35 minutes ago, Spinland said:

I have the idea that a lot of casual play doesn't involve time or points and I have zero expectations of getting into competitive OP. Again, I tend to feel negatively about that scene for the aforementioned expectation of aggressive NPE.

I can only speak for me, and the entirety of SE England, but the overwhelming majority are friendly and helpful enough that losing an outrageous mis-match in skill and meta can still be an enjoyable and educational social encounter. That doesn't change a lot with event size.

People rub each other up the wrong way on occasion, but it's very low key and rapidly put into perspective.

Casually, we sometimes forget to set a timer, but I've only ever played an agreed format, with points etc.

6 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I can only speak for me, and the entirety of SE England, but the overwhelming majority are friendly and helpful enough that losing an outrageous mis-match in skill and meta can still be an enjoyable and educational social encounter. That doesn't change a lot with event size.

People rub each other up the wrong way on occasion, but it's very low key and rapidly put into perspective.

Casually, we sometimes forget to set a timer, but I've only ever played an agreed format, with points etc.

Same in Sweden. The worst I've had is an opponent grumbling and getting visibly(but not vocally) upset when he lost, and he brightened back up when I shook his hand and thanked him for a good game.

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

I can only speak for me, and the entirety of SE England, but the overwhelming majority are friendly and helpful enough that losing an outrageous mis-match in skill and meta can still be an enjoyable and educational social encounter. That doesn't change a lot with event size.

People rub each other up the wrong way on occasion, but it's very low key and rapidly put into perspective.

Casually, we sometimes forget to set a timer, but I've only ever played an agreed format, with points etc.

Same here up North fella. In fact, out of all the dozens of Organised Play events I've attended and hundreds of matches played, around the UK and Europe, I've encountered all of one opponent who I had a negative experience with. Just one.

The overwhelming majority of players I've met in the past five years or so have been friendly, fun to play against and up for a laugh. Whether it's been close run games or one-sided matches, it's always been enjoyable, and I've made a lot of friends.

The game might not always go your way (Dice! Spatial awareness! Dice! Missed opportunities! Dice!!) but that happens casually as well as competitively. It's how you deal with the highs and lows determines whether you have fun (or not).

20 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

All I've focused on for the existence of HS is to defend its merits from artificial detractions that don't follow logically. Such as saying you can play whatever you want and have fun in extended as a strong point for it being preferred, because that isn't true. You can play whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you'll have a good time with it necessarily. Kris submitted an idea, I demonstrated why it doesn't work, you tried to defend it, I showed the defense didn't work. And that was all.

At no point did I tell you or anyone else not to play extended, or that it was inferior in any way. Only did I point out that the reason you and Kris gave was not true, and not a logical reasoning to prop one over the other.

You have proven why that explanation and Extended does not work for you . More importantly, you have shown why the idea doesn't work for Spike/Johnny's. Seriously, anyone who wants to continue the discussion should really take the time to read this old article by one of the MtG designers. It really puts things into context and it will help people realize why we keep talking past each other, because we have different expectations and definitions of fun .

Spike/Johnny's will most likely find Extended frustrating, because the meta is well defined and honed to a razor's edge there, and the Johnny in them wants to create their own lists, to not netdeck and show off their own creativity, but when they play them, they don't put up the W's their inner Spike requires, and they aren't having fun . They will have fun in Hyperspace, because the meta is constantly changing, allowing them to demonstrate their creativity with the blank slate of a new season and discover what wins tournaments (Spike) and simultaneously shows off their creativity (Johnny) to everyone watching.

Myself, I'm more of a Johnny. I want to create my own lists, flying my own thematic stuff, like RAC/Sloane + mini swarm in a I Really Want to be Playing Epic list, or Vader/5th Bro/7th Sis in a Battle of Malachor list. Whatever. I take my stuff and go 4-2 at a local tournament and am happy. A local Spike may point out that the first three games were against trash lists or lower skill players, and don't really count, and the last three games I went 1-2 against meta lists and therefore my list is also trash . I don't feel that way and I had fun because I was able to fly a list I loved and get some wins and some loses and I'm satisfied and feel fulfilled.

Timmy is going to like Extended because it lets him pull off combo-wing. Maybe he gets some wins, and probably some more experienced player spots what he's trying for at Turn 0 and picks his list apart, but he's having fun because he feels clever getting the combo going against a few people. Hyperspace tries, purportedly, to stop Timmy from ever having that list.

Ultimately, Extended and Hyperspace are fun for different players because we want different things from them. In my case, Hyperspace does not allow for it*, but Extended does.

PS: Spike/Timmy created Nymranda or Handbrake Han, Spike would fly them because they put up W's.

