2 minutes ago, Ebak said:

Good shout on the J-Type Naboo Star Skiff! I do think if they were going to do this they would have been more careful with the wording of the Naboo Handmaidens 'Decoyed' condition. However, the solution to that is simply have a ship ability: " Naboo Craftmanship: Treat this ship as a Naboo Roya N1 Starfighter for the purposes of game text. " Again the wording may have to be different to avoid a situation where they release cards just for the N1, but they can word it right.

Oh, this is a great idea.

While I do want the Twilight (G9 Rigger) The more I think about the J-Type, the more I like it. It was the first Nubian diplomat ship with weapons on it and if I go by my other Star Wars gaming love, the Star Wars RPG from FFG, the ship appears in Suns of Fortune and is equipped with twin medium laser cannons, so I can definitely see it being a 3 dice ship. Although it does say they are turret mounted and the blurb says:

"Though armed, the star skiff is not intended to engage in combat, instead relying on its speed and shielding to outrun any threats." So I can see the argument for a fixed arc but making it super manoeuvrable so it's easy to bring that arc against a target.

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We're also getting into the nitty gritty, but one card I want to see is:

Talent: Execute Order 66
Restrictions: Republic, Squad not containing a force user other than Anakin Skywalker or Chancellor Palpatine.

When you perform an attack, if you are stressed, you may reroll 1 attack die.

When you perform an attack, after defense dice are rolled if you have a lock on the defender, you may convert one evade result to a focus result. If the defender has any Force charges, you may instead convert one evade result into a blank result.

--

This seems wordy but there is a logical reason I want this to work the way it does:

1) I want it to be used on a squad with no other force user other than Anakin and/or Palp for thematic reasons. So mostly Clones.

2) I want to encourage the use with Palp as he can coordinate a ship but it gains a stress token, so I want it to work with stress tokens.

3) Of course, I want it to work great against anyone, but be exceptionally powerful against anyone with force charges, inactive or not. Thus the conversion of evades to blank. A debuff to defense makes sense given the Jedi basically let their guard down around the Clones which is what got them killed.

2 minutes ago, Ebak said:

While I do want the Twilight (G9 Rigger) The more I think about the J-Type, the more I like it. It was the first Nubian diplomat ship with weapons on it and if I go by my other Star Wars gaming love, the Star Wars RPG from FFG, the ship appears in Suns of Fortune and is equipped with twin medium laser cannons, so I can definitely see it being a 3 dice ship. Although it does say they are turret mounted and the blurb says:

"Though armed, the star skiff is not intended to engage in combat, instead relying on its speed and shielding to outrun any threats." So I can see the argument for a fixed arc but making it super manoeuvrable so it's easy to bring that arc against a target.

---

We're also getting into the nitty gritty, but one card I want to see is:

Talent: Execute Order 66
Restrictions: Republic, Squad not containing a force user other than Anakin Skywalker or Chancellor Palpatine.

When you perform an attack, if you are stressed, you may reroll 1 attack die.

When you perform an attack, after defense dice are rolled if you have a lock on the defender, you may convert one evade result to a focus result. If the defender has any Force charges, you may instead convert one evade result into a blank result.

--

This seems wordy but there is a logical reason I want this to work the way it does:

1) I want it to be used on a squad with no other force user other than Anakin and/or Palp for thematic reasons. So mostly Clones.

2) I want to encourage the use with Palp as he can coordinate a ship but it gains a stress token, so I want it to work with stress tokens.

3) Of course, I want it to work great against anyone, but be exceptionally powerful against anyone with force charges, inactive or not. Thus the conversion of evades to blank. A debuff to defense makes sense given the Jedi basically let their guard down around the Clones which is what got them killed.

Cool!

(also, you should apply to FFG)

Just now, Odanan said:

Cool!

(also, you should apply to FFG)

I do have a degree in game design from the University of Suffolk. Just saying FFG!

19 minutes ago, Odanan said:

Talent: Execute Order 66
Restrictions: Republic, Squad not containing a force user other than Anakin Skywalker or Chancellor Palpatine.

While thematic, part of the fun of X-wing is the 'what if' aspect of it, 'fanfic lists' are a fun time after all, so maybe the restriction is unnecessary. It may be hard to codify, for example, compared to 'must include' requirements, especially if later characters that also betrayed the Order are added to Republic, such as any of the inquisitors.

Also, love the design of rewarding you for not needing a TL that you have. Helps highlight a strength a 'naked' target lock has over a focus, and emphasizes the 'premeditated setup/murder' aspect of order 66!

