mac40k said:

I SWEAR TO GOD YOU'RE A LONG LOST BROTHER. GET OUT OF MY HEAD!

I was originally thinking (in another post) that along the lines of the creature stuff, it sounds like it might be huge and would have been a $70 product anyway with all of the info and content. Now they're allowing people who DON'T want the components to just get the guide, but if you want it all, you get the Creature Guide + Vault.

But maybe it's the case that everything in the book is incorporated into the cards (including background fluff) as you suggest. In which case - yum!

mac40k said:

Yer, I noticed that it was worded like that and I hope that it is the case, but the first sentence in the preview states that it contains cards, sheets and other components that supplement the Creature Guide (emphasis mine).

Supplement to me does say either/or but in addition too, as an add on; and that is where my concern lies.

Admittedly, they also call the GM guide a "must have" when quite clearly from what we have learned from Jay, it is not needed for those of us that already have the core set.

I really hope, and deep down probably suspect that FFG aren't trying to screw anyone over and we won't have to buy both products but it would be good to have official confirmation on that, or if it is neccessary to buy both products, an explanation on why that is the case.... If nothing more than for me to work out how much money I am going to have to shell out over the next few weeks!

Ok, I would like to share my opinion with You guys, and please let me know did I get this thing right, ok?

I readed the new FAQ and I those are my thoughts about it.

Those new format book are just the optional version of the core set + winds of magic book + signs of faith book (without the Tzeentch and Nurgle books - so if You want those You need to buy supplement). There is nothing new in those just all the material gathered in one place. So if You have the Core Set there is no need to buy GM Guide, GM Vaults, Players Guide and Players Vaults. Unless You want to. The only new thing it the Players Guide will be the Lite version of the game - so optional rules so You can play without cards.

The new stuff will be only in Creatures Guide and Creatures Vaults.

The other new expansions like adventures or Omens of War will be still in the old format - one box with cards and books just like The Gathering Storm was. So even if You buy those new format books You still need to buy those to get new stuff.

There will be no new books in the new format - it is only made for the optional version of the core set so everyone can affort it. So next year I there will no such a unpleasend suprise a like this one. So the game will still live in the old format just like it is now.

Also Ynnen said that at this years GenCon there will be a seminar about all those changes and new titles. So if You will be there go and listen so You can shere all the info with us.

I can only hope that after GenCon we will see a video of this seminar, just like last year so everybody can watch it a know what is going on.

And one more thing - I like the idea of hardcover books but why this all will be a reprint? The reprint idea is a bad one for me becouse I hoped for more new titles not the old one in new package.

My take on it:

the guide series: for gamers that want to play in a more traditional way without the cards and chits.

The vault series: For gamers tha want to play with cards and chits or the current way.

The guide + Vault series = Deluxe warhammer edition: for gamers that want it all.

Simply put.

Don`t worry fellow gamers, I think FFG can handle both versions with equal support just fine. they`re just expanding their product to other customers.

Monkus said:

Monkus said:

Well said. I couldn't have posted it better myself. Honestly, I'm glad that people want to play this game and I'm glad this special needs edition will hit that market for them. However, it is doing so at such a detriment of the original edition, I cannot understand nor support this decision. My response again, is not personal, it is based on economic and social logic.

My points have always been:

1) The rules "lite" edition will divide the game into two camps. These camps will not relate with one another. Lets say you hold a weekly game at your LGS (which I do). Lets say a new player from the book edition comes in to play the game. He sees all the chits and do dads and what nots, and he leaves or the GM who may not have all the books will now have to run the game in two different formats at the same time. They will have to for three of there players pull out the cards, but these other two they have to roll on these charts. It will create confusion. The same can be said in reverse...someone comes to play the chit-game and find that his LGS or his pick-up group only uses books. So now they have to play by the book. I know this will not be the case for some, but I run at my LGS to support it and this situation will and often occurs with those seeking to play 3.5 DND only to find everyone is playing 4e or vice a versa. This is also not to mention how often gamers make condescending and snide comments about one system or the other that players will face on both sides. Look at what happened to the switch to the new edition with Warhammer. The elitism against a new way of doing things drove FFG to make this decision. The elitists now have their answer and there own way to remain so over the existing line. This of course happens in reverse, where as chit-elitists take up arms against those who want to use guides.