* depending on the list of the season, there was one time in recent history after the /v1 with the named Inquisitors was added into rotation I played around with some list making for HS

The problem is, this new Hyperspace "Season" might promote creativity for some, but it doesn't do so for all.

I tell people to look at what this format did to the CIS, but I don't feel like people have really done that, when the responses I get back are "You just got 3 new ships!" and "That type of thinking staunches creativity". Seriously, look at the CIS . Yes, we just got 3 new ships, but only one of those new ships may possibly bring a new playstyle or two to the faction (Or really revitalize old playstyles that have fallen out of favor). Only the HMP is really good for creativity, as it seems like it could work in so many different lists, but many of those lists are no longer possible with the removal of other pieces.

In addition, I can no longer experiment with force powers and my only "option" to get a force point on my ships is Dooku Crew. Meanwhile, boring old Vulture Droid swarms, which have been in the meta as long as the CIS, are just getting better.

Will the CIS have new lists? Sure. Will they be creative lists? No. The firespray will bring a temporary uptick in "Gang+ Leader" style lists and "Hammer and Anvil" style lists, before it finally goes the way of the Sith Infiltrator. The Tri-fighter is going to replace the Nantex for mini-swarm purposes. You'll see (very slightly) fewer Hyena Swarms, but more Vulture Swarms. All in all, it's the same old junk with a new name.

Had Darth Maul been left in the format, we might have a seen a "Big ships" list do well in the format.. but he isn't, so we won't. Had targeting computer been left in, we might have seen a list with Gorgol supporting HMP's.. but alas, No. It's as if FFG saw where creativity might have had room to develop, and decided to kill it off before it got too frisky.

I don’t think the formats impact Spike/Johnny/Timmys at all. The same players are the same in either format. Everyone is capable of finding satisfaction in either format.

I genuinely find the format war completely nonsensical as it doesn’t matter, the game is the same in either format.

23 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

I don’t think the formats impact Spike/Johnny/Timmys at all. The same players are the same in either format. Everyone is capable of finding satisfaction in either format.

I genuinely find the format war completely nonsensical as it doesn’t matter, the game is the same in either format.

I feel that you have missed the entire point of how different players want different things from the games that they play, and that the different formats hinder/help those different aspects,

Spike can be happy in either format. They just find whatever works best to win and play that. Format doesn't matter. They will check the sites for tournament data, find the best list they are most apt to run and run that. You may be making the mistake of assuming that everyone else is a Spike like you.

Johnny wants to be creative in list building and is not concerned about wins. Extended allows for more tools and pieces to put together what they want. Hyperspace limits their choices and is less attractive than Extended.

Timmy wants to put together big combos that are just monstrous. This could be a monster like Handbrake Han, this could be some Dead-Man Switch jank loses all the time but that blows up everything in a spectacular explosion once . Maniacal laughter follows and fun was had. Extended allows for this style of player, and Hyperspace actively attempts to prevent combo-wing with its card banning. Timmy will be most happy in Extended.

When you start looking at the blended personalities, then you start having the problem, because Johnny/Spike and Timmy/Spike add the caveat that "and it must win" to their inner desires:

• Johnny/Spike wants to create their own creative or thematic lists and they must be able to win tournaments consistently. This is where Extended breaks for Johnny/Spike, the meta is developed and there is not a lot of room for creative lists that can also win. Hyperspace may actually be more attractive here since the meta is constantly in flux, new lists emerge and constraints can help creativity .
• Timmy/Spike wants to create their own monster combos and they must be able to win tournaments consistently. This is where Extended shines, as combo-wing tends to be able to exist there and put up wins. Hyperspace tries to remove these sorts of "problems" and Timmy/Spike will not be able to put up wins there.

I think you’ve remembered only a very narrow definition of the player types.

Mark Rosewater wrote of Timmy:

The 'Timmy/Tammy' profile was represented in the Unglued card Timmy, Power Gamer .

Some subgroups of Timmies are: ^[1]

• Power Gamers love playing big creatures and big spells as they smash their way to victory. They equate power with fun.
• Social Gamers thrive on the social aspect of the game. Their only interest is interacting with their friends. Thus, they tend towards multiplayer variants.
• Diversity Gamers experience all the different deck types and formats. They always try something different because they enjoy constant exploration.
• Adrenaline Gamers enjoy the variance in the game, playing cards and decks that don't have a predictable outcome. They love cards that work differently each time you play them like coin flip cards.
• Griefers enjoy making other players not have fun.

So unless you’re telling me that social gamers can’t be social when playing Hyperspace, or they won’t like variety and diversity of a new and changing format I’d say you’re wrong on that count.

Shall we look at Johnny next?

Mark Rosewater wrote of Johnny:

The 'Johnny/Jenny' profile was represented in the Unhinged card Johnny, Combo Player .

