2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Maybe? Moving last is really really good. I think people undervalue it sometimes.

For me, it's not about me moving last and reacting to my opponent. It's so my opponent can't move last and react to me.

3 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

Well if you bid 15, there will be somebody who bid 16. Or 19 - as I have read in a report today..

And then you will have 15 points which you didn't spend with nothing to show for them, really..

 (ok, there is some value for MoV purposes..)

Sure. For me 190 pts seems like an entirely reasonable thing to target with a ton of these 3 ship lists.

If your bringing just 3 ships anyway you have already compromised a great deal on so many things. Why not invest in a bid?

4 minutes ago, SmittLoaf said:

For me, it's not about me moving last and reacting to my opponent. It's so my opponent can't move last and react to me.



I mean....I want my Proton Torpedo to get a lock and yours to not. Or I want my end game ace to move last. These are reasonable things to prioritize and a bid gets you there in a meaningful # of games.

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Maybe? Moving last is really really good. I think people undervalue it sometimes.

I think it's quite the opposite. I think too many people over-value moving last. They grow reliant on ace-repositioning to correct their mistakes and the moment they miss the bid they're beat. I've faced too many people who declare they lost the game in the bidding stage, never mind that mistakes made on the map decided their fate.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I mean....I want my Proton Torpedo to get a lock and yours to not. Or I want my end game ace to move last. These are reasonable things to prioritize and a bid gets you there in a meaningful # of games.

Oh I quite agree.

2 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I think it's quite the opposite. I think too many people over-value moving last. They grow reliant on ace-repositioning to correct their mistakes and the moment they miss the bid they're beat. I've faced too many people who declare they lost the game in the bidding stage, never mind that mistakes made on the map decided their fate.

Yea well statements like that are ridiculous outside of mirrors typically.

But there equal # of times people say "You dont have to move last to win".

Sure its true but its a very honorable thing to say. It doesnt mean moving last is somehow bad or not worth trying to achieve.

And again if your taking 3 aces.....why not try to move last. How badly do you need that Ablative Plating really.

2 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I think it's quite the opposite. I think too many people over-value moving last. They grow reliant on ace-repositioning to correct their mistakes and the moment they miss the bid they're beat. I've faced too many people who declare they lost the game in the bidding stage, never mind that mistakes made on the map decided their fate.

Part of it is you can win with your ace moving first, but it is harder. In the setting of a tournament trying to minimize the difficulty of as many games as possible is a worthy goal. Mental fatigue is real for sure.

As far as my Crossroads list went, I was at 190 because I had nothing else I wanted to do with the points. Didn't want to take a seismic on Kavil because obviously quadjumpers want the rocks. No proton bomb because Kavil's 2 shields were the only shields in the list. And no upgrades on the Quads because I did not want them to cost a point more than 28.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Yea well statements like that are ridiculous outside of mirrors typically.

But there equal # of times people say "You dont have to move last to win".

Sure its true but its a very honorable thing to say. It doesnt mean moving last is somehow bad or not worth trying to achieve.

And again if your taking 3 aces.....why not try to move last. How badly do you need that Ablative Plating really.

Obviously moving last is good. It's easy mode when the game is about arcs again.

So just take biggest bid your squad allows you.

But I would never go as far as to compromise the squad composition by choosing a cheaper, but suboptimal component just to get bigger bid.

2 minutes ago, SmittLoaf said:

Part of it is you can win with your ace moving first, but it is harder. In the setting of a tournament trying to minimize the difficulty of as many games as possible is a worthy goal. Mental fatigue is real for sure.

 As far as my Crossroads list went, I was at 190 because I had nothing else I wanted to do with the points. Didn't want to take a seismic on Kavil because obviously quadjumpers want the rocks. No proton bomb because Kavil's 2 shields were the only shields in the list. And no upgrades on the Quads because I did not want them to cost a point more than 28.

Yea and that Kavil cant lean into medium base boost to just always lock stuff.

If people used more efficiency lists during swiss than yea bids become less valuable.

But they dont. And they wont.

So bid its fine.

3 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

 But I would never go as far as to compromise the squad composition by choosing a cheaper, but suboptimal component just to get bigger bid.

I think thats not a factor until your below 190 pts with most of these trip ace squads that dont involve Vader.

4 minutes ago, SmittLoaf said:

Part of it is you can win with your ace moving first, but it is harder. In the setting of a tournament trying to minimize the difficulty of as many games as possible is a worthy goal. Mental fatigue is real for sure.

As far as my Crossroads list went, I was at 190 because I had nothing else I wanted to do with the points. Didn't want to take a seismic on Kavil because obviously quadjumpers want the rocks. No proton bomb because Kavil's 2 shields were the only shields in the list. And no upgrades on the Quads because I did not want them to cost a point more than 28.

As an aside, I am totally going to try out Kavil + Quads. That looks fun.

6 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Yea well statements like that are ridiculous outside of mirrors typically.

But there equal # of times people say "You dont have to move last to win".

Sure its true but its a very honorable thing to say. It doesnt mean moving last is somehow bad or not worth trying to achieve.

And again if your taking 3 aces.....why not try to move last. How badly do you need that Ablative Plating really.

