I think the cards are cool too, I just think they would have been a lot easier to reference if also reproduced in a book.

Jay H

If they keep the cards along with the new book format, I'll buy the books too along with the cards, however if the cards are dumped later, I'm out of the game. Hope they keep both new format AND the component/card system.

Emirikol said:

Hopefully, you know I'm not quick to disagree with you, but obviously this product is very viable as it has enough support to keep up the product launch and second printings on a lot of the suppliments, as the RPG states. Yes, this will draw more players. But the cards are not any bigger pain than having pages of written down stats for the various talents, actions, etc. Then you have to have check boxes for all those actions. You are talking pages of "spell" sheets and talent pages. I have one player with eight action cards and six talents. Each one has an in game effect. It will take them forever to write them down, not to mention manage all those recharge ratings. I agree things like fatigue/stress cannot be tracked, but action cards DO NOT get in the way and are way easier to track.

Plus, if there will be a hardback versions of everything at roughly a 30-40% discount, well, that could easily kill the chit-based system. I also don't think the format change will really draw new players. New players WILL play and then quit for the same reasons before...the play does not change with a format change, the game remains the same.

Furthermore, the reformatting has penalized those who have supported the product thus far based on this vague report. If the player who uses chit has to shell out 70 bucks for monster guide and the card vault where as a non-chit player only has to spend thirty, that's absolutely a penalty stacked against those who have supported and loved the game, as is, since its conception.

Also Jay, this does not fix your problem of fixed career advancement schemes. That problem remains. So really, is this new format that much better for you?

Thanks Spaniard (cP) for letting us know we'll hear more about this tomorrow. I really applaud how vocal FFG is about their product lines and decisions.

Over the months since its original release, I've had a love/dislike relationship with the cards/bits. A couple of examples:

• Wound cards: ingenious in my mind. Quick flip to a crit, easy to track, and at the end of the night just down the number of wounds and keep the crit cards.
• Careers as cards (or spells): for someone who LOVED the compendium from v2, I really like the idea that as new careers come out, I just add them in and thus don't have to reference multiple books. I ultimately ended up sleeving mine in order to have a compendium of sorts, which now makes randomization hard, but makes reference very easy for building adventures. So I created a quick spreadsheet with just the names of the careers and can randomize them that way. But this is work I had to do to get the system "useable" for me.
• Career special abilities: not sure why these weren't just on the career card to start with; if you complete a career, just jot it down on the sheet. Having two distinct cards that are tied together has been a little odd.
• Conditions: love/dislike. In order to make it useable as a ref in building an adventure and to be able to toss out to a player when appropriate, I sleeved them, and built a simple spreadsheet notation. However, being able to pass it to a player and have it be so prominent keeps the affects fresh in the mind (whereas in other systems, writing down conditions is fine but they often are forgotten or dismissed).

Ultimately, the cost to sleeve most of the cards is worth it (in my mind) for the organization benefits, but it added significantly to the cost of the game, and you lose the ability to randomize the decks. I've also created spreadsheets to cover all the conditions, careers, reputation cards, etc.

Ultimately I really love the new mechanics, and use 85+% of the components, but I can see why FFG has made this change in course. I hope it pays off and draws more new players to the mix. I have faith that they'll do right by the people who've been buying the new WFRP products, but as always, the proof will be in the pudding.

Eagerly awaiting more news on these changes...

commoner said:

No, chit players have to shell out extra cash for more content and, as you point out, playability. FFG are just giving people the option - pay for the play aids (chits 'n cards) or not, the choice is yours. We aren't being 'penalized'. It's just that other gamers aren't being forced to buy components they don't want.

macd21 said:

It does appear that to get the components + content of the creature "Set" you buy the creature Guide for 30, and then can get the components (spells, action cards, whatever else) for 40.

I might have preferred if the Guide were hardcover at that cost (which it is) and the vault is the deluxe version: the book (but in softcover) with the components for 50.

Very curious to see how exactly these different products break down.

Also just noticed: the beginning of the guide suggests these products are from Summer 2010 - Summer 2011.

The Witch's Song is listed as Winter 2011. Since it follows the Fall 2010 and precedes the Spring 2011 content, can I presume this a typo and we'll be getting this the Winter of 2010?

HedgeWizard said:

I'd assume that Winter 2011 means early first quarter. It's not like spring starts in January.

Though I will be patient for Jay's response, I do have to say that those who are worried are not without reason from these major points from the letter. I put them in bold.

