Why doesn't Hyperspace format have its own points list too?

2 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Why doesn't Hyperspace format have its own points list too?

Because it'd cause too many headaches, it'd take too much book-keeping.

alternate hot-take.

ffg is being super nice by giving us incentive to use generic swarms when they secretly know that everyone is playing online anyways for the moment and doesn't need to buy new ships to accommodate the HS meta.

To be clear I do still believe restricted formats are the best path forward for Atomic. Nothing has changed for me on that front. It is ideal both for one off weird local kit casual tournaments and for official competitive events. I would personally prefer to see higher frequency strange formats for the local level and a separate restricted equivalent for competitive play. The more restrictive the better.

My point was not to say that I think this version of Hyperspace would not work for competitive play, it definitely would and is not remotely as busted as people here are making it out to be. More was just saying official tournament X-Wing does not exist and probably won't for another two years.

The community ignored it even while they raged against the Crack Nantex machine. The contents of Hyperspace are irrelevant to its adoption given the majority of player preferences. That ship sailed a long time ago, well before this latest round of changes, and absolutely is not worth fighting over. So yea play what you want man.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Long Live Resort Hyperspace.

This.

I think it's probably shaking out that restricted formats are prone to overperforming things, just as objectives can be tilted by shenanigans.

Extended can't be ignored as beyond repair. Unless you want to ofc. But it needs to be enjoyable and variable for X Wing to stick around.

I don't think it needs much. It's just never going to please everyone, given the array of wildly different preferences.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

That's a balance issue, however, not a Hyperspace vs Extended issue.

Banning everything good against the lists you might want to play is an incredibly unfair ask for just about everyone else.

Previous Hyperspace editions had been well-rounded enough within the factions that it wasn't that hard, IMHO, to ask for at least equal Hyperspace time. I can't say anything like that anymore. I'm glad it exists, I think it's kinda neat. But it's not really designed to be a well-rounded format that shaves off the most broken stuff (was it ever really that?), it's instead just an interesting and thought-provoking format.

So when extended gets it's balance to the point where anyone can play whatever they want, your point will be correct. Until then, go Fort HS.

So long as both formats force me to play things I may not want to because the balance isn't there in one, and the ship isn't available in the other, then I'd rather play the format that it's more mentally challenging and skill testing. Tough choices are more interesting then having many choices.

And unless I'm not extremely mistaken, this is the largest card pool we've had yet in HS. Imps have an astounding 9 ships to choose from in chassis selections, some of the other factions have 8 themselves. Only going to get even better if there's a card pack or something on the next 6 months. So I don't see a shortage of options.

21 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

So when extended gets it's balance to the point where anyone can play whatever they want, your point will be correct. Until then, go Fort HS.

So long as both formats force me to play things I may not want to because the balance isn't there in one, and the ship isn't available in the other, then I'd rather play the format that it's more mentally challenging and skill testing. Tough choices are more interesting then having many choices.

And unless I'm not extremely mistaken, this is the largest card pool we've had yet in HS. Imps have an astounding 9 ships to choose from in chassis selections, some of the other factions have 8 themselves. Only going to get even better if there's a card pack or something on the next 6 months. So I don't see a shortage of options.

Forts are dreary and cold and dull.

Resorts are fun and happy places.

FFG gave the pro-HS players a gift this season. Hyperspace doesn't have to be the fort full of cranky holdouts who hate fun. It can be the tropical resort to relax with sea and sun and sand. Maybe next season it'll be the ski resort for some downhill excitement with spiked cocoa afterwards. The pro-HS crowd can make it a resort, rather than a fort, and that'd be better for everyone.

The way to kill Hyperspace *ENTIRELY* right now it to scold Extended players. It's incredibly disingenuous to pretend that faction identity hasn't been gutted for a lot of players, and that Hyperspace more than ever isn't a format for everyone . Pro-Hyperspace folks would do best to invite in, rather than get cranky with anyone who isn't excited. When hyperspace selections are as skewed as this, kill as many archetypes as this HS season does, to demand that it's the primary format is just going to drive folks away.

I've always been a big proponent of format swap-off. The way to convince other folks to play Hyperspace with you is to play some Extended with them, or vice versa. Try to work it out among your group that, if you play some of what they like, they'll be more indulge your preferred format.

@theBitterFig Was I scolding extended players? Have I yet said anything negative about someone who prefers extended for any of the reasons they choose? If you think I did, you read way too much into what I wrote my dude. Also please cite it so it can be amended if it's actually stated. I've not treated HS with anything but excitement since we got it,(tag my first post on page one of this thread) and encouragement to others to play in it. All I've focused on for the existence of HS is to defend its merits from artificial detractions that don't follow logically. Such as saying you can play whatever you want and have fun in extended as a strong point for it being preferred, because that isn't true. You can play whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you'll have a good time with it necessarily. Kris submitted an idea, I demonstrated why it doesn't work, you tried to defend it, I showed the defense didn't work. And that was all.