Not disagreeing that it's easier to move last. I was responding more to your statement that people under-value that ability. Could be my meta, but Veteran Instincts and aces have always been popular to try to gain that advantage here. I could be wrong of course, but it does seem to be the opposite in these parts.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I think thats not a factor until your below 190 pts with most of these trip ace squads that dont involve Vader.

That might be correct, but also might not.

Is it better to have 10 points bid, or to have Shield Upgrade on Soontir, which can easily save your bacon in couple games in the tournament?

Or instead of the bid upgrade one of your ships to a TIE Defender, who can carry your squad regardless if you're going first or second?

I think it's not possible to find the right answer in a vacuum.

2 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Not disagreeing that it's easier to move last. I was responding more to your statement that people under-value that ability. Could be my meta, but Veteran Instincts and aces have always been popular to try to gain that advantage here. I could be wrong of course, but it does seem to be the opposite in these parts.

Yea thats universal. The classic..."Pssh your aces are moving last...guess I lose, I hate this game" makes no sense.

My point is more that good players who have learned to play moving first sometimes talk themselves out of taking a bid when really....they probably could have just taken the bid.

2 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

Is it better to have 10 points bid, or to have Shield Upgrade on Soontir, which can easily save your bacon in couple games in the tournament?

Does it though?

Just now, Boom Owl said:

Does it though?

Well, I have recently seen quite a few Soontirs being one shotted, or crippled by an untimely crit, both in my game nights and on the streams.

Some of these players did have quite generous bids.. Didn't win the game for them.

2 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

Well, I have recently seen quite a few Soontirs being one shotted, or crippled by an untimely crit, both in my game nights and on the streams.

Some of these players did have quite generous bids.. Didn't win the game for them.

Maybe theres something to HP on Soontir. Id wager those 8 pts are better invested in a bid though as an example.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Maybe theres something to HP on Soontir. Id wager those 8 pts are better invested in a bid though as an example.

Ok, that might be true, but I feel it's also meta depending. If most of the ships which you're facing are I5s anyway, then more durable Soontir with smaller bid is in my opinion the correct choice. If I6s are the hot stuff, then most likely the bid is the way to go..

And based on the current tournament results, I would say we have the I5 meta currently, for the most part..

6 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

 And based on the current tournament results, I would say we have the I5 meta currently, for the most part..

For me its about committing one way or the other.

If im taking 3 aces...im going to commit to a bid.

If im not going to bid...im taking something genuinely efficient with more ships in it.

Unless something in my list wants to be fat and run to time i guess.

I actually dont know the correct answer to any of this...

I just know that people oversimplify everything and are usually wrong about all of it.

1 minute ago, baranidlo said:

Ok, that might be true, but I feel it's also meta depending. If most of the ships which you're facing are I5s anyway, then more durable Soontir with smaller bid is in my opinion the correct choice. If I6s are the hot stuff, then most likely the bid is the way to go..

And based on the current tournament results, I would say we have the I5 meta currently, for the most part..

At this point, I think that you are fine going nearly no bids with i6 unless you have no idea how to move first against other i6s.

6 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

I feel it's also meta depending.

This is what it comes down to. It doesn't seem like there's a lot of value in discussing bids and their value until/unless a specific meta one is facing is defined.

Me? I'm going to still go with dumb bids until I feel I'm proven wrong. The main event Crossroads games I lost, with a 12 point bid and choosing to always move last, had everything to do with mistakes I made, not with missing upgrades or a problem with the list itself. I won every side event Crossroads game, with a 17 point bid and choosing to always move first, sooo...I don't know what I was saying. I'm old. Probably didn't matter.

Bid whatever you want.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

For me its about committing one way or the other.

If im taking 3 aces...im going to commit to a bid.

If im not going to bid...im taking something genuinely efficient with more ships in it.

That's fair. I might be biased since I prefer balanced toolbox lists and usually only include max 1 arc-dodging Ace in them.

Triple Aces always seemed like too much high-risk, high-reward list for me, and high bid is likely a must for those.

P.S. - Please encourage anyone you know who thinks scum Fenn Rau is bad to shout it from the rooftops. DownDownDown! I agree! I want to give up less than 30 half points with Fearless Fenn. If we work together, we can accomplish this goal!

23 minutes ago, gennataos said:

P.S. - Please encourage anyone you know who thinks scum Fenn Rau is bad to shout it from the rooftops. DownDownDown! I agree! I want to give up less than 30 half points with Fearless Fenn. If we work together, we can accomplish this goal!

I mean, I've not played him in a tournament since 2.0 landed, and I love me some Fangs. The fact that I've not gone to tournaments since April has no bearing on the previous data point, ignore that detail. All Fangs should be much, much cheaper!

5 minutes ago, drjkel said:

I mean, I've not played him in a tournament since 2.0 landed, and I love me some Fangs. The fact that I've not gone to tournaments since April has no bearing on the previous data point, ignore that detail. All Fangs should be much, much cheaper!

30 points at most, their horribly overcosted for the ability to fire three attack dice, have no shields, and they don't add an evade anymore! That warrants a discount alone at least.