1 minute ago, dezzmont said:

While thematic, part of the fun of X-wing is the 'what if' aspect of it, 'fanfic lists' are a fun time after all. It might just work as a 'non-jedi only' talent.

Also, love the design of rewarding you for not needing a TL that you have.

Making it focus based seemed too easy to obtain and too much of a "Don't worry if a ship ends up in arc, you can get the benefit regardless."

I wanted you to actively choose a ship for it to apply to with the cost of an action thus the lock, it also allows enemy players to maneuver around it which is not a bad thing. Sure, this could be done with a condition card, but it eliminates choice.

I also wanted there to be an effect similar to fire control where you can't spend the lock to reroll your dice if you use the main ability to negate defense dice so it forces the attacking player into a decision of "Do I reroll for more hits, or do I just hope he doesn't roll 1 more evade than he needs?" because you need to make that choice before the defender even rolls his defense dice.

If Sideous specifically coordinates you, as long as you have a lock (which you can get from the coordinate) and can attack that target, you get to reroll 1 die and negate the defences and have a focus to spend to make your attack stronger. The ability should be usable with most people, but when Sideous himself tells you 'Execute Order 66' you should get a bigger payoff especially since Palpatine can only coordinate one ship per round so only one ship will get the benefit of everything unless:

Another ship has previously taken a target lock and either performed a red maneuver and found a way to get a focus, or done a linked action that resulted in a focus, target lock and a stress, however currently no ship has that option. That requires setup from the other ships not being coordinated to get the benefit.

Overall, I wanted to avoid a 'Magical Christmas Land' (Thank you Hairy Nick) scenario where ships can roll attack dice, can spend a lock to reroll, focus up your attack, and then negate their defenses. I wanted there to be choice and decision making involved.

Furthermore, having target lock be a requirement also makes it work very well with Tarkin's ability to give out a target lock which is great as he saw the Jedi as unfit leaders within the war, more nice thematic echos within the mechanics. Finally, quite a few of the Clone Pilot Abilities involved getting locks, or getting a single reroll, such as Oddball since he does a red, gains a target lock if positioned right and can either spend the lock for its normal effect or gain the benefit of the action. Maybe this will make Oddball a thing! (I doubt it)

I'm not saying its perfect, and it most certainly needs refinement and testing, but it is a good starting point to leap off from and I think my methodology is a sound starting point.

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I did think of specifically requiring Palps on your squad but it did seem a tad restrictive and doesn't stop you from just taking other force users with you.

It does however solve the problem of my wording allowing you to take N-1 Anakin although I couldn't find a way around that without simply saying Anakin with a Force upgrade slot, and...eh?

Anyway, allowing lists that include it with Jedi while does appeal to the 'Fanfic' nature of the game. However, the point was to create a thematic card and also to encourage more use of the non-force users within the faction. Force users are already used abundantly in Republic.

The idea is to make the player to not play any force user, but allowing them to take Anakin and Palps for thematic purposes. If you want to use this card, your option is not take any Jedi, or take one and his name is Anakin...and/or a ship with a crew slot for Palps.

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Furthermore, I'd prefer you to directly call me an idiot if you think that's the case than make some snarky remark about "Oh, brilliant design there." That is if that was your intention to be snarky, tone doesn't exactly translate well to text.

4 minutes ago, Ebak said:

Furthermore, I'd prefer you to directly call me an idiot if you think that's the case than make some snarky remark about "Oh, brilliant design there." That is if that was your intention to be snarky, tone doesn't exactly translate well to text.

It was not. TLs struggle to be worthwhile without supporting tools, and this helps make it a more common action, and this also helps solve a problem where it can be too hard to stick damage on lots of 3 green force users with low attack ships without tons of passive mods. The fact it specifically targets force is a bit weird but it still works just fine on other characters even if it isn't as powerful.

I also sincerely think 'I am preparing a shot on this force using loser to use later and ideally hold for as long as possible' evokes order 66 really well. On top of that it sorta ties into The Empire's low key love affair with target locks, because 66 is sorta the big moment where The Republic's inevitable fall into The Empire is cemented.

I do get the desire to make it only Annie and Palps but I am not sure how you would represent it in the box where traditionally the requirements are listed. It would also be hard to convey in the spreadsheets. No force users besides Annie and Sidious might work, but that would obviously result in it working with Baby Annie. Maybe just 'No force users' period? After all, Sidious and Annie were busy! Or just don't because its your toy and it is, again, unironically a very cool one, and the logic that it helps showcase the non-jedi republic (Who definitely could use some showcasing) makes a ton of sense.

