I own the Core set and GM's toolkit. I hope the Player Guide, Player Vault, GM Guide and GM Vault, has only overlapping and not extra rules or components. Otherwise, why did I bother buying the Core Set? It's wasted space if I have to buy the Guide's and Vault's all over again.
I am waiting for Jay's FAQ, but I, as others have already posted, have a bad feeling about this too.
gruntl said:
Dumb move imho. It will leave them open once again to somebody simply scanning this hardcover book and putting it online.
You think that hasn't happened already with all of the components?
Planning the way you release products to avoid being pirated is utterly stupid and just shows that you have no grasp of how easy illegal copying is. Mind, I'm not supporting piracy, but this statement is just flawed.
My gripe isn't as much that they're repackacking the old content in chit-less form, but that for the future expansions, this will be the rule as well. That to me is a gentle slope to a silent death for the chit-based system... Meaning in the end we'll have to buy every expansion we've already bought, a second time, in chit-less.
Why would it mean the end of the chit-based system? We who really like the system and are already playing will continue to buy the components. The people who really didn't like them will not buy them, but they will at least buy the books. Win-win for FFG (and us, if we want FFG to keep supporting the game).
To Commoner:
Why the doom and gloom? At the moment you seem to be interpreting the news in the most negative way you can. You seem to think that you've been personally wronged when "having" to buy all the expansions while future players might not have to do that (the future players playing without any components that is)? You're of course entitled to feel that way, but frankly I think that sounds more like whining than constructive feedback.
Macd21 is right, you pay extra for the tokens because you get additional stuff. The change will make it more expensive to play with components, but that is the price you have to pay for freedom of choice.
handful of new players who cried "Descent clone"
,
That's your way of describing all of the people who were heavily involved in 2e, but felt that components was not something they wanted when playing RPGs? That comes off as quite rude in my opinion. I think the change might attract quite a lot of people from the 1e/2e side to at least try out 3e, certainly more than a handful. You have to realise that the opinions of people hanging around at this forum does not represent the opinions of the whole WFRP fanbase, there's certainly more than a handful people that have asked for this change.
edit: added reply to the latest post
gruntl said:
To Commoner:
Why the doom and gloom? At the moment you seem to be interpreting the news in the most negative way you can. You seem to think that you've been personally wronged when "having" to buy all the expansions while future players might not have to do that (the future players playing without any components that is)? You're of course entitled to feel that way, but frankly I think that sounds more like whining than constructive feedback.
Macd21 is right, you pay extra for the tokens because you get additional stuff. The change will make it more expensive to play with components, but that is the price you have to pay for freedom of choice.
handful of new players who cried "Descent clone"
,
That's your way of describing all of the people who were heavily involved in 2e, but felt that components was not something they wanted when playing RPGs? That comes off as quite rude in my opinion. I think the change might attract quite a lot of people from the 1e/2e side to at least try out 3e, certainly more than a handful. You have to realise that the opinions of people hanging around at this forum does not represent the opinions of the whole WFRP fanbase, there's certainly more than a handful people that have asked for this change.
edit: added reply to the latest post
First off, I know the gaming world is much larger than these boards. My Descent Clone is an exaggerated point that if you already don't like the game, the books aren't going to change it. It will still be the same game. So who are they really going to draw in, but a minority of a minority? People who need counters replaced apparently by dozens onto dozens of check boxes, and hand copied mini-charts for each action card. But hey if check boxes is what they needed and if that makes it suddenly a brilliant game to them, well...glad you like the game I've been enjoying.
Nope. I am not whining all. Funny you mention it, because whiners created this whole mess and now I'm being called a whiner. LOL! I guess what goes around comes around.
Doom and Gloom? Surely it is. Sorry I don't catch every ray of sunshine believing it is a brilliant little beacon of hope. As of the product announcement, it seems on paper to be a bad move for us chit users as it is currently packaged and one that in general, I can't support. (Much like many of those who think this is absolutely brilliant once believed 3e was a bad move in the first place). The personal part is, I won't support it until we get clear answers. So I'll see how I feel after Jay's next post. But for now, I'm a little off-put by the choice.