At no point did I tell you or anyone else not to play extended, or that it was inferior in any way. Only did I point out that the reason you and Kris gave was not true, and not a logical reasoning to prop one over the other. Extended has other merits that are better to use, you should use those examples instead. Like if you want to play crazy power combos, extended is for you. If your very familiar with every dial in the game, go extended, you'll be more comfortable than a newer player.

I know if you go back far enough in my posts in general you'll even find the post where I describe at one time the usual game night where I'm showing up with a list for each format and we do trade games, one ex for one hs. So apparently we agree completely on that. And how I only wished more locally would take the offer instead of being HyperHaters. And here after only two days to even digest the new season, you're pudu'ing it yourself. Like really dude, how you going to put all that emphasis on it being a format 'not for everyone', saying it's full of cranky folk who hate fun, then turn around and say you should swap games? People in proHS don't hate fun, they just like a particular type of it. Why are you insinuating otherwise?

Factions identities weren't gutted, their built into the cards effects and ships themselves. Here's a cool one for example, Empire is the Tie faction, lots of variants of TIE, and true to form they have the most ships to choose from and mainly they're TIEs. The usual poster children pilots are just out of it for awhile, how the archetypes shift will be interesting, making room for new ones. It's like in Magic when they have a block or set rotate. Black almost always cares about the graveyard, but how it does so can morph. After only two days we can't have any idea for certain how this HS is really going to look and who the Star players are going to be. I'm officially inviting you to give it an honest chance for a few weeks, see some events come out of it, and then decide. Sunny be a hater man, come to Fort HS for a bit, the resorts been here the whole time. Spiked arnold palmers on tap my guy! Join the party every once in awhile.

OK, my comment was a pretty obviously sarcastic response to a reasonable question that said, "Can we at least try HS before calling it a bad format?" I thought that seemed like a reasonable point of view so I immediately wrote a hyperbolic response that was in no ways meant to be taken seriously. All I meant was: "Yeah, maybe we should try to make a list and play it a few times before crapping all over the new format."

You like Extended cuz you get to fly anything? Cool. I don't like Extended because so can everyone else and some choose to fly the most busted combination of anti-fun that can be crammed into 200 points. (Or more likely 190 points so I get to make all my hard decisions last and feel like a genius.) There are a bunch of pretty nasty cards in this game. There are fewer in Hyperspace. That's a good enough reason for me to prefer HS. If the ship or pilot you like isn't in HS and that's reason enough for you to avoid the format, OK.

I think HS haters fall into a couple broad categories.

1. "I want all my toys because more is more and I like to have fun."
2. "I want all my OP wombo-combos so I can crush my opponent's list and their will to live."

If you're the first one, sorry if I offended you. Not my intent. If you're the second? I dunno, go play Magic or something. Please.

22 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

1. "I want all my OP wombo-combos so I can crush my opponent's list and their will to live."

Just to say, I've encountered a lot of people in X Wing and I don't think any of them were actually like this.

It must be a rare condition.

Your numerical system lacks a vital comparative percentile, so can't be viewed as data.

I mean, all those NyMirandas didn't fly themselves.

Honestly I don't care what format is used. I'll play both. What I want is to be able to play face to face but, thanks to the Covid, we're limited to TTS or Vassel for games unless you have the ability to play outside. I miss the interaction with a real life player at the same table less than 6 feet away without a damned mask on my face.

19 minutes ago, T70 Driver said:

Honestly I don't care what format is used. I'll play both. What I want is to be able to play face to face but, thanks to the Covid, we're limited to TTS or Vassel for games unless you have the ability to play outside. I miss the interaction with a real life player at the same table less than 6 feet away without a damned mask on my face.

Completely agree I'm lucky in that I can play my roommate but it would be nice to play some one new in person. I miss it a lot.

In a perfect world I would play 40% extended, 40% hyperspace, and 20% extended variety keeps things fresh but right now I would play whatever the other person wanted to play.

15 minutes ago, reqent said:

Completely agree I'm lucky in that I can play my roommate but it would be nice to play some one new in person. I miss it a lot.

In a perfect world I would play 40% extended, 40% hyperspace, and 20% extended variety keeps things fresh but right now I would play whatever the other person wanted to play.

Agreed. I will admit that all of my lists for Hyperspace events were made illegal with the changes but I don't mind. It's given me the push to try to make new lists that are Hyperspace legal and I think I've found a few that will be fun to play.

