I think on the whole that you can dislike a movie or movie series for reasons other than political/social ones. Sometimes a movie just stinks.

10 hours ago, Supertoe said:

I think on the whole that you can dislike a movie or movie series for reasons other than political/social ones. Sometimes a movie just stinks.

Sure! But the Sequels were very entertaining. And absolutely, people have plenty to say about them that IS fair criticism, but a lot of those people also think that Attack of the Clones was a classic, so what can I even make of that?

I just chalk it up to differing tastes. But you also have to admit that diversity drove a huge segment of (white, male) fans away because deep down, they wanted their heroes to look like them. And that’s sad.

I don’t (for example) dislike Attack of the Clones for political reasons. I dislike it because it’s just flat out painful to listen to the inane dialogue. I don’t care what gender or racial identity the heroes have. They sound like idiots. And if someone is coming at the Sequels from a similar angle, I mean, I can only acknowledge that those films aren’t perfect, but I liked them all the same. There are a things which could bother me about them, sure. But in the end, I found them fun enough and entertaining enough that those flaws never bugged me much.

3 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Sure! But the Sequels were very entertaining. And absolutely, people have plenty to say about them that IS fair criticism, but a lot of those people also think that Attack of the Clones was a classic, so what can I even make of that?

I just chalk it up to differing tastes. But you also have to admit that diversity drove a huge segment of (white, male) fans away because deep down, they wanted their heroes to look like them. And that’s sad.

I don’t (for example) dislike Attack of the Clones for political reasons. I dislike it because it’s just flat out painful to listen to the inane dialogue. I don’t care what gender or racial identity the heroes have. They sound like idiots. And if someone is coming at the Sequels from a similar angle, I mean, I can only acknowledge that those films aren’t perfect, but I liked them all the same. There are a things which could bother me about them, sure. But in the end, I found them fun enough and entertaining enough that those flaws never bugged me much.

All of the dialogue in the prequels was just abysmal. "I don't like sand", "If you're not with me, you're my enemy", and "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" are just some of the best/worst offenders.

Actually, I take that back: TPM didn't have terrible dialogue, in the context of the movie. Skywalker's lines were corny, sure, but he's a 10 year old kid, so it fits, contextually. I actually consider TPM to be the best overall movie of the prequels: Not terrible dialogue, decent to good acting, and the most important thing: it at least makes sense that 10 year old Anakin would be whiny.

10 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I just chalk it up to differing tastes. But you also have to admit that diversity drove a huge segment of (white, male) fans away because deep down, they wanted their heroes to look like them. And that’s sad.

I've been trying really hard not to comment and derail this thread any further but this right here is a load of MsM BS! I can automatically tell Robin DiAngelo fanboy. If you like films that have weak shoe horned story that went from one derivative grand set piece to another, where the characters are lead by the plot points good for you. Some people just enjoy the visual splendour and that's good for them.

Others like myself like films with heart, character arcs and overarching moral tale, which the sequel trilogy had none of, or just tried to recycle from the previous films. Prequel trilogy had it's flaws, mainly dialogue but the heart, character arcs and moral tale were all there because GL is very versed in such things.

However what drove many fans away was forced diversity and political agenda pushing, while it also tore down the legacy to make their agenda protagonist seem more meaningful. People want to go to watch these films for escapism and not to be force fed a critical theory fad coming out of California.

Just like DiAngelo you're projecting your own bias when you think people just want to see people that look like them. Most of the same fans are fans of characters like Ripley, Sarah Conner, Janeway, Sisco and blade, as tiny example. They have no issues relating to peoples struggles because above all these are human (vampire) story's and struggles, which transcend race and gender.

As it stands most folks who hated the sequel trilogy have praised the Mandalorian and love characters like Asoka and Cara Dune. Personally can't wait for the Asoka series. However these two actresses a taking crap from same people that scream diversity! So the narrative doesn't add up does it.

Most of all I'm not going to be made to feel bad because I'm a white male that didn't like what Disney (and many other studios) are offering up!

On 12/12/2020 at 1:50 PM, ForceSensitive said:

For one single ship, out of a two second clip, from a forgettable third rate movie of a entirely forgettable on the whole trilogy... Who could blame you for forgetting it? I'd call you lucky for such a feat 😂 😜

If we start saying "No, we can't have that ship, it only appeared for a few seconds" then we'd have to eliminate the B-Wing, TIE Interceptor and more. It's a ship, it exists, it is a viable ship for X-Wing.