I do want to emphasize I actually like it a lot and think it is very clever overall.

9 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

It was not. TLs struggle to be worthwhile without supporting tools

In that case I apologise for my hostility.

25 minutes ago, Ebak said:

In that case I apologise for my hostility.

Its fine. Tense times and all that. I would love to see more things like this talent that increase the reward factor of sub-par actions and ships but don't actually improve upper end performance that much that could be cheap. Helps even out the entire cast of ships, and encourages new play dynamics that you don't normally see, which is everything an upgrade should be.

Thinking about it, the only bad thing this has is the same bad thing Juke has: The NPE of your dice being modded after you roll. But I think that is strongly mitigated by the fact it doesn't let you 'double dip' offense and defense easily, like Juke does on high initiative, so unlike Juke if you survive getting 66'd you can blast that dumb clone right back. while with Juke your now not only increasing the damage 'floor' your taking, but decreasing your own damage ceiling your dealing, so I don't think it is that big a deal. Not being able to do damage very consistently is generally more NPE than taking a bit more damage than your initial estimate based on seeing the dice, because its REALLY not fun to flail and do nothing.

Also introduces more 'Get this guy off of me!' antics like the Taxi, which is always fun and, again, really fits into order 66 quite well on a level above and beyond it being a transition point to the empire, because it makes a high value ship, usually with force, feel HUNTED. It successfully evokes a lot of feelings its trying to evoke.

Seriously stellar stuff. I think the only things that would make it hard for this to instantly go official as is is figuring out how to crack the 'convey the requirement succinctly in a 1 inch by 1 half inch zone' nut, but I am sure someone could figure some way out to denote the requirement who is more clever than me. Even the fact it is a 'hate' mechanic seems pretty well tuned (It doesn't blow things out if it succesfuly hates, doesn't do nothing if it doesn't, which is the sweet spot for hate.)

This is the kinda stuff that makes me wish X-wing had more custom card contests or threads like other collectible communities do. It lets the limits of the design get pushed in a way that reveals a lot of creativity and makes you realize you want things you never thought to want.

EDIT: Maybe put the restriction in the text, phrasing it as "As long as your squad includes no force users other than..." and change the restriction from naming specific characters to requiring the dark side tag, or the inquisitor tag. That allows for future inquisitors who may participate in 66, locks out Little Orphan Annie, and creates the unlikely and non-competitive but highly thematic potential for a scenario where you have some random Jedi needing to die to start the pain train. So it doesn't have to fit in the requirements box, but instead can clearly only work with those specific characters.

Also, another thing to gush about with this: If it is deliberately undercosted, it almost creates a 'sectorial' like effect, from Infinity, where your rewarded for dramatically limiting your options by getting a new thing that adds versatility and efficiency to your faction without increasing raw power too much. Makes me think that is a potent way to encourage more thematic listbuilding in general (ex: Rebel Kitchen Sink with All named, All unique ships, all with hyperdrives, Hutt lists, ect).

18 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

No force users besides Annie and Sidious might work, but that would obviously result in it working with Baby Annie.

Any permutation either allows Baby Anakin, or doesn't allow Anakin at all. I did think about excluding any force user with a talent slot, but that is hyper focusing it down.

I do feel very strongly that Anakin should be allowed and so should Palpatine. Baby Anakin be damned.

There are two ways around it, but could be considered clunky but introduce interesting design ideas:

Option 1: Define Define the Delta 7 and Eta-2 Anakin as a Dark and Light Side Force User, and assign a 'Dark or Light' alignment to the force using crew and gunner upgrade cards. Then have the restriction say: Republic, Squad must not contain any light side force user except for Anakin Skywalker.

Since Sideous is a Dark Side force user, he can still be taken because the card specified any 'Light Side' force user. Baby Anakin would still be considered Light Side and so would be excluded.

-

Option 2: Give Anakin himself a title that makes him Dark Side and use the same restriction as above.

Title Card - You Shall Be Known As...
Restrictions: Anakin Skywalker, Initative 6
Card Text: You are no longer considered Light Side. You are considered Dark Side and may equip Dark Side Force Upgrades.

Then have the Order 66 restriction say "Republic, Squad must not contain any light side force user."

This solves the above problem, I did consider having the text included say "You may treat yourself as 'Darth Vader' for the purposes of card text." with the idea that the Order 66 cards restriction specifically calls out "Republic, any squad with no force user except Palpatine and Darth Vader"
Although this does suddenly make 0-0-0 and BT-2 equipable by Republic.