2) This convention friendly edition as it has been suggested it is is, in its essence, not actually the game. It's a "lite" version of the game. If it truly becomes the convention style new player's will be exposed to only to later find out there are chits and component edition. Furthermore, if a chit-player wants to play at a convention or vice a versa, will there be the system they enjoy or want to try out available? This will increase exposure of one style of play over the other.

3) The rules "lite" edition is not just a little bit cheaper as some have suggested, it's a lot cheaper. Lets say, as a Chit user, I want to run a full chit game. For me, I have to buy a core box (100), Adventurer's toolkit (30), Winds of Magic (50), Game Masters tool kit (30), Signs of Faith (50), and at the bare minimum, if the stars are properly aligned, just the creature vault (40). You run the math and that is 300 dollars worth of product, to get the same information in a player's guide (50), a creature guide (30), and a Gm guide (30). plus an equal amount of dice, 4 packs (51.80). The total for that is 161.80 cents. That is a little shy of a 50% discount to all information. An almost 50% discount to retailers as well will notice that they can sell the same product not only cheaper, but with smaller shelf-space.

The PDF argument is a good one, however, this is totally different beast. These are two printed products that are identical in nature. One product retails for 300 dollars, the other for a 161.80. A PDF of the exact same game is still the exact same game and is playable regardless of formatting by the exact same players. These editions are not. In addition the cost of the PDF + printer + ink makes it roughly as much as buying the book on a shelf. This is not the same in this case as I pointed out above, the cost is astronomically different.

4) It is hard to say if the Creature box would have been 70 bucks or not. I seriously doubt though it would contain more cards/components and pages than the Winds of Magic supplement with two books, over 100 cards and tokens. I do feel this could have easily been 50 if it followed the old format. Will I have to really buy both to get the exact same information in two different formats just so I can use my chits? It seems hardly fair to the chit-users, which, if it were the reverse, the book users would say, I won't buy this because I don't want the chits...I say, I don't want to buy the book because it doesn't support the system I ORIGINALLY supported and now have to pay extra to support the special needs edition players while they are not obligated to support my style of play. It is a double standard. If we have to buy both, it is a slap in the face and it definitely seems like an intentional departure from the original design concept.

5) All these problems could be extended if the rules "lite" addition does not operate the same way. Do action cards have recharge in that system? Will talents exhaust? Will the same mechanics apply to both system, the only difference being an aesthetic of check boxes and chits. I assume so, but by the post of the trimmed down mechanics, etc. it could be it does work without these system mechanics. That's two different mechanics operating under the same umbrella. This would greatly increase the divide if it were true...which I doubt is true.

6) They claim the core box is the best value to start, but is it? Based on the price above it is definitely not. In addition the "lite" edition supports 2-1000 players with way more information than the core box set offers for 161.80 cents. Where as the box edition only supports 4, for 100 dollars and needs an additional 200 dollars to become up to date with the chits. This is then extended as more players demand more components which means more expenditure of funds. Gamers are not stupid and though it is a lifestyle, it is a hobby as well. The cost of hobbies become a great factor.

7) They claim they will continue to support the standard edition as usual. Eventually, however, to keep the money interest of those who refuse to buy the additional material will wait for the book format edition. This edition will come, by release schedule now, not much later than the chit-user game. Once the combat box comes out, the books become obsolete so updating is absolutely required to continue to support the special needs edition as those gamers WONT buy cross product, especially if they only have to wait a few months for there edition to get an update at a fraction of the price. With the growth model that is currently been shown us, we are looking at another 4 releases, totally up to roughly 160 dollars next year for the chit users to get all those components. Then, at the end of the year, a rules update book for the special needs edition will come out at a conjecture price of 50 dollars. Again, the chit use mechanic will always be way more expensive than the non-chit style, next time around, roughly 60% more expensive by my conjecture. That again, is a blow against the original system. A blow that in the end is highly likely to be fatal to the Original style. I mean if you go to a store to buy a computer to play the Simms you can buy an Apple or a non-mac. Mac's are roughly 400 dollars more, and since all I want to do is play the Sims, I will buy the 600 dollar computer over the 1100 dollar computer. It is a no brainer. A fact that has put Xbox way above playstation.