So I guess, genuinely, I'm sorry I'm not jumping on board with the news that this is the "greatest thing" since sliced bread. Honestly, I'm a little shocked myself as I have been extremely supportive of this new edition ever since I read about the dice. Unfortunately, now I'm one of a few dissidents against this bold new direction for the game. Murder me for it and call me all kinds of names if you want to, but I just can't get behind it as of what I know right now. To be honest though, I don't view it as a personal attack either, as I fully accept my insignificance in the world and the fact I don't know everything. I guess why it may read as personal is I am part of the majority of people who enjoyed the game as is. You know, the people who bought it in the first place so Jay Little could eat and everybody else who hated it could finally get there special needs edition.
This forum typically rips on generalities and prefers specific related conversation. So I took a personal stance. However, my personal stance is echoed in a handful of other dissidents who agree - this seems like a product relaunch, not a repackaging. This is not the direction of the game I bought into. The future of this game now seems uncertain, unfocused, and plainly confused making FFG seem unsure of their own products. Why did anyone buy all this stuff to simply have it repackaged in a cheaper format? How will this new format impact the game? Are we really going to have to rebuy everything we have already bought, just because of the new careers, rules, etc that will be included in the box set? There will be multiple camps of play and the community will not be cohesive. I now dread pick-up games at LGS as it may be hard to get all players on the same page on how the game will be ran. For instance,
GM: "you take a critical, here is your card."
Player: "Get that tainted piece of chitty crap out of my face. I am a roll on a random table player you idiot."
GM: "Oh yeah, sorry. What page is that chart on? And do you have that book? As I never bought it because I've never used it?"
Additionally, If chit based play is more costly, businesses will not stock the chit versions if they are more expensive than manuals - Simply put, here is the book you can buy off the shelves. You want chits? Oh we'll special order it for you. - Because the fact is 260 dollars for chit users where as buying the books 152 is a big difference. and this freedom of choice in a free market that seems so important the store owner can use as well. A man who has to worry about the initial investment and how much pricier items are a risk to his investment. And it's such a steep price difference that only a blind, dumb, lame, crippled, deaf, mute, dead person would miss it. And I doubt many of them are going to buy into the game anytime soon. This means the chit sales will and book sales will increase. This will lead to an economic illusion that people prefer books to chits. Chit play goes red. But the books are doing fine. No more chits.
These two products will compete with each other for sales if done poorly and even if they are done well, it seriously has the potential to do so.
Macd21 is not right. Right in that I get additional stuff (when I actually don't, since all I'm getting is cards instead of pages). But the same argument of why should he have to pay for chits when he is just buying a book works both ways. Why should I pay extra for a book I'm never going to use because I use chits. It is not the price I am paying for freedom of choice. It is the price I am being forced to pay by the way The Shadow makes it sound. The price WE chit-users are going to pay to buy all those fancy charts and pages of reprinted action cards and specialized dice-to-chart rules we are never going to use just for a dozen or so new rules. So WE end up having to double pay for information we already have! While those who want just books have the luxury of just buying a book they will use, but not the chits and no additional content they don't want and don't have to pay for. If that is true, it is a horrible double standard and in fact, as I said before, a penalty for chit users and those of us who supported the game all this time from its announcement. To be honest, I don't know if forty extra bucks to have the all the monster-stats reprinted on cards is worth it to me, after I had to shell out 30 bucks to get all that information once.
I also don't know if 70 bucks for a monster book and box is actually worth it either. That's the most expensive monster manual in the history of mankind.
By all means, I hope Jay proves me absolutely wrong. I honestly do. I will just have to wait and see.
Oh and onto something personal:
I'm excited about the new products coming up beyond the hardbacks and vaults. I just wish the combat box wasn't so far out. I would rather have seen that this winter than all this other hub-bub, because the game needs it. It also needs an advanced career box which I don't see. Hopefully that will come next summer and hopefully all of it will still include cards and chits. The Dwarf Box set is a must!
I also have never found much practical use for Monster books, but I know other players love them.
If my native language was english, I would have made written a post, writing exactly what Commoner wrote above.
Commoner, you are not alone.
plutonick said:
I own the Core set and GM's toolkit. I hope the Player Guide, Player Vault, GM Guide and GM Vault, has only overlapping and not extra rules or components. Otherwise, why did I bother buying the Core Set? It's wasted space if I have to buy the Guide's and Vault's all over again.