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Overall, I actually like the idea of Anakin being able to equip dark side upgrades for an additional cost to represent his fall. Again more thematics, but overall this is being used to solve a problem that doesn't exist and at the end of the day there are probably much better ways to allow you to use Palps and Anakin only while not accounting for Little Anakin Skywalker, even if you say "Anakin Skywalker (Initiative 6)" I'd say that get's the point across.

I know its really playing to theme, and its clunky...but I do think it works. Even if you fly both Anakin and Palps together, you still only have one Jedi ship since Palps has to go on a crew carrier that's being flown by a Clone or non-Jedi pilot.

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As for being useful against other ships is weird. That is to avoid a situation where you are not against force users and the card becomes useless.

You ninja'd my (bad habit) edit. I forgot Republic Annie isn't a dark sider (yet) so a title could work. It is clunky, but future proofs the card and ultimately is probably the angle it would need to take.

That, or we can just allow Darth Jake Lloyd. Would be a funny meme and it isn't THAT bad of a compromise considering Sidious and Annie weren't active in space at that time anyway, and its funny to imagine a reality where Palpatine enacts order 66 with an 8 year old. It also serves the mechanical function of preventing you from getting force points on anything more than one pilot and one crew (assuming we don't get a darksider inquisitor like Trillia or something down the line).

Quote

As for being useful against other ships is weird. That is to avoid a situation where you are not against force users and the card becomes useless.

Yep! A huge problem with a lot of 'hate' mechanics is their hate is too pure and too intense. There is a reason most color protection effects in MTG got phased out in exchange for hate mechanics that still focus on some colors more than others, but in theory are colorblind. Hexproof is way more anti-red, black, and blue, than anti-white or green, but it still works on many white and green effects, for example, because its more 'protection from control mechanics' than 'protection from colors associated with control.' I think you found a similar (if implemented differently) balance where it clearly leans towards hate but is still a useful general mechanic and doesn't actively dumpster force users even though it is better vs them.

5 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

You ninja'd me. I forgot Republic Annie isn't a dark sider (yet) so a title could work. It is clunky, but future proofs the card and ultimately is probably the angle it would need to take.

That, or we can just allow Darth Jake Lloyd. Would be a funny meme and it isn't THAT bad of a compromise considering Sidious and Annie weren't active in space at that time anyway, and its funny to imagine a reality where Palpatine enacts order 66 with an 8 year old. It also serves the mechanical function of preventing you from getting force points on anything more than one pilot and one crew (assuming we don't get a darksider inquisitor like Trillia or something down the line).

Never say never, but I think if we were to get Trilla in the game she'd be an Imperial card moreso than than a Republic because she's so closely associated with the Empire.

As for future proofing us getting more inquisitors who went with Palpatine. That would just lead to the same problem we have now. "I'll take an all Republic squad all with force users". Thematically interesting but the intention was to limit the amount of force users in your list intentionally to gain a benefit and encourage diverse play so while I 100% agree that getting those inquisitors would be cool, I think it's more appropriate to have them in their 'Jedi' form and only have Anakin and Palps be the ones usable with an Order 66 card.

As an asside, some unintentional design results: If you come up against a mirror order 66 match where your opponent is using Clones, Anakin and/or Palp...you want to flip the 'Chancellor Palpatine' card as soon as possible as his ability will screw you over if not, which again is very thematically appropriate.

Instead of a title, maybe a force ability (restricted to PS6 Anakin) to change to dark side. It can have a cost. Maybe an ability that allows force to change eyeballs to crits against lightside force users.

8 hours ago, Ebak said:

While the blaster on it can swivel, I think making it a turret ship wouldn't fit it. It's shown to be exceptionally maneuverable in the show itself so I'd like to see it fly appropriately, or at least have access to the barrel roll, and give it a forward arc and a cannon slot.

It would be strange for it not to have a turret arc. There is this sequence in TCW movie where the crew having trouble moving the cannon is one of the main issues. It sounds like red rotate action to me. Worth noting that only one of three cannons can rotate, so it would be in line with the lore to make it beneficial to keep the arc pointed forward. 2 dice forward arc, 2 dice single turret arc, red rotate, but you get an additional die when the turret is pointing forward, or something like that.

Another unique aspect of the G9 is that it's asymmetrical:

An engine setup like that it should make it much easier to turn right than left. With how rare asymmetry is, it would be a shame not to do something with it.

If FFG wants to go full gimmick they could restrict the turret from pointing left.