I just took a quite look at the Imperial options, and kind of just laughed. The options are really goofy. I kind of love it? This feels like the first time of them actually fulfilling the promise of Hyperspace not merely being Type II for X-wing, curating the meta, only targeting the outright top and moving out older ships other than the core ships of each faction. Making the format more than just "Extended, but with less ships".

Now, the danger with playing with the format like this is that you will alienate some players when they lose their favorite squad, or ship, or way of playing. But, if we could get these updates more regularly, that would help, as you would just need to wait for the next shift.

I can understand why people would be angry. But, having Hyperspace like this is better for the game. A shifting meta game like this will keep the competitive burnout lower. And it encourages purchases in a way that is less... direct than the traditional rotation model.

3 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

I think HS haters fall into a couple broad categories.

1. "I want all my toys because more is more and I like to have fun."
2. "I want all my OP wombo-combos so I can crush my opponent's list and their will to live."

If you're the first one, sorry if I offended you. Not my intent. If you're the second? I dunno, go play Magic or something. Please.

I know too many non-competitive folks who, if they said they just want to fly Extended to fly the ships they like, even if they're bad, that I really can't justify demanding they don't.

If Hyperspace was designed to be a truly balanced format, instead of "cool stuff that's different" I'd feel a lot better about it, or asking folks to switch between the two periodically.

**

I'll also add that in my experience, Hyperspace vs Extended hasn't mattered *at all* in terms of wombo-combo or OP nonsense. Jank vs Hypercompetitive is an entirely separate axis from format. There's players who play chill lists in any format. There's players who dial it to 11. I'm sure a lot of 1e Nymranda players switched to Boba-Fenn in the previous Hyperspace rounds. Spamtex or 5A (back when they were actually a strong {toxic?} list) were Hyperspace, with nearly all the tools as Extended.

On top of that, there's plenty of non-combo ways to just have no chill. Kylo aces lists don't really have much in the way of combos, but can still lead to incredibly one-sided and unfun gameplay in Hyperspace.

2 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

I mean, all those NyMirandas didn't fly themselves.

This is why Fort Hyperspace would probably never really work. Combos often get the blame, but NPE probably has more to do with the players than the lists. Banning stuff won't always fix it.

Just seems best to try to hype up Resort Hyperspace as a spiffy new respite from the same-old-same-old Extended. Not everyone is going to want to visit, but trying to brick up a tonne of stuff because a small number of lists are toxic probably isn't going to get more folks to party at the Resort.

3 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

I just took a quite look at the Imperial options, and kind of just laughed. The options are really goofy. I kind of love it?

This.

Hyperspace is madcap in a way that could be really fun. Not always for everyone, but there's a lot of neat stuff there.

But just as the format has gotten a lot less serious, the pro-HS crowd ought to get less serious, too. At very least, folks shouldn't pretend like it isn't goofy.

3 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

OK, my comment was a pretty obviously sarcastic response to a reasonable question that said, "Can we at least try HS before calling it a bad format?" I thought that seemed like a reasonable point of view so I immediately wrote a hyperbolic response that was in no ways meant to be taken seriously. All I meant was: "Yeah, maybe we should try to make a list and play it a few times before crapping all over the new format."

You like Extended cuz you get to fly anything? Cool. I don't like Extended because so can everyone else and some choose to fly the most busted combination of anti-fun that can be crammed into 200 points. (Or more likely 190 points so I get to make all my hard decisions last and feel like a genius.) There are a bunch of pretty nasty cards in this game. There are fewer in Hyperspace. That's a good enough reason for me to prefer HS. If the ship or pilot you like isn't in HS and that's reason enough for you to avoid the format, OK.

I think HS haters fall into a couple broad categories.

1. "I want all my toys because more is more and I like to have fun."
2. "I want all my OP wombo-combos so I can crush my opponent's list and their will to live."

If you're the first one, sorry if I offended you. Not my intent. If you're the second? I dunno, go play Magic or something. Please.

There are many, many more reasons why some one would not like Hyperspace. And frankly, with changes like we have just seen, there are very valid reasons for someone to avoid Hyperspace for a bit. Someone who has spent a lot of time flying one squad and getting good at that could have just a lot of what they view as valuable time if their squad just became illegal.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Hyperspace is madcap in a way that could be really fun. Not always for everyone, but there's a lot of neat stuff there.

But just as the format has gotten a lot less serious, the pro-HS crowd ought to get less serious, too. At very least, folks shouldn't pretend like it isn't goofy.

^^^^^ This.

I mean, I wouldn't even *think* about running six interceptors in Extended...

I would not call Hyperspace a "non-serious" format. This version of Hyperspace is just so, so very different than the previous iterations.

You’re not supposed to decide if you’re a Hyperspace player or an Extended player. You’re an X-Wing player so embrace the variety of experience that having both formats brings.