"These diligently crafted books are destined to be indispensable
tools for both new and existing players as they include
comprehensive gameplay examples coaching players in taking
full advantage of WFRP’s novel game system, useful tips, improved
rules organization, improved methods for using and
tracking monsters and encounters, as well as complete reference
tables of careers, spells, actions, blessing, and options
from all WFRP 3rd edition releases up through the soon to be
released Signs of Faith."

"This hardcover book
contains the rules and gameplay information
from the Core Set - expanded, updated, and
clarified - as well as some previously unreleased
material."

And what will this mean for future releases? Will there always be a follow up book and a handy repackaged card box. Will every supplement feature the book player and the chit player way of doing things? How much extra will each play styles have to pay for that material.

Furthermore, if the books do include every supplement to date, then the book gamers get everything we who supported the game spent on the core material 260 dollars for 90 bucks + 4 dice packs = 152 bucks. That's almost half off, roughly 40%. This is certainly a slap in the face to those who supported the system and wouldn't even get a chance for this relaunch if we hadn't. Additionally, if this model is continuously pursued throughout the product it will surely spell the doom for one system or the other and 9 times out of 10, the more expensive version of the same thing dies. That's basic business.

Sorry, I know I sound like I'm going over the top with this (which I am) but I'm seriously not frothing at the mouth. I still am waiting on Jay's answers, but I just feel like I should point out the flaws, thus far, I have seen with this decision. To satisfy me as a long time consumer of the game, this is what I hope he says:

1) The three new guides ONLY cover the information printed in the Core box, covering all the careers, action cards, and talents in that box. All other information printed in the Adventurer's toolkit, the GM Toolkit, the Winds of Magic, and Faith Supplement is found in those sets. The reference page simply points out where the additional spells/information can be found and only gives a narrative overview of what the power does.

2) All the information from those sets will later be printed in future hard back expansions.

3) The Card Vaults ONLY contain information from the core set or they have within them roughly the same number of new, additional cards that can be found in the adventurer's toolkit.

4) The Creature Vault will have a softback version of the hardback book.

Otherwise, not only have I wasted a great deal of money, but the chit/card system and all those wonderful box sets might as well be recalled. Why on earth would a gamer buy a more expensive set of the exact same game just to have the "luxury" of using cards rather than copying down tons of information. Why should the original supporters be punished for actually supporting the game we love, a version that will die off in the next year or two as new hardback compilations come out roughly 9 months later (or in some cases, 4 months later) at a way cheaper price?

@ macd21

Are you running the math? If I don't use chits, I can buy the product for thirty bucks. If I do use chits I have to spend 70 bucks in total, to get the background material, basic information, then the cards. Even if the box set includes a copy of the book, then I have to spend ten dollars more than the hardback? Wow, I'm certainly glad I supported the "luxury" style of play then.

Also, this game was ORIGINALLY designed as a chit/card game. We who have been buying chits and cards and really, really, really like that system have supported this game up until this point. Chits and cards we have always used because the game was DESIGNED around using them. So we, who have played the game, shelled out all the cash for the game so that it could continue printing supplement after supplement, who have invested hours of play and dedication to this innovative mechanic have to now pay more just so a bunch of people who wanted it in book form (God knows why) could have it there way? So now we are the ones who have to pay extra for the "luxury" of using chits and cards in the creature vault and these other hardback products? For what could have been for us in a soft back book with our cards for 40-50 dollars and a rules update/errata online.

I find that in the Warhammer many others and I have spent there money on, charts of cards, randomized hit location tables, randomized corruption and miscast tables IS the extra content, not the other way around. In addition, by making the cards and chits a separate add-on content box further creates a "collectors" type of feel for the product and says the way this system is to be played is without these accessories, but if you want them, shell out the extra forty dollars over every other gamer who can simply play with the same material for 30.

Furthermore, I spent a great deal of money on products that have been packaged in sleek books and card boxes? Any additional content means I have to re-buy all that product again. The line"previously unreleased material is a clear statement," I will have to buy something again, unless that only specifically refers to the creature vault. Otherwise, I am shelling out huge amounts of cash for one or two more cards to add to my set. Yet another slap in the face.

I also assume these "vault" boxes don't have the winds of magic and faith supplement cards in them, but if they do, well, that is yet another huge amount of wasted money attacking those who have supported this game from conception.

So far this maneuver seems like about 8 slaps in the face from FFG. All for what? So a handful of new gamers who cried "Descent clone" enough times and dramatically set there sets on fire enough can play the exact same game they hated a few months ago just because it's been reprinted in a book? Just so they can complain next that the dice use funny system so next year we get a relaunch of Warhammer that uses standard dice instead of these dice with "funny" little pictures, lol.

