But the pilot could of shot and missed, standing there talking was moronic.

And you can't be heroes if the people your beating up are not a viable threat, beating up people who can't fight back effectively is called bullying.

Seriously, who just shoots someone because they've ran up to you?

To me these guys seem like they are a bunch of bullies, used to people being compliant and scared and not really coming up against any resistance.

I doubt it's the empires policy to just shoot people because they've bashed 2 troopers heads together? They obviously would want to arrest him not gun him down, and when you are pointing a gun at someone you tend to think they are going to do what you tell them, when they don't and you aren't willing to pull the trigger you are left with little options, especially against a guy that is clearly very physically strong and well trained with his shiny stick.

Regardless of all that there's absolutely no need to justify it in a kids show, they aren't going to have him gunned down.

*sigh* after he was knocked over and picked up the blaster was when he should of shot the violent criminal, he had reasonable cause.

And those two troopers were arresting a criminal for selling deathsticks to younglings, your hero ensured he'd carry on doing that and six months from then a bad batch kills 1400.

Or does the fact he's a wise cracking bad ass excuse attacking honest people just doing their jobs, you have no proof any of those soldiers ever did anything worth getting attacked for.

Why do you people insist on getting your panties into a twist over this? Panties are SO MUCH MORE comfortable when worn correctly.

Yes, Luke killed 100,000 + people in the Deathstar attack. Yes, Han Solo was most probably involved in the drugs trade. GET OVER IT. The OT was heavily inspired by WW2 - think of the death star attack as synonymous with Hiroshima. Massive casualties, but necessary. (Except the star wars version is actually LESS morally difficult, as I doubt there were children on the Death Star).

And in regards to the tired "average joe stormtrooper" argument: Even if you do not personally take part in the atrocities committed by your government, you still share responsibility if by your actions you aid their continued evil, instead of resisting it. Google Adolf Eichmann.

So because some American soldiers comit war crimes that makes all of the armed forces guilty?

You sure you want that to be your line of argument.

Non sequitur.

There is a huge difference between a single rogue individual within an organisation committing crimes and a single individual choosing to turn a blind eye to the evil done by the organisation it is aligned with.

You know... I like these forums (really!) because we don't let the real world seep in.

I'm not cool with this turning into a discussion of *ANY* modern, or recent, military action by any nation.

It's a discussion about some movies from a made-up galaxy, with cool heroes, menacing villains, amazing space ships, and a pretty fun story. Let's leave it at that.

You know... I like these forums (really!) because we don't let the real world seep in.

I'm not cool with this turning into a discussion of *ANY* modern, or recent, military action by any nation.

It's a discussion about some movies from a made-up galaxy, with cool heroes, menacing villains, amazing space ships, and a pretty fun story. Let's leave it at that.

I understand, appreciate, and respect your sentiment.

I will try and reign it in, but please understand that I was only responding to someone who was complaining about the "realism" of an aspect of Star Wars, and it's hard to counter that without something "real" coming into the discussion.

But surely Star wars has always had a nod to real world situations.

The whole 'rebellion' thing to me was clearly a galactic 'revolutionary war'... why else would most the bad guys have English accents and the rebels have 'blockade runners'

Thats because american actors cant do German accents.

But British Thespians can tackle any role!

But you see what I mean though. If you think of it as a mirror to the rev war it makes sense.

I love being British, we've never lost a war... people bring up the Revolutionary War and i point out that that was actually a police action/civil war/internal dispute (call it what you will) between two groups of English people..

It wasn't until one group of English people won they could *legally* be recognised as Americans.. ergo we lost to ourselves so it's a win as well! Hurrah!

I pointed this out to my friend who is a Major in the USAF and he agreed with me... He mentioned the war of 1812 but i think we won that one on points given that we kept Canada and we burnt the Whitehouse down to teach you chaps a lesson...

(only joking before some one goes thermonuclear patriot on me)

And even then a win with the help of the frenchies does not count.

I don't have a problem with the state of training for the Storm Troopers in this particular location (a backwater garrison), at this particular time (before there was an organized Rebellion as we know it).

What we don't know is what kind of training do these garrison Storm Troopers have, and what kind of experience do they have without a long-running battle with the Rebels? (Admittedly, I'm new to the EU "Legends", so I don't know what kind of military action there might have been between the Clone Wars and the rise of the Rebellion.)

As far as we know at this point, this outpost could be manned with bored teens just looking to get away from their parents' moisture farms (just sign 'em up and give 'em armor and a blaster) and commanded by Imperial officers who were assigned there as a form of punishment. Their only "experience" so far could very well just be harassing the locals and being a visual Imperial presence.

You have to remember that if you include EU, the stormtroopers are elite.

The main force of the empire is 'the army' and they wear grey uniforms, not blaster armour. They have psychotic assault units that are more lucky than elite but the stormtroopers are put on ships by the emperor as an elite (and very loyal) personal force, the elite of this elite are his royal guard.