IMO, buying the Core Set wasn't a big waste of money, because we have lots of dice now - dice must be bought by those who wants to start playing from 'the new version' of WFPR.
In some way, I regret that I didn't have a chance to choose between those two versions of WFRP from the very beginning.
Cheers!
Armoks said:
I own the Core set and GM's toolkit. I hope the Player Guide, Player Vault, GM Guide and GM Vault, has only overlapping and not extra rules or components. Otherwise, why did I bother buying the Core Set? It's wasted space if I have to buy the Guide's and Vault's all over again.
IMO, buying the Core Set wasn't a big waste of money, because we have lots of dice now - dice must be bought by those who wants to start playing from 'the new version' of WFPR.
In some way, I regret that I didn't have a chance to choose between those two versions of WFRP from the very beginning.
Cheers!
You can see it the other way then. If I already have the core set, then by buying the player and GM guide will be a waste, since you will only be getting a couple of new rules and examples I will most likely not need anymore, thanks to Dvang and other frequent posters on the boards.
The other option is NOT to buy the guides, but I am a bit of a completist. It would tear me apart not having those books.
I'd just like to echo Commoner's thoughts, which resonate with my own. He's not the only one who feels as if the new books could potentially undercut the card and chits design of the game, a design many of those who actually buy and play the game really enjoy and have invested heavily in, in terms of game time and money. Hopefully, all these concerns will be addressed by Jay in his FAQ.
One question I have is what the impact of this change in strategy will be for other types of supplement. I really enjoyed the way an adventure like the Gathering Storm had additional magic cards, items, conditions and a storm tracking system that could be used in other campaigns. I’m also a big fan of the ‘Ruinous Powers’ boxed sets, where we don’t just get a set of spell cards, but an additional adventure, a host of new careers, items, locations etc so that every dimension of the game as a whole is filled out with each new release. I
’m a little confused as to how future boxed sets and adventures like this will be translated into book-only versions, given the diversity of materials they include; book-lovers will be left with a hodge-podge of rules in different books (exactly the reason why our group prefers the use of cards) or presumably have to wait a significant period of time for a version summarising multiple supplements with a common theme? I hope this doesn’t indicate a change in direction because I thought both ‘The Gathering Storm’ and ‘Winds of Magic’ were fantastic releases and well worth the money.
I've now posted a WFRP Product FAQ with additional information regarding the upcoming WFRP release schedule.
ynnen said:
I've now posted a WFRP Product FAQ with additional information regarding the upcoming WFRP release schedule.
Thank you very much, Mister. I really do appreciate your concern and all your amazing work on Warhammer.
commoner said:
Additionally, If chit based play is more costly, businesses will not stock the chit versions if they are more expensive than manuals - Simply put, here is the book you can buy off the shelves. You want chits? Oh we'll special order it for you. - Because the fact is 260 dollars for chit users where as buying the books 152 is a big difference. and this freedom of choice in a free market that seems so important the store owner can use as well. A man who has to worry about the initial investment and how much pricier items are a risk to his investment. And it's such a steep price difference that only a blind, dumb, lame, crippled, deaf, mute, dead person would miss it. And I doubt many of them are going to buy into the game anytime soon. This means the chit sales will and book sales will increase. This will lead to an economic illusion that people prefer books to chits. Chit play goes red. But the books are doing fine. No more chits.
These two products will compete with each other for sales if done poorly and even if they are done well, it seriously has the potential to do so.
Well for a start,their isn't an example of a free market anywhere in the world, but getting beyond economics and politics, you have missed one really important fact. What is on sale in shops is no where near as important as it once was. If you want chit, you can order them, either through your flgs or direct from Fantasy flight.
All this really does is make the chits an optional, and fairly useful tool, rather than a neccessity. For me, with a seven mile walk to where i game, a book just makes more sense, so if once i have had the chance to actually run or play 3e, i find i enjoy it, i will be buying the book on top of the box set i already have, so that my gaming table has more than one set of the rules.