Some subgroups of Johnnies are: ^[1]

• Combo Players are fascinated by the interaction of the cards. They find combinations that no one else has. They want to build decks that will impress all who see them.
• Offbeat Designers are driven by ideas. They are proving their ability to find answers for any challenge. What if the deck only had lands? What if the deck never played permanents?
• Deck Artists use deck building as a form of self-expressive art. They build decks that do things like embody the elf culture, for example.
• Uber Johnny thrives on doing the undoable. He proves that what conventional wisdom says can't be done, can be done. To him, no card is too bad to find a use for.

So, there’s no attraction in Hyperspace for offbeat designers or deck artists or Uber Johnny’s?

How about you stop imposing your own biases and opinions on everyone else and just let people do what they enjoy?

5 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

How about you stop imposing your own biases and opinions on everyone else and just let people do what they enjoy?

How am I imposing my own biases on anyone? I'm not saying anyone can or cannot play either format, and I'm not fighting a "war" here. Everyone can do what they enjoy.

I've said before that I am glad that both formats exist.

I am just pointing out that different formats appeal to different personalities, because of the differences that they have.

Yes, there are subgroups, and yes, we could do further analysis into those, but I think that's getting into the weeds a bit too much. Yes, Uber Jonny may like Hyperspace, but Deck Artists may prefer Extended, since they can't create a particular list because all of the elves/Jedi were banned this season in Hyperspace. In any case, it simply reinforces my premise that different people want different things from the same game, and the different formats lend themselves to prefer certain formats over others. There is no "best" format, other than the one that is most attractive to each individual player.

It always amazes me how so many people write so many words about what, essentially, is adults moving little toy spaceships around a 2D board while saying "pewpewpew".

(and don't lie, even if you don't actually say it, you're definitely thinking it.).

That said, looking at my own post count maybe I should stop talking now.

8 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

It always amazes me how so many people write so many words about what, essentially, is adults moving little toy spaceships around a 2D board while saying "pewpewpew".

(and don't lie, even if you don't actually say it, you're definitely thinking it.).

That said, looking at my own post count maybe I should stop talking now.

As an indie game dev, I find conversations around:

• Am I having Fun?
• Why is this (game/feature/mechanic) Fun or not Fun?
• What the frack actually is Fun ?
• Why is that person's Fun not the same as that other person's Fun?

...pretty **** fascinating and there is a lot of digital ink spilt over the concepts and lessons learned over the years by successful and failed games.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

It always amazes me how so many people write so many words about what, essentially, is adults moving little toy spaceships around a 2D board while saying "pewpewpew".

(and don't lie, even if you don't actually say it, you're definitely thinking it.).

That said, looking at my own post count maybe I should stop talking now.

**pewpewpew intensifies**

As is often the case, I have nothing to say but to echo @theBitterFig ’s comments with emphasis added.

13 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

I don’t really understand that. If you’ve got time for six games of X-Wing you can play 6 HS, 6 Extended, or some of each. Playing two formats doesn’t require double the time.

I haven’t played a single game of xwing in 10 months. I don’t know where you got six games from.

53 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I haven’t played a single game of xwing in 10 months. I don’t know where you got six games from.

Then it sounds like worrying about having time for one format not another isn't a problem you face.

Ahhav (30)
Marg Sabl Closure (1)
Precision Ion Engines (3)

Mining Guild Surveyor (23)
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Mining Guild Surveyor (23)
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Mining Guild Surveyor (23)
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Mining Guild Surveyor (23)
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Mining Guild Surveyor (23)
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Mining Guild Surveyor (23)
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Total: 196

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4 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Ahhav (30)
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Precision Ion Engines (3)

Mining Guild Surveyor (23)
Marg Sabl Closure (1)
Precision Ion Engines (3)

Mining Guild Surveyor (23)
Marg Sabl Closure (1)
Precision Ion Engines (3)

Mining Guild Surveyor (23)
Marg Sabl Closure (1)
Precision Ion Engines (3)

Mining Guild Surveyor (23)
Marg Sabl Closure (1)
Precision Ion Engines (3)

Mining Guild Surveyor (23)
Marg Sabl Closure (1)
Precision Ion Engines (3)

Mining Guild Surveyor (23)
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Precision Ion Engines (3)
Total: 196

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I like these lists you post. I don’t even want to play HS, but when I see these, I perk up a bit.

@kris40k As a 25+year vet of Magic, this conversation pleases me. But never in all my years has anyone ever called me a spike/anything. I've always been a Vorthos/Johnny with a Timmy twist. And as long as I've known the Maro theory, I've seen people muck it up. I agree with @Stay OT Leader that your understanding of the types isn't quite there. I made my argument with the understanding of players desires concepts in my mind. I've worked on half a dozen projects as a consultant or tester for minis and card games and have had to use this set of ideas to shoot down more potential games to the drawing board than I'd like. Your reasoning doesn't work because you expect the player to be happy solely because they're walking their own path. That's not enough.