Source: West end games, imperial sourcebook

You dont get 'poorly trained conscript' stromtroopers.

again in 'tales from the mos eisly cantina' a trainee ATAT commander finds himself transfered to a stormtrooper detachment for pointing out the 'tangled legs' flaw of the ATAT in a simulator

source: tales from the mos eisley cantine (selected short stories)

It depends on how much you take the EU for gospel

If its 'film or nothing' then Kenobi says 'only imperial stormtroopers are this precise', which implies they are very well trained.

And for everyone who actually committed themselves to all of the Clone Wars, I'm sure they'll all attest that the 1st season was the worst. So don't give up on Rebels, even if they miss a couple times while they get their bearings.

The 1st episode of Rebels, though, already looks better than the Clone Wars.

When Clone Wars was good, it was pretty darn good. It laid the killing on pretty thick in some of those later-season war eps, and some of the dark stuff just plain never would've gotten past Disney's censor Nazis. Let's not forget that they killed their baby, Tron Uprising, which itself had people getting brainwormed, tortured and killed, halfway through one season. It was also a pretty good show, but it's plain Disney wants its core and only audience to be kids. If Rebels steps up the writing and has heavy-morality eps like Clone Wars did, and stays on the air, I'll be super-surprised and impressed. I don't expect it to, because they want it to stay on the air. That said, I'm fine with Storm Troopers missing all over the place. It happened in the OT, the CW battledroids were habitually poor shots (and facepalm comic relief) too. Of course, they massacred the Dathomir Night Sisters pretty handily with a steady hail of blaster fire (and well, they had Grievous, who is always awesome).

Let's just all pray that there's no Jar-Jar, Ewoks, or other cutesy garbage.

The cutesy i think comes from the droid 'chopper' and he's more tolerable from what i've seen...

You have to remember that if you include EU, the stormtroopers are elite.

The EU means pretty much nothing now, it was at best nothing but soft canon, and now it's not even that. Also there's little meaning in one line from the movie vs all the shots we see Stormtroopers take and miss targets from 10 feet away.

I've noticed something reading over this thread... Most of the people who have issues with Rebels, also have Imperial avatars. Not all of them but most of the people who dislike it do.

Star Wars was more of a Spaghetti Western than it was a war movie. I think we'd do much better in looking at the heroes and villains of the 60s and 70s westerns than anything else. Not to mention the accuracy of the villain's hired help.

But surely Star wars has always had a nod to real world situations.

The whole 'rebellion' thing to me was clearly a galactic 'revolutionary war'... why else would most the bad guys have English accents and the rebels have 'blockade runners'

Clone Wars: Civil War

Rebellion: Axis/Allies

You have to remember that if you include EU, the stormtroopers are elite.

The EU means pretty much nothing now, it was at best nothing but soft canon, and now it's not even that. Also there's little meaning in one line from the movie vs all the shots we see Stormtroopers take and miss targets from 10 feet away.

I've noticed something reading over this thread... Most of the people who have issues with Rebels, also have Imperial avatars. Not all of them but most of the people who dislike it do.

I had not noticed this but you're right... Weird.

You have to remember that if you include EU, the stormtroopers are elite.

The main force of the empire is 'the army' and they wear grey uniforms, not blaster armour. They have psychotic assault units that are more lucky than elite but the stormtroopers are put on ships by the emperor as an elite (and very loyal) personal force, the elite of this elite are his royal guard.

Source: West end games, imperial sourcebook

You dont get 'poorly trained conscript' stromtroopers.

again in 'tales from the mos eisly cantina' a trainee ATAT commander finds himself transfered to a stormtrooper detachment for pointing out the 'tangled legs' flaw of the ATAT in a simulator

source: tales from the mos eisley cantine (selected short stories)

It depends on how much you take the EU for gospel

If its 'film or nothing' then Kenobi says 'only imperial stormtroopers are this precise', which implies they are very well trained.

Based on the movies I never assumed the OT-era Stormtroopers were all elites.

I can see the original clone batches qualifying, but you don't put elite troops on street patrol duty in Mos Eisley. I assumed that as people got less and less happy with the Empire, there was a need for more and more garrisons, and so they had to recruit more and more rank and file, and just put them in White Armour as a bluff. Think the Roman Empire using barbarians and having them use roman style armor and shields.

No storm troopers were never just thugs in armour, bear in mind only the main characters were immune to them they killed plenty of unnamed troops.

I know ewoks, but that's more due to ham fisted symbolism than anything else.

I can see the original clone batches qualifying, but you don't put elite troops on street patrol duty in Mos Eisley.

I remember one book talking about mass conscription to get all the troops the Empire wanted.

Also if we go by the movies, the Stormtroopers which are supposed to be the elite shock troops does in fact make up the vast majority of the Empires ground forces. How many Imperial Grunts do we see? A few at the bunker on Endor. But other then that, every Imperial trooper is a stormtrooper.