Commoner, thanks for more eloquently stating what I tried to, but failed, to convey
BTW, I'm not stating that I don't think piracy is already happening. I'm stating that it takes about a hundred times less effort to pirate a book and the person that downloads it, print its out on his office printer, than it is to properly print out all the little cards, lined up correctly in recto/verso, cut them out, and laminate/treat them to at least withstand a little bit of abuse.
However, the post by Ynnen states:
Q: How about future supplements?
A: These will be released in the same way that we have released our supplements to date (such as "The Gathering Storm" and "Winds of Magic") including both the rules, source materials, and components in one box
So as far as the future supplements go, apparently nothing changes then.
zombieneighbours said:
All this really does is make the chits an optional, and fairly useful tool...
My fear is that optional will turn into obsolete or rare and extra expensive (and not just 10$) which means the original gamedesign that some of us really like may get killed off by this move (hopefully its just a nightmarish worst case scenario that won't happen).
Hopefully the decision isn't just based on the vocal internet minoritys shouts for a "no bits" game as White Wolf have once said the number of players that go online and post is only about a couple of % of the complete player base and thus not much to go by statistically.
Commoner said:
First off, I know the gaming world is much larger than these boards. My Descent Clone is an exaggerated point that if you already don't like the game, the books aren't going to change it. It will still be the same game. So who are they really going to draw in, but a minority of a minority? People who need counters replaced apparently by dozens onto dozens of check boxes, and hand copied mini-charts for each action card. But hey if check boxes is what they needed and if that makes it suddenly a brilliant game to them, well...glad you like the game I've been enjoying.
Nope. I am not whining all. Funny you mention it, because whiners created this whole mess and now I'm being called a whiner. LOL! I guess what goes around comes around.
They were complaining (without even having played the game) about the need for components, now you're complaining about a new product without components (despite having no proof whatsoever for this release having a negative effect on the component version). But sure, I shouldn't call it whining, I still don't think it's very constructive. You think it is "a minority of a minority" that will be drawn in, don't you think FFG has thought this through? No offense meant, but why would you know better than FFG how many people that are potentially new customers because of this change?
Commoner said:
Doom and Gloom? Surely it is. Sorry I don't catch every ray of sunshine believing it is a brilliant little beacon of hope. As of the product announcement, it seems on paper to be a bad move for us chit users as it is currently packaged and one that in general, I can't support. (Much like many of those who think this is absolutely brilliant once believed 3e was a bad move in the first place). The personal part is, I won't support it until we get clear answers. So I'll see how I feel after Jay's next post. But for now, I'm a little off-put by the choice.
So I guess, genuinely, I'm sorry I'm not jumping on board with the news that this is the "greatest thing" since sliced bread. Honestly, I'm a little shocked myself as I have been extremely supportive of this new edition ever since I read about the dice. Unfortunately, now I'm one of a few dissidents against this bold new direction for the game. Murder me for it and call me all kinds of names if you want to, but I just can't get behind it as of what I know right now. To be honest though, I don't view it as a personal attack either, as I fully accept my insignificance in the world and the fact I don't know everything. I guess why it may read as personal is I am part of the majority of people who enjoyed the game as is. You know, the people who bought it in the first place so Jay Little could eat and everybody else who hated it could finally get there special needs edition.
I don't think this particular announcement (the repackaging) is the greatest news ever either, but I think it is a good one. Now I'm a bit unfair since I have read the FAQ and you haven't but I think the answers provided will hopefully make you a bit happier
. The coming supplements will be coming out as boxed sets with components. So I see no reason in assuming that the component-based play will lose out.
Commoner said:
Additionally, If chit based play is more costly, businesses will not stock the chit versions if they are more expensive than manuals - Simply put, here is the book you can buy off the shelves. You want chits? Oh we'll special order it for you. - Because the fact is 260 dollars for chit users where as buying the books 152 is a big difference. and this freedom of choice in a free market that seems so important the store owner can use as well. A man who has to worry about the initial investment and how much pricier items are a risk to his investment. And it's such a steep price difference that only a blind, dumb, lame, crippled, deaf, mute, dead person would miss it. And I doubt many of them are going to buy into the game anytime soon. This means the chit sales will and book sales will increase. This will lead to an economic illusion that people prefer books to chits. Chit play goes red. But the books are doing fine. No more chits
.