5 hours ago, SavouryRain said:

All of the dialogue in the prequels was just abysmal. "I don't like sand", "If you're not with me, you're my enemy", and "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" are just some of the best/worst offenders.

Actually, I take that back: TPM didn't have terrible dialogue, in the context of the movie. Skywalker's lines were corny, sure, but he's a 10 year old kid, so it fits, contextually. I actually consider TPM to be the best overall movie of the prequels: Not terrible dialogue, decent to good acting, and the most important thing: it at least makes sense that 10 year old Anakin would be whiny.

"But I wanted to go to Toché station to pick up some power converters!" What a classic...line.

Star Wars has always been corny as ****. In my opinion fans selectively choose when to criticise an aspect of Star Wars. One of the main reasons I've tried to avoid discussing "Fans VS the squels" for the past 5 years yet I seem to keep getting the same "sequels suck and here's why" bull shoved in my face on Facebook. I get it, you didn't like it...can you now shut up about it?

This is the exact same way I felt about the prequels. I enjoyed them, they weren’t perfect but there was an overwhelming sense of ‘don’t talk about them or if you do, it must only to to bash them’

My own fandom has made me ashamed of engaging with it. Not saying you can’t dislike something but I feel we have gone beyond simple dislike.

while I am at it, it really grinds my gears that fans are all too happy to wag their finger at Disney and Lucasfilm for the failings but fail to credit them for Rogue One and Mandalorian and credit Favrau and Felonies despite them being responsible for hiring those involved. That’s...ridiculous. Give credit to Disney where it is due and critique them where it is due. Don’t be all “hurr durr Disney sucks but Mando is great...but that doesn’t arbitrarily count as Disney because I says so...”

8 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

And absolutely, people have plenty to say about them that IS fair criticism, but a lot of those people also think that Attack of the Clones was a classic, so what can I even make of that?

I just chalk it up to differing tastes. But you also have to admit that diversity drove a huge segment of (white, male) fans away because deep down, they wanted their heroes to look like them. And that’s sad.

Sounds a lot more like it is just easier for you if the films are "good" and that those who don't like them do not like them because they are bad sad people. Saves you from tackling any of your own inadequacies with regards to identifying the quality of a work of art while allowing you to feel good about being a good person who likes good things. You don't have to re-examine any of your already held notions or the paradigms you view the world with. You don't have to consider that something you don't like can be good and something you do like can be bad. "Bad people think it is bad and I think it is good therefore I'm a good person and I get to feel good about feeling good about the movie!"

2 hours ago, Ebak said:

If we start saying "No, we can't have that ship, it only appeared for a few seconds" then we'd have to eliminate the B-Wing, TIE Interceptor and more. It's a ship, it exists, it is a viable ship for X-Wing.

Not to mention tugboats. As boring as most of the sequel ship designs are (just being reskins of existing ships half the time), this ship that appeared for two second and then exploded is actually really cool.

2 hours ago, Matanui3 said:

Not to mention tugboats. As boring as most of the sequel ship designs are (just being reskins of existing ships half the time), this ship that appeared for two second and then exploded is actually really cool.

Yeah, or if we take it to an extreme. What about the Punishing One, which has exactly....0 minutes of screen time at all.

There was this discussion when the Quadjumper came out with calls that "Why is a ship on screen for 2 seconds and claim to fame is getting blown up getting a release."

People will come up with rather stupid reasons to stop something they don't like for being included.

That being said it's not that @ForceSensitive was arguing for it not being included, but more that he was taking another (for the love of god when will they end) jab at the sequel trilogy.

1 hour ago, Ebak said:

Yeah, or if we take it to an extreme. What about the Punishing One, which has exactly....0 minutes of screen time at all.

There was this discussion when the Quadjumper came out with calls that "Why is a ship on screen for 2 seconds and claim to fame is getting blown up getting a release."

People will come up with rather stupid reasons to stop something they don't like for being included.

That being said it's not that @ForceSensitive was arguing for it not being included, but more that he was taking another (for the love of god when will they end) jab at the sequel trilogy.

Speaking of which... how about the people who say “Bah, the sequels didn’t have enough ships”? Ummm, go back and watch the original trilogy and do the math. People are blinded by Legends content and confuse the two as being the same thing. Were some sequel designs updates or re-skins of existing designs? Of course, but design serves the story, not the other way around.

If the US Navy can replace the Hornet with the Super Hornet, why then can’t the New Republic replace a T-65 with a T-70, if that’s what the writers deem appropriate?