Those are my points and the reasons, that the FAQ did not help clarify, to make me and I'm sure many others that this is an extremely bad move on the part of FFG at this point, with the little knowledge we have, to support this new "lite" edition. Which any other company would simply call a 2nd edition

commoner said:

*Shrug*

And the rest of us think that your concerns are exaggerated and unfounded. It's just not a big deal. These books seem a smart move all round. They will (hopefully) get more people playing the game and provide all players with additional options.

macd21 said:

You know, you're not helping.

A better response to the concerns that commoner and others have demonstrated that would probably have more positive outcomes might go something like this:

We here at FFG are committed to WFRP, particularly in its original format. We'd like to reiterate that if you've been a loyal player and customer of WFRP since the beginning and own all of the previous releases, you will NOT need the Player Guide/Vault or the Gamemaster Guide/Vault, though we'd still invite you to consider purchasing it. As for the Creature Guide/Vault, we had the best intentions of getting great new bestiary content into all of our players' hands, but we certainly empathize with those who feel slighted by the need to purchase the Creature Guide in order to take full advantage of the Creature Vault. To demonstrate our commitment to the component style of play, we're going to offer a deep discount on the Creature Guide if you purchase the Creature Vault as well. In addition, we promise that we'll do everything in our power to prevent another confusing release like this from occurring again.

Now, that's probably not the only way this could be solved, but it or something like it would go a long way towards making everyone happy.

Chill-axe Commoner .

Its gonna be fine, FFG are obviously very committed to the token/card based style of play, since future releases will be in the boxed format. After all it is the games point of difference.

I fully believe the approach will allow gamers to choose the level of card/token use on an individual player by player basis within even the same group. Some with a deck in hand while the player next to him clutches his Player HC.

Regarding resellers only stocking the books, thats unlikely. Resellers get a far better margin on the boxed sets than they do on RPG Books. The return of the sale of one core set would blow the sale of a set of HBs out of the water.

I'm with Peacekeeper et al on this: the component-free version is just an attempt to reach those of us who played v1 and/or v2 and who don't like components. It's an uncommon move for any company to take into account the desires of its fanbase to such a degree.

Whether it will divide RP groups internally... I think that's up to the GM and the players. Make clear arrangements with your group about your expectations when it comes to the style of playing. I'm a component guy and so are my players so I probably won't buy all the hardcovers and just use one or two for reference. We tend to use a big table, so we have no problem at all with all the chits. Apparently there are other groups who like to play sitting in a couch, in a car, in a rollercoaster or wherever, and who just want a hardcover book and a handy char sheet ready. They'll have the chance to enjoy WFRP 3 too now. It's a win-win situation. If a group is internally divided about which style of play will be used, I'd say the GM has the final word. (S)he should probably let people vote on it but as far as I'm concerned, GMs can put their foot down if they want to.

I bought the Core Set and I totally don't feel it will suddenly become invalid now that an alternative is being published. Oh well, bring on the Creature Vault already ! I'm hungry!

Bugboy said:

FFG have already made clear that you don't need the PG/V or GMG/V if you've already bought the older books. As for the Creature's Guide, Vault, no, I don't think there's any need to offer a discount on it. The Creature's Guide is in a format already familiar to players who use the cards 'n chits - the same format that the monsters in the Tome of Adventure are in: text in a book. They could have just left it at that and there would have been no change to the current format. However, enough customers have asked for the monster stats to be put on cards that they've decided to release an additional supplement that allows you to do so. It's optional - I'm sure you can continue to play the game as you have been to date with just the Guide and not the Vault.