These two products will compete with each other for sales if done poorly and even if they are done well, it seriously has the potential to do so.
I think you're wrong. It's also almost impossible for me to discuss it since the market for RPG's is very very different depending on which part of the world you're in and whether you buy from an online shop or a local shop. Based on how I buy my rpg's I can't see how the things you describe would ever happen. But it may very well be a plausable scenario for you, so you may be right. Of course the will compete to some extent, but FFG will certainly make more money out of it. That is good news if we want the game to continue in its current form.
Commoner said:
I also don't know if 70 bucks for a monster book and box is actually worth it either. That's the most expensive monster manual in the history of mankind.
Yeah, because buying a monster book + a set of counters/minis is really cheap in other systems. Come on...
I like the core set and initial approach to the game, but I still think the addition of these versions will make the game even better. It will make things a bit easier for our play group at least.
Really. Are we really complaining about this?
What happened to all the "you can still use what you have, no one is stopping you from playing 2E" stuff? I mean, you can still use your chits and chats and chuts and what nots. No one is saying you have to stop using them.
But those people who were turned off by cards and chits are more likely to contribute to the hobby, the profit and the success of the game now. Yeah, technically drawing a card and consulting a D% chart have the same result in the end. But some players are more tactile and prefer cards, others are more thinkers (not a judgement on intelligence, just a execution of creative thought and how it is used, look up the Meyers-Briggs personality studies and tests if you would like more information on what I refer to) and prefer reading charts and graphs. Analytical minds I suppose.
Others are essetianalists and would rather have what the need briefly noted on a sheet of paper, others like to have lots of things to make them feel more drawn into the system and action.
I dont like the chits and chats and chut and chots and chets and sometimes chyts. Sure many of the other mechanics are still there, but tapping cards, using tokens and what not distract me more then keeping track of what round it is and how many rounds I have to wait to do something again.
Sure I can do this as is, but if it saves me $10 then great. Also if the new rulebook has examples, references and suggestions on how to play without the bits, then I am also happier. Yes, its the same steak, but its the way you cook it that makes the difference to the consume.
I am now more prone to pick up this game. Perhaps if they write in a alternate dice mechanic.
However, I am concerned that they may wuss out in a year or two more down the line. To the point where they might start the double statting. Here are you 3E stats, here are your 3E chit free stats. Here are your 2E stats.
Nisses said:
Commoner, thanks for more eloquently stating what I tried to, but failed, to convey
BTW, I'm not stating that I don't think piracy is already happening. I'm stating that it takes about a hundred times less effort to pirate a book and the person that downloads it, print its out on his office printer, than it is to properly print out all the little cards, lined up correctly in recto/verso, cut them out, and laminate/treat them to at least withstand a little bit of abuse.
However, the post by Ynnen states:
Q: How about future supplements?
A: These will be released in the same way that we have released our supplements to date (such as "The Gathering Storm" and "Winds of Magic") including both the rules, source materials, and components in one box
So as far as the future supplements go, apparently nothing changes then.
Sorry, but no. In my experience (from research at uni) Scanning books is a massive hassle. The cards would be a positive dream to scan compared to a book of the size of dark heresy.
And from experience with digital RPG material, if i where using digital versions of cards, i wouldn't use them the way your suggesting. I'd build action suite sheet, containing the specific powers my character actually has. That way all the cards are easily visible and in one place, and wont get scattered across the table if knock them. And doing that, would take me less time than writing this post did.
I know this, because it descibes exactly how i use the Pathfinder & 3.5 SRDs to make my memorised spell sheets .
42! said:
zombieneighbours said:
All this really does is make the chits an optional, and fairly useful tool...
My fear is that optional will turn into obsolete or rare and extra expensive (and not just 10$) which means the original gamedesign that some of us really like may get killed off by this move (hopefully its just a nightmarish worst case scenario that won't happen).
Hopefully the decision isn't just based on the vocal internet minoritys shouts for a "no bits" game as White Wolf have once said the number of players that go online and post is only about a couple of % of the complete player base and thus not much to go by statistically.