5 hours ago, eMeM said:

2 dice forward arc, 2 dice single turret arc, red rotate, but you get an additional die when the turret is pointing forward, or something like that.

Or just give it the gunner slot.

5 hours ago, eMeM said:

engine setup like that it should make it much easier to turn right than left. With how rare asymmetry is, it would be a shame not to do something with it.

So similar to the JM5k's dial but flipped?

5 hours ago, eMeM said:

If FFG wants to go full gimmick they could restrict the turret from pointing left.

Works for me.

On 8/8/2020 at 7:14 AM, FTS Gecko said:

As for what I'd like to see? Well... I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I'm really not psyched for "Resistance B-Wings / Y-Wings, First Order Bombers" etc. If all you have to go on is cloning existing ships, then why bother? Personally I'd much rather see them get something unique and distinct - like reprints of the Upsilon and StarFortress, or more unique ships from the Resistance cartoon - than slight upgrades and palette swaps of existing ships from existing factions.

I agree that I'm not excited for new B-Wings or Y-Wings, but on the other hand, the FO Bomber is a pretty different take on a TIE, and I'm curious what they would do to make it different. It's shielded and I think it's hyperdrive-equipped, so it might even be more similar to a Punisher.

Not only that but the FO doesn't have any ordnance-focused ships at the moment, or any that can carry payloads or reload at all. It's my second choice after the Xi. Now the Whisper, Dagger, etc? Those aren't that interesting to me.

The Whispers have some interesting possibilities, imo. I like the idea of the base version having cloak, and being a bit like the Phantom. Obviously, not a great idea with the Whisper Interceptor, with Kylo Ren. But there are some possibilities to play around with there.

26 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

The Whispers have some interesting possibilities, imo. I like the idea of the base version having cloak, and being a bit like the Phantom. Obviously, not a great idea with the Whisper Interceptor, with Kylo Ren. But there are some possibilities to play around with there.

Kylo with Cloak sound like a terrible design space to have to build around. It had sensor confusing technology which isn't cloaking by any means, so it doesn't fit lorewise either. Give it a jam action, and that can facilitate the sensor confusing tech.

As for differentiating it from the Silencer, simply replacing the Autothrusters ship ability with something else would give it an entirely different play style, as I am hoping the Eta-2 does for the Delta-7.

I know the FO is getting a crew carrier in the Xi shuttle, but I'd like to see the Night Buzzard, as well.

Which is why I kind of like the idea of the standard Whisper playing around with cloak, while the Inceptor model (ie Kylo Ren) play around with jam. Given the existence of the Silencer and Baron, probably not have their abilities be related to maneuverability. Play around with them. I think the lore about their tech makes some interesting possibilities.

If the Whisper (both versions) is introduced into the game, I would hazard a guess that the standard version would have a similar stat line and dial to the S/F and hence a cloak ability might not be too OP. Interceptor version would definitely suit a jam ability, although I think the stats, dial and Kylo’s ability may need to be altered to prevent the ship being OP. I’m all for the Whisper being introduced though, the interceptor version is a sweet looking ship.

I am actually in agreement with @ClassicalMoser , the TIE Whisper doesn't interest me. I can see an argument for the Dagger being the Advance V1 equivilant, but I am more interested in a munitions ship like an FO Bomber.

I don't play FO at all but both versions of the Whisper seem very uninteresting to me. The interceptor version would be a third Tie interceptor type ship for the faction while the alternate Whisper looks like it's more or less just a slightly different Tie SF. They could be made to be mechanically different from those other ships they seem to be copying, but having something completely different sounds better overall to me. The Bomber would be a much more interesting choice that could allow FO players to step away from the archetypes they currently favor instead of just giving those archetypes a re-skin and minor tweaks.

16 hours ago, Hippie Moosen said:

I don't play FO at all but both versions of the Whisper seem very uninteresting to me. The interceptor version would be a third Tie interceptor type ship for the faction while the alternate Whisper looks like it's more or less just a slightly different Tie SF. They could be made to be mechanically different from those other ships they seem to be copying, but having something completely different sounds better overall to me. The Bomber would be a much more interesting choice that could allow FO players to step away from the archetypes they currently favor instead of just giving those archetypes a re-skin and minor tweaks.

Yes yes, but think of the minis .

Yeah even as a big FO fan, i can only really see a place for the Kylo Whisper, as at last the model is different enough and could have some different abilities and looks cool.

Until this forum and posts about the visual dictionary, i had no idea that the ties in RoS were a) not SFs and b) also called Tie Whispers. Maybe they can just be a title/config card for the SF.