Mmm...well, some of these changes in direction look promising. Less of the gimmicks, and hopefully a little more depth to the game. materials. Heres hoping its good.

Soon 3rd ed will die and 2nd ed will LIVE AGAIN FOREVERRRRRRRRRRR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dumb move imho. It will leave them open once again to somebody simply scanning this hardcover book and putting it online.

I'm very interested in what Jay has to say, because it does indeed seem like (as Commoner suggests) that those of us who have bought the game FFG originally envisioned will have paid a lot more for boxes than new GM's and Players, who may even get new material that's not in the stuff we have.

I couldn't help seeing the Player and GM supplements as "old stuff repackaged but with a few new things added so you need to have it even if you bought the original boxes" and unless I'm mistaken then groups who like the original idea with cards, etc. will have to pay more in order to play with new material, which is a shame as it'll lead to a divide in 3rd ed players (ie. bit or no bit groups - or even worse divided groups) and if the no-bit stuff outsells the bit stuff, will FFG then just go that way entirely (shops might only want to stock the stuff that sells)?

I think there is such a thing as listening too much to vocal online minorities, especially if it comes at the expense of the original game design.

Until now I think FFG have done really well with 3rd ed. but I fear they are trying so hard to get everyone to buy their stuff that they'll compromise with their game design and potentially end up aggravating the players who like (and have paid for) their original design.

I hope I'm wrong because I really like the game and would hate to end up abandoning it because it suddenly changed after the first year.

commoner said:

Yes, I've done the math. I'm not disputing the fact that it will cost you more to play with the cards than without. What I disagree with is the idea that this is unusual and I certainly don't see it as a 'slap in the face' of fans of the game.

FFG are releasing the game in an alternate format. Instead of buying everything in one box you can choose to buy stuff separately, though it isn't a very cost efficient way of doing so if you intend to use the cards 'n stuff - you're better of buying the core box if that is the case. The big difference here - the one you object to - is that people can choose to not buy the cards. So what? This isn't some personal attack on you or your preferred play style. It is simply giving the option to play without the cards to those who wish to do so.

Why would anyone spend the extra money on the cards, you ask? Because the game is better with them. While these new books may make cardless play possible, I suspect that most people who buy them will end up getting the cards anyway. Only the die-hards will refuse and most of them will simply stop playing the game anyway.

You seem to be a big fan of the card system, yet you don't feel that system has any monetary value over the text version? I, for one, have no intention of just getting the Creature's Guide - I'll definitely be picking up the Vault as well for the cards. But forcing other players who don't want the cards to pay for them is just silly.

macd21 said:

It's already hard to get this system over here in a timely manner. I only know of a few stores that do, and with very limited stock.
If they see that the Guides sell twice as much as the Vaults, they'll simply start only buying the Guides.

If enough stores do this, it'll be the end of the chit-based system.
(Seriously, would you go to a paper-shop and pay $30 for some printed paper? That's all that chits are )

My gripe isn't as much that they're repackacking the old content in chit-less form, but that for the future expansions, this will be the rule as well. That to me is a gentle slope to a silent death for the chit-based system... Meaning in the end we'll have to buy every expansion we've already bought, a second time, in chit-less.

Let's just hold off on more info for now. Jay should post soon enough.

Dumb move imho. It will leave them open once again to somebody simply scanning this hardcover book and putting it online.

You think that hasn't happened already with all of the components?

Planning the way you release products to avoid being pirated is utterly stupid and just shows that you have no grasp of how easy illegal copying is. Mind, I'm not supporting piracy, but this statement is just flawed.

My gripe isn't as much that they're repackacking the old content in chit-less form, but that for the future expansions, this will be the rule as well. That to me is a gentle slope to a silent death for the chit-based system... Meaning in the end we'll have to buy every expansion we've already bought, a second time, in chit-less.

Why would it mean the end of the chit-based system? We who really like the system and are already playing will continue to buy the components. The people who really didn't like them will not buy them, but they will at least buy the books. Win-win for FFG (and us, if we want FFG to keep supporting the game).

To Commoner:
Why the doom and gloom? At the moment you seem to be interpreting the news in the most negative way you can. You seem to think that you've been personally wronged when "having" to buy all the expansions while future players might not have to do that (the future players playing without any components that is)? You're of course entitled to feel that way, but frankly I think that sounds more like whining than constructive feedback.