As for promising not to make a confusing release like this from occurring again, that's just silly. This is the internet. People will misinterpret stuff. Within a day of releasing this information they had a FAQ up - that's as good as it gets. Same goes for 'keeping everyone happy' - again, this is the internet. They can't keep everyone happy. The steps they've taken to respond to peoples queries is as good as it gets and I think most people are satisfied with their responses. There isn't really anything they can do to reassure the remainder, short of promising to consult with them before making any future business decisions.

commoner said:

First of, as some one who suffers from suffers from serious dyslexia, and who is registered with a certificate of special educational needs I would like to ask you not to us the term 'special needs' in that manner. I will not stand by and watch it be used as a derogatory term in this manner. I might have specific issues related to spelling and punctuation, which have persisted into adulthood, but while i struggle to keep there and their, straight in my head, there is a very good chance i am significantly brighter than you despite needing to learn written linguistic skills differently.

Dislike for the chat based system comes from a whole host of sources. Personally I book based rule set for a host of reasons, non of which are remotely'special needs' as you put it. 1, I live seven miles from where I game. I do not drive, and I have poor transport links. Taking the box to and from my friends house on a weekly basis would be a nightmare. 2, Every one in my group, would want their own copy of the rules, so that they can learn them, be familiur with the actions and generally know what they are talking about, should they choose to play the game. Buying multiple copys of the box would get very expensive very quickly. 3, I have a group totalling four players at the momment. Sharing chats is annoying. If every one has their own copy of the rules, we don't get arguments about who gets to take 'winning smile'. 4. I have over the years lost only one two roleplaying books, both of which I believe where stolen rather than lost. I have in the same time lost and innumerable number of spell cards(warhammer fantasy battle 4th), magic cards(magic the gathering), and adventurer cards(warhammer quest) I have experience with these things and i know they are fiddly, get damaged and get lost. Given that I have just invested a very large sum of money in purchasing a game, that a vast proportion of the rules content is on easily damages and lost material. I have already almost lost two components(one tracking token and one wound card.) and frankly, i would be much happier having it all in one book.

None of these reasons for wanting a large proportion of the rules to be in a single book are 'special needs'.

commoner said:

I am not sure this calculation is completely accurate, because if you buy the Player’s, GM, and the Creature’s guide, then you will still miss content that is part of the first, 300 US$ package:

• the adventures that are part of WoM and SoF (we don’t know if An Eye for an Eye will be included in the GM guide or not)
• possibly some of the fluff about Tzeentch and Nurgle that are part of WoM and SoF
• the GM screen

Now I agree that this is certainly not worth the 140 US$ price difference, but there is one other thing that we might have to take into account:

Since much of the rules in the chit based edition will be printed on cards, you do not need to use the rulebook often, therefore the one rulebook that is part of the core box can easily be enough even for a big group. If you play with the hard cover books, i.e. without cards etc., then it is not unlikely that you will need to buy more than one Player’s Guide – maybe even one for every player. This will easily catapult your costs much higher – to FFG’s delight, I guess

These considerations do not say that your argument is invalid or something like that, especially since at this stage they are mostly conjecture. But in my mind, these aspects do contribute to minimize my fear that the chit & card based edition is threatened. I applaud your strong support for the ‘classic’ 3rd ed. rules, however – even though this time I almost skipped your long contribution

commoner said:

I agree with people’s reservations about the creature guide & creature vault. My guess is that mac40k is right on track when he thinks that we will get creature cards in a similar format to career cards, with background info printed on the back. However, I would still guess that there will be a bit more fluff in the Guide, especially concerning things like adventure hooks etc. Nonetheless, I see the good value in both products as separate products too. Since it seems to be unlikely that the creature vault will include a non-hardcover version of the guide, my hope would be that FFG will offer one of two things:

1. a discount for those who want to buy both products or
2. a small booklet as part of the vault which offers at least some of the content that might not be on the cards (i.e. adventure hooks etc.)

I guess option 1. is the more likely option, but then again, I would guess that it is not very likely that we will actually get this option because this might be hard to translate through the commercial chain (i.e. how should stores handle such a discount…)

Maybe option 3. is that FFG will offer a cheaper PDF version of the Creature Guide that those with the Vault can use for one-time references…

Yes I can see a two camp basis forming, but not destroying the game or fanbase.