The notion that the formats divvy up those player archetypes is silly. Both formats have something for all those types of players, and should in the future keep sure to keep it that way. There's combos to be made in both for John's, that will lead to different things. There's big boom things to use for Tammy in both, Spikes you all got right, they go for whatever so long as it's meta-good in the end. So give it a few weeks in Hyperspace and they'll be set to take some other meta winner and go pwn some folk. And the Vorthos is at all times content because there's no shortage of crazy references to the lore everywhere. Formats to Vorthos don't mean much besides smaller formats generally being more capable of supporting story play successfully. They just don't like that the whole avengers team can't assemble in the smaller formats lol.

Counterpoints.

Spike/Johnny will be attracted to Extended because the meta *is* defined. That makes the prize of finding the meta breaking twist to an existing list, or an all new one, all the more audacious and enticing of a goal. It becomes a holy grail and they want it. Especially when new stuff comes up to provide the ammo. They like HS just fine for the reasons you mention, but the real treasure, the glory, the prestige, that's in Extended.

Got good news, and bad news Kris. Bad news is your not quite the Johnny that you think you are. If you like theme, and want to play things like an Epic list, and considering the lists you mention, your definitely more a Vorthos. Good news, that means we're alike. Welcome to the party! Vorthos/johnny bros!

Timmy is sad that the biggest baddest dude in the game isn't in all the formats. Timmy then sees that each format had it's own biggest baddest dude. Timmy uses the different BBDs in their own formats to smash some face with his friends. Timmy lives a peaceful smashy life. Timmy is happy.

One important thing that gets missed every time the Maro Theorem of Player Identity comes up, is that not just Spike wants to win. They all want to. Johnny's combo doesn't mean a thing if it doesn't get him somewhere. TimTam isn't satisfied when the big dragon/Millennium Falcon doesn't smash something to dust. Even Vorthos needs the plot of his machinations representing the lore to actually prove to be a threat. Maro eventually talks about this when he checks in on the subject from time to time.

It's not just enough for each player type of motivation to have the tools to be on their own path. The path has to go somewhere.

And players don’t just fit into one of those neat boxes anyway. We are all our own blends of different sub-types, and often a changing blend depending on our moods.

@ForceSensitive You are right, I did mess up a few of the names of the archetypes (Johnny/Vorthos) and realized that awhile after the fact, but you can swap some of the names around and the concept still stands regardless of the misspoken details . Sure, a Timmy may enjoy fielding whatever the BBD of this Hyperspace season is, but another Timmy may be getting upset every time he finds one he likes, it gets squished the next season, so he finds refuge in Extended where it doesn't change unless there is a new product. But I digress.

The concept is not to divvy up the various players into separate formats, or put them into neat boxes like it reads like you and SOTL think I mean to. Its not that, its that certain formats may appeal to certain archetypes in general. I'm not insisting that this archetype will only enjoy this format and that archetype will only enjoy that format. These aren't hard and fast rules.

Most importantly is the take away from the theory is that different players want different things from the same game , and that the different formats may provide a better experience for different players. People who are insisting that Extended is a dumpster fire or that Hyperspace is just a buy-more format are mistaken because while the format may not appeal to them, they have appeal to different players. This isn't me being some sort of EnLigHtEneD CeNTriSt either (I've made it clear that I dislike playing HS personally), just that I get that what I like and what I want to see isn't what someone else will also want to see, and therefore people need to understand that a format may not be for them but its actually for someone else .

I also understand that all the archetypes want to see wins with their respective lists, the difference is between the quality vs quantity of wins. Sure, Vorthos wants to put up wins with their Trench Run list, but the difference between a Vorthos and a Vorthos/Spike is that when they take their Trench Run list to the local tournament and go 3-3, one goes home happy, and the other comes to a forum ******* that X-Wing is broken because Rebel T-65s and Y-Wings aren't competitive.

11 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

And players don’t just fit into one of those neat boxes anyway. We are all our own blends of different sub-types, and often a changing blend depending on our moods.

This is how I feel about any of these attempts to group people by categories. I just don't buy into the concept. People aren't so tidily pigeonholed. 😎

I've also found it frustratingly difficult to pigeon-hole people. It's nearly impossible unless you have abnormally small people or immensely large pigeons.

What can I say, it's been a long week.

You can't pigeon-hole individuals.

Large groups of people: way easier.

Well, most of us Pigeon Hole our ships.

Plano boxes and the like are smaller than these, but the analogy fits.

Heh. You guys are high-larious. 🍺