Sorry, if I don't feel i need chits, and for the most part I could see the game working fine without all of the chits, why should it be for me to subsidise you use. The Price of the chits may well go up, but it will be because you are paying their actual cost, not one that is being kept artifically low by those of us forced to purchase them, despite prefering that rules be kept in a book, rather than easily lost and damaged chits.
gruntl said:
Commoner said:
First off, I know the gaming world is much larger than these boards. My Descent Clone is an exaggerated point that if you already don't like the game, the books aren't going to change it. It will still be the same game. So who are they really going to draw in, but a minority of a minority? People who need counters replaced apparently by dozens onto dozens of check boxes, and hand copied mini-charts for each action card. But hey if check boxes is what they needed and if that makes it suddenly a brilliant game to them, well...glad you like the game I've been enjoying.
Nope. I am not whining all. Funny you mention it, because whiners created this whole mess and now I'm being called a whiner. LOL! I guess what goes around comes around.
They were complaining (without even having played the game) about the need for components, now you're complaining about a new product without components (despite having no proof whatsoever for this release having a negative effect on the component version). But sure, I shouldn't call it whining, I still don't think it's very constructive. You think it is "a minority of a minority" that will be drawn in, don't you think FFG has thought this through? No offense meant, but why would you know better than FFG how many people that are potentially new customers because of this change?
Commoner said:
Doom and Gloom? Surely it is. Sorry I don't catch every ray of sunshine believing it is a brilliant little beacon of hope. As of the product announcement, it seems on paper to be a bad move for us chit users as it is currently packaged and one that in general, I can't support. (Much like many of those who think this is absolutely brilliant once believed 3e was a bad move in the first place). The personal part is, I won't support it until we get clear answers. So I'll see how I feel after Jay's next post. But for now, I'm a little off-put by the choice.
So I guess, genuinely, I'm sorry I'm not jumping on board with the news that this is the "greatest thing" since sliced bread. Honestly, I'm a little shocked myself as I have been extremely supportive of this new edition ever since I read about the dice. Unfortunately, now I'm one of a few dissidents against this bold new direction for the game. Murder me for it and call me all kinds of names if you want to, but I just can't get behind it as of what I know right now. To be honest though, I don't view it as a personal attack either, as I fully accept my insignificance in the world and the fact I don't know everything. I guess why it may read as personal is I am part of the majority of people who enjoyed the game as is. You know, the people who bought it in the first place so Jay Little could eat and everybody else who hated it could finally get there special needs edition.
I don't think this particular announcement (the repackaging) is the greatest news ever either, but I think it is a good one. Now I'm a bit unfair since I have read the FAQ and you haven't but I think the answers provided will hopefully make you a bit happier
. The coming supplements will be coming out as boxed sets with components. So I see no reason in assuming that the component-based play will lose out.
Commoner said:
Additionally, If chit based play is more costly, businesses will not stock the chit versions if they are more expensive than manuals - Simply put, here is the book you can buy off the shelves. You want chits? Oh we'll special order it for you. - Because the fact is 260 dollars for chit users where as buying the books 152 is a big difference. and this freedom of choice in a free market that seems so important the store owner can use as well. A man who has to worry about the initial investment and how much pricier items are a risk to his investment. And it's such a steep price difference that only a blind, dumb, lame, crippled, deaf, mute, dead person would miss it. And I doubt many of them are going to buy into the game anytime soon. This means the chit sales will and book sales will increase. This will lead to an economic illusion that people prefer books to chits. Chit play goes red. But the books are doing fine. No more chits
.
These two products will compete with each other for sales if done poorly and even if they are done well, it seriously has the potential to do so.
I think you're wrong. It's also almost impossible for me to discuss it since the market for RPG's is very very different depending on which part of the world you're in and whether you buy from an online shop or a local shop. Based on how I buy my rpg's I can't see how the things you describe would ever happen. But it may very well be a plausable scenario for you, so you may be right. Of course the will compete to some extent, but FFG will certainly make more money out of it. That is good news if we want the game to continue in its current form.
Commoner said:
I also don't know if 70 bucks for a monster book and box is actually worth it either. That's the most expensive monster manual in the history of mankind.
Yeah, because buying a monster book + a set of counters/minis is really cheap in other systems. Come on...
I like the core set and initial approach to the game, but I still think the addition of these versions will make the game even better. It will make things a bit easier for our play group at least.