If I were to play in commoner's game and he were the GM I would play the way he wanted the game to be played. I would have the chits, cards, and everything as needed. I would lite it up some to fit my need as best, but if he is handing out wound cards, I wouldnt make him roll on a chart instead.

If I were running the game and commoner was a player, he could have the cards in front of him if he wanted. But I could use the charts if I wished and if he didnt like the fact I rolled, instead of drew, a result, well that sucks, but he should be willing to play the way I was running the game.

Essentailly FFG are houseruling the system for you.

Overall, it will be the GMs role and responsibility to run the game he wants to run. Same as if I wanted to put all the psyker powers in Dark Heresy onto cards. If I as the GM said that is how I wanted the psykers in my game to handle their powers, well its my need to supply the cards then. Not the players.

And for those of you who are fans of the chits and what not, this is great for you. Now players who were hesitant to play the game may play it chit-free. And if they like the game they may be willing to go "well Ive enjoyed it so far, sure, Ill play in your chit game then."

Its essentially the difference between basic WFRP 3E and advance WFRP 3E. It didnt destroy D&D and AD&D.

______

Personal thought: I imagine FFG will try to get all they can out of these titles while they can. I would imagine the contract is only 3, 4 or 5 years with GW and eventually everything they write/design/create will be the property of GW (GW would definately have that in the contract). As the contract nears expiration, unless it seems likely it will be renewed (and it wouldnt surprise me if GW doesnt renew) FFG would be miss to not just release whatever they can, cheaply at times, crappily at others, to gain a last few dollars from their product license.

It would not surprise me at all if near the end of their license we see all the "fan competition scenarios" bundled together and sold as a book. And so forth.

With that logic in my mind, and the four previews we have had in the past two weeks, which take us up to almost January 2012, I am in my insane vision of the future, seeing the beginning of a last push forward to make more money by flooding the market with game books.

Hopefully I am wrong.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Heh hows that insane future sight doin for ya Peackeeper?, us gamers love our conspiracy/doom theories.

Ynnen should open up a subforum "The End Is Nigh!" where we can fall over and foam at the mouth, pronouncing our predictions of disaster, deception and betrayal. With a stickied thread on "Placard making 101".

...instead of doing it all over the site.

Seriously though, I think as long as FFG keeps the revenue healthy GW will renew the license

I, for one, hope that FFG will manage to release some stuff for this that 2nd edition never got round to. Lustria, for example, could be handled in a kind of "explorer"-themed supplement. I like the fact that they're creating a "war/Khorne" supplement, not because it's a theme I'm particularly interested in, but more because it shows they're willing to expand on what's been offered so far in terms of themes.

Sidenote: I also really hope that future boxes will be made of durable material like the core set because I don't know how to store all of this otherwise. I don't have Winds of Magic yet and my core box is full as it is.

On an optimistic note, I am looking forward to having creature cards in front of me while playing from the Creature Vault set.

I also hope that creature action cards will be part of the Creature Vault contents.

Daedalum said:

I also hope it continues. With the future of DH looking bright, and WFRP 3E getting a tad (inches we may say) closer to how some of us would like it I am hopefully optimistic.

I am sorry for the other players who do like the chits and what nots, as I remember what it was like when they changed the game we liked to something else. But alas, I dont think the game is changing at all, just one version or another will be available.

But I have had these insane since college when Professor T.Z. Eentch introduced me to T.E. Quila.

commoner said:

I completely agree with you Commoner, as i see this issue in a similar way. I really want to buy this new Warhammer Fantasy, i coundnt afford to buy it, but i hope that changes, especially because maybe in the main time a spanish version is released, i hope.

But in the case i buy it, now i see that FFG is doing a bad move in doing this Adventurers guide/ Adeventures Vault, sort of books, first because i believe makes the core set obsolete and probably maybe extinct in the future, the way i see it, for having an updated game with the chits and books, i need now to buy 3 books and their respective Vaults, and even then , i doubt all the info for the previous books will be in the Guides, or maybe they will be huge books that has no new info, or a lite version of the books like Winds of Magic and Signs of Faith.