Macd21 is right, you pay extra for the tokens because you get additional stuff. The change will make it more expensive to play with components, but that is the price you have to pay for freedom of choice.

handful of new players who cried "Descent clone" ,
That's your way of describing all of the people who were heavily involved in 2e, but felt that components was not something they wanted when playing RPGs? That comes off as quite rude in my opinion. I think the change might attract quite a lot of people from the 1e/2e side to at least try out 3e, certainly more than a handful. You have to realise that the opinions of people hanging around at this forum does not represent the opinions of the whole WFRP fanbase, there's certainly more than a handful people that have asked for this change.

edit: added reply to the latest post

HedgeWizard said:

Exactly what I need to know too and for exactly the same reasons.

This all is so AMAZING!. I can't believe my eyes what I'm seeing.

YNNEN YOU ARE THE MAN! THANKS FOR THE GREAT JOB YOU"RE DOING!

Those new title are looking brilliant. Can't wait to have theme im my hands. And this new format - wow - that's the only word I can say!

I love the idea of hardcover books - I'm going to buy theme as soon as those will be avaliable in Europe.

I't looking like we are not just bean heared by the FFG but also they lisen and show to us how fans are importent to them.

We not anly gonna get some great supplements but also adventures and much more.

I'm really impresed by all this.

Now this years CVhristams shoping will be special for daddy! (My wife is gonna kill but it worth it!)

pumpkin said:

+9. That's what my players are asking too.

I'm stunned, I have to say. Personally, I'm particularly interested in the Creature Vault and the witch-themed adventure, especially the former because we've been needing a vastly expanded bestiary and a much more GM-friendly way to keep track of their actions etc.

I have no need for hardcover books, but I think it's amazing that FFG are willing to publish those for those who don't like "chits 'n bits". Personally, I'm a full-blown chits 'n bits kinda guy and I'm not ashamed of it:)

pumpkin said:

pumpkin said:

+10. I believe Jay must have a good explanation in order to rise up to our expectations, because buying all the new stuff is 'rather' expensive.

From the preview:

For instance: "Creature Vault

Featuring cards, sheets, and other components that supplement the The Creature Guide hardcover book , this expansion provides GMs with a new way to build and run encounters."

I have a bad feeling... Calm down, calm down...

willmanx said:

willmanx said:

The Spaniard sayed on the front page:

"Jay will have a more comprehensive FAQ tomorrow, but suffice to say, there is nothing to be concerned about for owners of the Core Set. There is nothing critical in the "Guides" or "Vaults" (other than the Creature Guide/Vault) that you'll need in terms of new content or rules. They'll be great if you're looking for reference tables for the cards/components/careers, more examples, more copies of the rules for the table, etc, but they do not replace the still-valid Core Set. The Core set remains the principal tool for a new group to get into the game, and is the best value in town for what you get.

They allow more options for existing groups (easier to add new players and add incremental content), traditional RPG'ers, and give new groups the option to split the purchases between GM and Player if they desire.

As I said, rest easy, more details from Jay tomorrow.

cP
FFG"

So be pacient - I think Jay will give us all the anwsers tomorrow.

It makes total sense. Otherwise how could you expect an easy entry point for new players three years down the release track. I'd look at the CoreBox, Keepers Set, Adventures, 4 chaos sets, various adventures etc and feel a bit overwhelmed at the prospect of getting up to speed. If every year the key rules were consolidated into a few hard-backs, it'll make buy-in easy years into the product line.

Dumb move imho. It will leave them open once again to somebody simply scanning this hardcover book and putting it online.

Nothing actually stops anyone doing exactly that with the current system.

If your technically savvy enough to scan a book, your technically savvy enough to scan cards.

ffgfan said:

I am sure he will, but I want to make sure that in those answers Jay fully expands on what the word "critical" in that setence means.

The GM's toolkit isn't "critical" in terms of its content, but it is a very nice to have and does have lots of new content; in fact nothing other than the core set is actually critical to play the game (others might disagree that the core set isn't complete, but factually to play the game, it is all thats needed)

If by the word critical, it actually means there is no new content in those products, it is simply a re-ordering of existing material along with improved examples of play, then fine.

But if those products have any "exclusive" new content that can actually improve my gaming experience, then I'll be slightly annoyed, for the same reasons other people have mentioned, if i have to go out and buy that product perhaps 90% of which i already have, just to get that 10% new material.

It seems the creature vault/book has "a lot" of new material, as that has already been classed as critical in FFG's response, so its a given that will need purchasing for existing GMs, but it is much less clear who the other two hard back books and asosciated vaults are aimed at, IMO.