Why are people arguing against including new ships? Do you not want new content?

9 hours ago, Tyhar7 said:

I've been trying really hard not to comment and derail this thread any further but this right here is a load of MsM BS! I can automatically tell Robin DiAngelo fanboy. If you like films that have weak shoe horned story that went from one derivative grand set piece to another, where the characters are lead by the plot points good for you. Some people just enjoy the visual splendour and that's good for them.

Others like myself like films with heart, character arcs and overarching moral tale, which the sequel trilogy had none of, or just tried to recycle from the previous films. Prequel trilogy had it's flaws, mainly dialogue but the heart, character arcs and moral tale were all there because GL is very versed in such things.

However what drove many fans away was forced diversity and political agenda pushing, while it also tore down the legacy to make their agenda protagonist seem more meaningful. People want to go to watch these films for escapism and not to be force fed a critical theory fad coming out of California.

Just like DiAngelo you're projecting your own bias when you think people just want to see people that look like them. Most of the same fans are fans of characters like Ripley, Sarah Conner, Janeway, Sisco and blade, as tiny example. They have no issues relating to peoples struggles because above all these are human (vampire) story's and struggles, which transcend race and gender.

As it stands most folks who hated the sequel trilogy have praised the Mandalorian and love characters like Asoka and Cara Dune. Personally can't wait for the Asoka series. However these two actresses a taking crap from same people that scream diversity! So the narrative doesn't add up does it.

Most of all I'm not going to be made to feel bad because I'm a white male that didn't like what Disney (and many other studios) are offering up!

I’m sorry, but this whole line of argument is falling flat on me because I don’t know who Robin DiAngelo is. Nor am I particularly interested in hearing about them. I also don’t know what Janeway or Sisco or all those other characters have to do with anything. I take it you listen to some podcast or other? Or read a blog? I don’t.

I’m a white guy. The theories I have regarding (some) white guys not liking the films because of the lack of heroes who are white and male are theories that I came up with after reading and talking to a lot of angry white guys. I don’t think they ALL dislike the films for these reasons. I’ve already acknowledged that the films aren’t perfect, and a lot of people seem to dislike them for reasons like plot, dialogue, pacing, story, etc. But there is sometimes a palpable undercurrent of racism and/or sexism when discussing these films. I have observed it. Don’t tell me it isn’t there. AT THE SAME TIME: I’m also not accusing anyone here of anything; I don’t think it’s particularly fair to hang labels like “racist” and “sexist” on people I haven’t met or spoken to at length, and disliking a movie or three makes you neither of those things anyway.

I just think it’s suspicious that at the height of the Trump presidency and MeToo, that TLJ should be made... a movie in which all the white guys are wrong all day... and people get up in arms about it. I think part of that film, and part of the fan backlash to it, were indelible products of their times.

@Frimmel : There are good and bad people who dislike the Sequels. Some of them have good reasons, some of them don’t. I even think some of the good people have bad reasons, and some of the bad people have good reasons, for disliking the Sequels. The thing is, there’s quite a lot of nuance to the issue, but if you insist on putting things in boxes, and it makes you feel better to label me a snobby social justice warrior and bad film critic, or whatever, you do what you need to do, man. I don’t think that’s the case, but I’m definitely biased toward thinking I have impeccable taste and a keen critical mind. I’m the best film critic I know!

I DID totally say two pages ago that I didn’t want to engage in this.

I like all my favorite movies. Every one of them. Why wouldn't I trust my own judgement?

10 hours ago, Tyhar7 said:

I can automatically tell Robin DiAngelo fanboy.

Robin DiAngelo is the author of the Book White Fragility. A primer on her experience as a diversity trainer and sociologist on the subject of confronting the defensive response of white people to even just discussions of racism. I had to go look it up because it sounded familiar. Turns out White Fragility is the book my mom lent me from her book club and I've been reading at work in off time 😳 . It's a good read, but I'm only up to ch3.

4 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I’m sorry, but this whole line of argument is falling flat on me because I don’t know who Robin DiAngelo is. Nor am I particularly interested in hearing about them. I also don’t know what Janeway or Sisco or all those other characters have to do with anything. I take it you listen to some podcast or other? Or read a blog? I don’t.