Also the price scare me, each book around 50 dollars, when all the core set is supposed to be in just 100$ , seems like a huge increase in price, and even worst, without the chits. One of the things that makes me want to buy this systems is the new mechanic , with cards and all. Is really as Wizards of the Coast Power cards for Dungeons & Dragons, but in the core set used to be included in all the price, and i loved that. Really i am worried that this decision has been made just to please to that people complaining to have only the books, why not realease a PDF saying how to play without the chits , but keeping the same original system? Before for 50$ you had books (2 like in winds of magic or signs of faith) and chits by 50$, now in the future releases just a book cost that. I dont see it fair. They are doing a similar thing as Dungeons&dragons with that new "Essencial Line" , that we all fear will kill the original books or made them redundant just for the sake of selling. I hope FFG analyze their new move , and at the least, reduce the price , so if we are forced to buy both the guides AND the Vaults , we can at least afford it. ****, i hope they dont kill the chits plus books system.

Really sorry. I verified again the prices, and most of the books and vaults are around 30 - 40 dollars price. If each of them contain all the info released until now, and some more, it will be a bargain for new players! Just hope is like that, because if they have all the info , the books at least will be huge!

Sorry, i misunderstood the way it was done, and generalized the prices

Bravo!!! you could'nt have put things more clearer. I myself feel that I have taken a considerable and expensive risk in supporting Warhammer Fantasy. The product is one of the most expensive games on the market, and after reading through the "Sifting through Shadows" I felt really ripped off.

I feel that in order to put our minds at rest, these issues need to be answered. I love the game as it is, but please if it means that I need to invest again in the core books and later on in the vaults, due to a few new cards or an improved rule you have taken serious advantage of us gamers.

I hope that i just misunderstood things, and that you quickly find the time to explain to us, who have supported the game to where it is now, which products we need, and which have already been covered by the previous box sets.

Akishma said:

Read the FAQ, it answers all your questions. The guides/vaults contains no new material, except few diagrams, and errata - the only exception is the Creature Guide/Vault.

Akishma said:

If you have the old material then there is no need to buy the GM Guide and Vault or the Player Guide and Vault, as you already have that material.

The Creature Guide and Vault are 95% new material.

macd21 said:

In the pursuit of politeness I was not as blunt in my previous post as I will be now. Commoner's and my concerns have nothing to do with you. They involve our relationship as a customer of FFG, and are between us and them, commenting in an official thread in the company forums.

So, while I'm super thrilled that you think our concerns are crap, and that you're unable to understand rudimentary PR, I've the highest regard for FFG and will wait patiently for some official announcement, not addressed in the initial release or subsequent FAQ, to help us with our concerns.

Bugboy said:

You're posting your opinions in a public forum, if you're not prepared to get responses then don't post (or at least ignore the responses). If you only want FFG's response then send them a mail and hope for an answer.

I don't think your concerns are crap, I'm mainly trying offer another point of view to perhaps alleviate them. We seem to be interpreting the FAQ very differently, I think it does clear up most of the issues (well, I agree it would be interesting to know if the Creature vault is a stand-alone product).

Only 20% of those who play a game ever write to a forum.

Put in another context, abou t 1 of 5 who play warhammer 3rd edition write to this or a similar forum. So dear FFG instead of catering to the minority who do very often raise their voice about any petty thing, why not cater to the silent majority?

Now how can you cater to the silent majority? By simply doing your own thing and mostly ignore the criers and doomsayers at your forum.

Listening and doing what the opinionated minority means would be best for a game, often means doom for the company. That doesn`t mean you should completely ignore their ranting and and obsessive and lenghty articles of "why I`m right and you`re wrong", just throw them a bone once in a while, so they believe they have been heard.

Otherwise I implore you FFG to do your own thing, and disregard most of anyhting said on the forums.

sincerly an opinionated forumite