Just want to say, for the most part, well said.
Also if this has not been said before, it seems that this will not delay the rest of the new products that much as all seem to be released at the same time.
That makes for less resource use (which I originally feared).
Great move FFG!
Given the recent FAQ it seems like the intention is:
HedgeWizard said:
Which is a pity... I like the new, modular presentation of WFRP3. I'd gladly buy the books from all the supplements, but I don't need the bits, since I keep everything on paper, and if I need something, I'll make it myself. Ie.: we made our power and item cards for 4e, I even created a character sheet, and I don't need standups, since I already made tokens for WFRP2e, and we can also use my girlfriend's miniatures.
I'd love to see such guide/vault compilations every fall...
So far the adventures don't have a lot of components, and I think it makes sense to keep these as complete, while sourcebooks going forward will probably come in the Guide + Vault format.
Obviously people are going to argue that they should make it all an option because more choice = good. But there are a lot of costs ($$ and increased confusion/fracturing the base) by providing an option on every release.
HedgeWizard said:
Obviously people are going to argue that they should make it all an option because more choice = good. But there are a lot of costs ($$ and increased confusion/fracturing the base) by providing an option on every release.
This is why I think it should be done every fall... Box-fans would have already bought their boxes during the year, new players and book-fans can get those stuff as compiled guides and vaults.
Captain Fluffy said:
Only one complaint - why leave Slaanesh until last? Surely he's the coolest of the Chaos gods and maybe the one thats most fun to weave into a campaign.
I agree. For roleplaying potential, Slaanesh is second after Tzeentch. But with FFG's policy of introducing the Chaos gods as part of a broader supplement, I can understand that Slaanesh's logical match (a supplement on nobility/upperclass) isn't high on the priority list.
On the other hand, I'm not sure if priests+Nurgle was such a logical match. Couldn't it just as easily have been priests+Slaanesh?
Peacekeeper_b said:
Really. Are we really complaining about this?
What happened to all the "you can still use what you have, no one is stopping you from playing 2E" stuff? I mean, you can still use your chits and chats and chuts and what nots. No one is saying you have to stop using them.
But those people who were turned off by cards and chits are more likely to contribute to the hobby, the profit and the success of the game now. Yeah, technically drawing a card and consulting a D% chart have the same result in the end. But some players are more tactile and prefer cards, others are more thinkers (not a judgement on intelligence, just a execution of creative thought and how it is used, look up the Meyers-Briggs personality studies and tests if you would like more information on what I refer to) and prefer reading charts and graphs. Analytical minds I suppose.
Others are essetianalists and would rather have what the need briefly noted on a sheet of paper, others like to have lots of things to make them feel more drawn into the system and action.
I dont like the chits and chats and chut and chots and chets and sometimes chyts. Sure many of the other mechanics are still there, but tapping cards, using tokens and what not distract me more then keeping track of what round it is and how many rounds I have to wait to do something again.
Sure I can do this as is, but if it saves me $10 then great. Also if the new rulebook has examples, references and suggestions on how to play without the bits, then I am also happier. Yes, its the same steak, but its the way you cook it that makes the difference to the consume.
I am now more prone to pick up this game. Perhaps if they write in a alternate dice mechanic.
However, I am concerned that they may wuss out in a year or two more down the line. To the point where they might start the double statting. Here are you 3E stats, here are your 3E chit free stats. Here are your 2E stats.
The worry for me Peacekeeper, is that although you can potentially buy a product without all the chits and chots and whot nots that put you off playing and not have to worry about anything else, which admittedly is great for you and great for FFG, however, if I enjoy getting my chits out, so to speak, can i get away with buying the chit heavy product or do I also have to buy the book which replicates much of the info on my chits, but also includes some new info...
It seems not for the players guide and GM guide but…
Take the creature vault for example; you can go ahead and buy the guide only and remain chit free, but do i have to buy the guide (because it has some fluff only info in it or whatever) as well as the vault to get the chits?
If so, then that is likely to work out more expensive.
Previously, i would have got a light rules books and stuff on chits for price X, now i have to buy a rule book (including info from Chits) for price Y and the Chits as a seperate product for price Z, and my worry is that Y+Z > X!!