To Xander's OP: (I might get to the 7 pages since then if I'm feeling up to it.)

The big annoyance I have is the long necks of the ISDs. That just makes them look silly, and I really love the ISDs.

For the rest, I think it bears remembering the stuff that used to be cartoons when we were kids. He-Man; G.I.Joe, Transformers, was any of that any better, really?

It wasn't until one group of English people won they could *legally* be recognised as Americans.. ergo we lost to ourselves so it's a win as well! Hurrah!

So it was a mirror match?

I can see the original clone batches qualifying, but you don't put elite troops on street patrol duty in Mos Eisley. I assumed that as people got less and less happy with the Empire, there was a need for more and more garrisons, and so they had to recruit more and more rank and file, and just put them in White Armour as a bluff. Think the Roman Empire using barbarians and having them use roman style armor and shields.

Of course you put elite troops on street patrol in Mos Eisley. You're sitting up there with an Imperial Star Destroyer, and you're trying to find two droids quickly. You can either use the thousands of stormtroopers that you have on board or wait for cheap garrison troops to be ferried in because your elite troops are too good for street patrol.

I think the false assumption is that the stormtroopers were the local cops.

Also, I imagine that it's quite easy to be clumsy wearing armor like that. Furthermore, it's kid's show. While I wish these shows didn't have clumsy goons, that's kind of par for the course, and not particularly different from kids' cartoons going way back.

bear in mind only the main characters were immune to them they killed plenty of unnamed troops.

Not really, pretty much the whole assault team that landed on Endor survived. Also you can't just dismiss the Ewoks, regardless of how much you think it's ham fisted symbolism. It did in fact happen per canon. The best you can do is try and rationalize it.

how about a show from the point of view of the imperials?????

you start in the academy with a unit of rag tag individuals from the same planet, some could have been rivals in school and stuff like that.

they see the empire as the savior to the galaxy and can not understand why the rebels would want to fight them.

they have ordinary families and are just doing their jobs. bringing aid to planets that have suffered natural disasters and rescuing ships in deep space.

fighting off pirates and thwarting smugglers.

yes the empire was ruled by an evil individual, other than the way he took power and his treatment of non-humans, his goal was to organize and make the empire thrive. the common imperial citizen had no idea how the emperor came to rule.

I think it would be an interesting twist, and story.

I didn't dismiss the ewoks I dismissed why they won, small guy beating the big guy.

Kid show or not.. The whole show just seems to cute, silly and artificial to me. Star Wars TO ME is at its best when times are dark and feel almost helpless. That's why the OT was awesome.

They were surrounded with despair from relentless and over bearing empire. Watching the rebels scrap by with the skin of their teeth is what made star wars so great.

Although storm troopers were incompetent in the OT, you also always had the feeling the heroes had their backs against the wall and their was at least a chance at failure..

This all just seems so artificial and tacked on.

Now don't get me wrong. Parts look awesome. The animation and sound are great, the art style (although not my taste) seems to work decently for the subject matter.

Even some of the characters seem cool. I actually like the main character and the droid seems to be a riot of a character. Zed (or whatever his name is) seems pretty OK as well.

Personally I'm not a fan of the mandolorian girl.. A bit to over the top with an extra serving of silly and try-hard.

how about a show from the point of view of the imperials?????

Wouldn't have enough of a draw to make it. Sure there's a number of people who like the Empire, but not enough for TV show to make it.

Bottom line is that most people want to see the good guys win in the end, as such there's just not a market for a show based on the bad guys.

how about a show from the point of view of the imperials?????

Wouldn't have enough of a draw to make it. Sure there's a number of people who like the Empire, but not enough for TV show to make it.Bottom line is that most people want to see the good guys win in the end, as such there's just not a market for a show based on the bad guys.

Yes shows like the sapranos, Hannibal, Dexter, breaking bad could never be made because no one thinks bad guys can be interesting...

And movies like taxi driver and the God farther...no chance.

The old roleplay game, as i said certainly had stormtroopers as politically reliable elites

You couldnt bribe them whereas you could bribe other imperial officers.

The game also made the armour reflect the movies

Characters had a number of six sided dice they rolled when testing for 'strenght' and the like, dice for agility etc too.

Wearing trooper armour made you count as having one more dice for 'strength' when taking damage but reduced all your other skills by one dice (so stormtroopers 'blaster' skill of 4D went down to 3D).

They also explained that all the high damage blaster weapons that damage them easily (like hans pistol , E11's etc) are illegal in most systems. The only legal blasters are sporting blasters (like Leia has at the start of ANH) and hunting blasters like a SW version of a 30-06 hunting rifle. In the RPG walking around with an E11 would be like walking around with an AK47 in the UK.. you'd draw attention to yourself and get arrested.

And yeah the stormtroopers *clearly* are not local cops they are sent from the star destroyer in orbit to find the droids on tatooine. Although that *would* mean that star destroyers bizzarly have dewback kennels/cages on board