I’m a white guy. The theories I have regarding (some) white guys not liking the films because of the lack of heroes who are white and male are theories that I came up with after reading and talking to a lot of angry white guys. I don’t think they ALL dislike the films for these reasons. I’ve already acknowledged that the films aren’t perfect, and a lot of people seem to dislike them for reasons like plot, dialogue, pacing, story, etc. But there is sometimes a palpable undercurrent of racism and/or sexism when discussing these films. I have observed it. Don’t tell me it isn’t there. AT THE SAME TIME: I’m also not accusing anyone here of anything; I don’t think it’s particularly fair to hang labels like “racist” and “sexist” on people I haven’t met or spoken to at length, and disliking a movie or three makes you neither of those things anyway.

I just think it’s suspicious that at the height of the Trump presidency and MeToo, that TLJ should be made... a movie in which all the white guys are wrong all day... and people get up in arms about it. I think part of that film, and part of the fan backlash to it, were indelible products of their times.

@Frimmel : There are good and bad people who dislike the Sequels. Some of them have good reasons, some of them don’t. I even think some of the good people have bad reasons, and some of the bad people have good reasons, for disliking the Sequels. The thing is, there’s quite a lot of nuance to the issue, but if you insist on putting things in boxes, and it makes you feel better to label me a snobby social justice warrior and bad film critic, or whatever, you do what you need to do, man. I don’t think that’s the case, but I’m definitely biased toward thinking I have impeccable taste and a keen critical mind. I’m the best film critic I know!

I DID totally say two pages ago that I didn’t want to engage in this.

I'm sorry if I made assumptions. However you made a point to mention White male fraginlity in an earlier post and the author of White fragility is Robin DiAngelo, so you can see why someone would leap to that conclusion.

I think the under current of sexism and racism is not generated by the films or the fans but the media pushing that narrative to make it seem that way, purely for clicks. Sure, you'll meet the occasional guy that thinks girl leads suck or something, but I think that's the exception. Anyway I don't want to derail the thread anymore than it has been so I'll leave it there.

Sooooo...

What are the chances to see a final product for solo play?

7 minutes ago, LUZ_TAK said:

Sooooo...

What are the chances to see a final product for solo play?

I hope so!

6 hours ago, Rmcarrier1 said:

Speaking of which... how about the people who say “Bah, the sequels didn’t have enough ships”? Ummm, go back and watch the original trilogy and do the math. People are blinded by Legends content and confuse the two as being the same thing. Were some sequel designs updates or re-skins of existing designs? Of course, but design serves the story, not the other way around.

If the US Navy can replace the Hornet with the Super Hornet, why then can’t the New Republic replace a T-65 with a T-70, if that’s what the writers deem appropriate?

I think it is more that people don't like that there isn't enough 'new' and what does appear seemingly is derivative.

I feel this is a bit of a double edged sword. The prequels are often critiqued based on their overly complex ships that look 'more advanced' than the original trilogy, or don't fit the 'aesthetic of Star Wars' when it comes to ships like the N1 because...y'know, the logic of a rich and opulant world like Naboo using hard lined junkers that look like they almost belong in a junk pile would totally make more sense than a sleek, beautiful starship that is designed for form over function. I mean it's just a Royal Starfighter...what does that even mean? Royal Starfighter...

As you can see I have a chip on my shoulder based on people saying what is and isn't Star Wars considering such a large universe. Doing a T-70 X-Wing was a safe thing as it was intended to invoke the feeling of the OT, while people dismissed it as lazy. However, if they made a new ship it would have just been "Oh, it's nice but I wish we had X-Wings, X-Wings are cool" you can't win.

This cis-gender white male right-winger loves every minute of every Star Wars movie (a nd that includes Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure with the strong female lead Cindel) and every character of every color and species in them.

(Also, if you dislike anything Star Wars you are a nerf herder...phobe).

1 hour ago, Scrivner said:

This cis-gender white male right-winger loves every minute of every Star Wars movie (a nd that includes Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure with the strong female lead Cindel) and every character of every color and species in them.

(Also, if you dislike anything Star Wars you are a nerf herder...phobe).

I can’t like this comment enough. And don’t forget the *original* Baby Yoda: Teek !

Caravan of Courage all you want. But if you unironically enjoy the Holiday Special you need help.

3 hours ago, Rmcarrier1 said:

I can’t like this comment enough. And don’t forget the *original* Baby Yoda: Teek !

Teek = Awesome.

The Sequels did to Star Wars what Michael Bay did to TMNT.

Some people like that trash, other people have taste. its not a political issue

Not that I want this ship in the game (nothing special about it), but I just found out there is a game called Spaceship Battles. I wonder if the Techno Union Fighter is in scale with X-Wing...