Frankly many people don’t have the time for two formats. Didn’t last season with all the plethora of ability to play. Now more than ever without the ability to play.

there isn’t a need for a divide between format players. But the drivel used in previous arguments was divisive, wrong and now shows more than ever the failings of hyperspace that people were unwilling to recognize.
that language has consequences. And those people will reap them now.

Goofy and serious are not mutually exclusive. I can be serious about my goofing. Will this HS season have some stuff winging it like never before? Heck yeah! Is it fun and weird while we get it in the honeymoon stage? You bet! Give it a few weeks and events data coming in though and the dust will settle into some serious lists that players will have to account for. A new meta will form and it will be great fun to see new experiments cut their teeth against the forming structure as it goes along.

I don't get the angst over "losing"old HS lists though. Like, we all knew it was rotational and things were going to come and go. So you didn't really lose it, heck now that's just your EX list while you work on something new for HS. I encourage you, if you find that your lists are now 'out' of the format, to not discourage. The skills you learned flying them and refining those lists and strategies is going to be your skill stepping stone to the next level of your next creation. Blank canvas, but better skills and new colors of paint to throw at it. Your still going to have your skill of gauging ranges and moves. You'll still be building your understanding of action efficiencies. Your just going back a step so you can take two more forward.

1 hour ago, underling said:

I mean, I wouldn't even *think* about running six interceptors in Extended...

I think I'm more interested that 6 TAP is in HS now. Like, that could actually be a thing that worries me in this new season. Wish I had enough to throw it down and try lol 😅 😂

48 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Frankly many people don’t have the time for two formats.

I don’t really understand that. If you’ve got time for six games of X-Wing you can play 6 HS, 6 Extended, or some of each. Playing two formats doesn’t require double the time.

1 hour ago, Stay OT Leader said:

I don’t really understand that. If you’ve got time for six games of X-Wing you can play 6 HS, 6 Extended, or some of each. Playing two formats doesn’t require double the time.

When your browsing netflix do you watch literally everything in alphabetical order, or do you avoid things you not like because consuming them meant spending less time consuming things you do and you can use your basic judgement and awareness of your own psychology to gauge if you enjoy it or not?

Same, super basic principle to the point I suspect your trying to mess with people. Human preference is generally used to make choices on how to spend a limited amount of time. Your right in that you DON'T need to spend twice as much time to play X-wing to play both. In fact, you can't, because time is a resource. What trying to play both does is split your time between the two modes, meaning you lose time on the mode you like the most. If the other mode is novel to you, you might gain utility from experiencing it that makes up for that 'shortfall' from the preferred mode, but there is no reality where this model of thinking reflects anything resembling rational human behavior. Its just... super obvious no one acts the way your trying to pretend is logical and detached.

I don't spend an equal amount of time playing Drafts and Constructed in MTG, despite both being part of the experience, because I enjoy one more than the other. I do play both, but that is to keep things fresh, and I don't play modes I don't like (Like commander, I am a heretic I know!) even TO be novel.

Hyperspace basically exists for people who really like list teching in new meta environments, which some people might interpret as a 'meme' or 'silly' which is fine, because if you aren't that target demographic it is really silly to do something like ban every Imp ace. And its implementation for the 'build on your feet' types isn't ideal either. Hyperspace and Extended aren't even that different which makes it hard to even justify flip flopping on them as a novelty, like it might be for people who like constructed or draft in a trading card game trying the other.

So its pretty reasonable for people to hard pass on spending the time, not to mention bringing multiple lists to a casual tournament and spending time practicing them and building them, or the investment to buy different models for the different environments, even if others are excited for the format.

13 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Just to say, I've encountered a lot of people in X Wing and I don't think any of them were actually like this.

It must be a rare condition.

I'm unabashedly pro-HS, but I have to concede I have zero experience with how players in X-Wing actually behave. My related background comes from being a casual MtG and a competitive Decipher SW CCG player and, alas, the "I'm here to dominate, crush, and rejoice in the tears of your women" players were everywhere and one of the main reasons I dropped out of the CCG scene. When I speak negatively about the "meta" and the "super-powered deck (list) of the month" chasers, it all comes from those NPE days. I am ever-so-willing to be shown that (once I can start actually playing X-Wing against real people) the folks sitting across from me are more into a fun experience than ego stroking. It should be great! 😎

I also confess I have some misgivings about being HS centric, in light of the fact my expected local opponents will most likely be as N00b-ish as I and might be expected to have somewhat limited ship resources to hand. Some might not even know what HS is, much less have enough HS-legal resources to field such a list. In fact, I don't even expect we'd be playing for time and points, rather just last-player-standing a la how one wins at Fly Casual.

I have the idea that a lot of casual play doesn't involve time or points and I have zero expectations of getting into competitive OP. Again, I tend to feel negatively about that scene for the aforementioned expectation of aggressive NPE.