I don't need the info from the chits in the book because I have the chits, but I am paying for the "privilege" anyway...not different from your concerns that you were previously paying for chits you didn't want, but is either way any better than the other?
It seems all other products will continue to be chit heavy, so creature vault may simply be an anomaly, where I have to buy what is essentially a book with redundant info it in just so that I can have the 30%-40% info that is new to me, but it possibly sets a worrying precedent.
Perhaps though all info from the guide is also in the vault and therefore I only need to get the vault to keep my chits in order and my redundancy content to a minimum….!
...That is what I am hoping for.
Peacekeeper_b said:
Really. Are we really complaining about this?
What happened to all the "you can still use what you have, no one is stopping you from playing 2E" stuff? I mean, you can still use your chits and chats and chuts and what nots. No one is saying you have to stop using them.
.....
However, I am concerned that they may wuss out in a year or two more down the line. To the point where they might start the double statting. Here are you 3E stats, here are your 3E chit free stats. Here are your 2E stats.
Peacekeeper, I think you have answered your own (rhetorical) question...
I believe that Commoner and others are concerned that this dual approach to 3e will split the fan base and lead to some utilising a pen and paper approach, others making full use of action cards etc, and this will lead to a schizoid split where different members of the community or even the same play group are using rulebooks/PnP and others the card-based system. If the card-based system works out much more expensive than the rulebook-only version, then many people are going to opt out of the component system due to cost, which might undermine the launch version of the game that many fans have invested their money in. Will this eventually lead to a 'wuss out' (as you put it) by FFG down the line?
So, with respect, your post reads as 'Really, are you guys complaining about this.... completely valid point that I'm also concerned about?'
Frankly, I think Jay's post indicating that future supplements will continue in the same vein goes some way to ameliorating this. However, Pumpkin has a point re: Creature Book and Vault. If I can get a softcover book and the cards etc and pay an extra £10 than the hardcore rulebook alone, that's fine, everyone's happy. But if I have to buy the hardcover book in order for the Creature Vault to be usable, then there seems to be little point in buying that second product, just to get cards which are reprinting rules in the book.
I don't think anyone here is too bothered about the hardcover books alone, if they are pure either/or products and will bring new gamers on board. Its the potential implications for the line as a whole and whether this will undercut the original version of 3e, by making it less affordable in comparison, which could lead to the double statting etc that you highlight or varying levels of support for 'book' and 'card' versions. Again, I think Jay's response goes some way to reassuring me that this won't be the case.
In case this ever got lost in translation, I am a huge fan of WFRP ... so thank you Jay and FFG for a great game... just keep 'em coming
Per the preview of Creature Vault: "By transferring
creature and NPC information from
charts and spreads in a book to handy cards and
sheets, the Creature Vault provides a new tactile
and visual way to create and manage encounters,
as well as reference creature stats
and background
information
on the fly."
This to me says that all of the info, including the fluff , that is currently presented in book format will be on cards as many have been asking for. They will probably be career-sized for the creatures background/stats and action card size for special actions, but I'm banking on those who prefer this format to not also have to buy the book (unless of course, you want to). FFG seems to be trying (almost) too hard to please multiple market segments with these announcements. I can't imagine that they would then turn around and screw those of us that want the card version to have to buy both products while allowing others to get by with just the book.
For those of you worried about fracturing the market, I don't see this as being much different from the print/pdf argument. For many RPGs, some people prefer DTB and will pay more for them (than the corresponding pdf product), others prefer pdfs and are willing to wait for them (since they usually lag the DTB release by a bit), and still others like and are willing to pay for both. For one thing, even if you assume that the subsequent releases will be collected and reprinted in hardback at some point, there will still be those that are willing to pay more for the boxed version because they want the bits/cards and are willing to pay for the additional value they provide, and others who will be willing to pay the higher price just to have the material sooner rather than wait for a hardback compilation release. There's also no reason to think that the release of hardbacks will lead to the death of the bits any more than pdfs have resulted in the end of printed books. Complaining that if you like the bits you have to pay a premium for them when those that prefer to do without can get by with slightly lower priced hardback is like complaining that you have to pay a premium for a DTB while others are perfectly willing to get by with a cheaper pdf.