2 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Same here. Brexit or Remain?

Remain, dear god though the lead up to that vote. Both sides were utterly awful, the people and the parties.

7 minutes ago, Ebak said:

Remain, dear god though the lead up to that vote. Both sides were utterly awful, the people and the parties.

Totally agree. I was always a Conservative voter; right up until the point David Cameron decided to use a referendum on Europe as a campaign tool. At that point, I simply couldn't side with them.

To be clear - I wasn't against the idea of a referendum on Europe in principle. The public should have a voice. But it should have been something that was investigated, studied, evaluated and thoroughly examined before presenting the o the public. It should NOT have ever been used as a hook to win an election.

It caused deep divisions in the population of the manner I described above. The elections that followed - May, Johnson - ended up being one policy elections. Decided purely on that issue alone.

Even without Covid we were facing a period of real economic upheaval. Given the events of 2020, it could end up being much worse. The effects are going to be felt for generations.

46 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

In the words of the Arbiter, were it so easy.

As welcome as the result was, it wasn't one-sided. It was close. There are powerful voices on both sides of the debate, and it's already been shown in the last few days (and in this topic) that the result of the vote isn't going to be the be all and end all that people hope it will be. There are massive, deep-rooted divisions within the population. Divisions that have been fed and have festered for years now. Divisions that have split families and estranged friends. If we're going to heal these wounds, we're going to need to find common ground.

Finding that common ground isn't going to be easy, especially with the politics on both sides being so incredibly partisan. Trump tried his best to hurt, hinder or revoke his predecessor's policies. Biden has already announced he intends to immediately revoke some of Trump's. Even simple things - like Biden pleading with the American public to wear masks - are going to cause outrage and be used as ammunition.

We're facing near unprecedented economical, medical and social issues. We can't move forward as a society if we're split down the middle, and we're not going to change that by ignoring other's opinions or pretending they don't exist. There's a lot of healing to be done.

I understand what you're saying, and four years ago I would've agreed with you. When Trump was elected, my position was "wait and see what he does and judge him on that" (which is, incidentally, my position on Biden as well).

-

What I had to begrudgingly realize with engagement is that, not only was I not helping, but I was actively making it worse. I kept right-wing people on my FB wall and engaged with them about certain policies, but, in retrospect, all I was doing was allowing them to drift further to the extreme and support gradually more extreme policies, but still believe their own position or behavior was reasonable. I thought if you kept meeting someone in the middle, that they would drift to you or, at least, not move further away. This was the opposite of what happened. It made them easier to drift far to the extreme.

-

My general policy pre-Trump was not to remove someone from my feed, even if I disagreed with them. I changed this for a few reasons. 1: Person laughing at Kyle Rittenhouse murdering three people 2: Reposting videos with a slew of actual nazis in the comments using racial slurs 3: Straight up lying to people about COVID. In every instance, I confronted the person and they just didn't think it was a big deal, Nazis, murdering people, and downplaying pandemics had all become wholly justifiable to them. No further engagement would prove fruitful with any of these people.

-

this is where I had to fundamentally reevaluate what you can and can't "just disagree" on. you can't have a reasonable discussion with a person that has based their entire position on the world being flat. The foundation of their ideology and position is just so far away from reality, that there's not meeting them in the middle and nothing to be gained from engagement. If anything, not engaging has a better chance of getting them to rethink their position i.e. there's big difference between trying to talk to someone about a topic and them just laughing and walking away vs serious engagement.

-

If someone was concerned about whether Joe Biden was up to the challenges before them, I could discuss that and even sympathize. He definitely has issues as a politician and I cited them in my youtube video where I made predictions about the election. If someone thinks Joe Biden will destroy America, that conversation isn't going anywhere.

-

As an aside, I live in Georgia. I've seen more idiots with third reich decals on the back of their pickups (swastika and all), heard more "n" words (complete with the hard R) and had to endure more racist tirades from customers that were appalled that the person in front of them in line was speaking Spanish, in the last 4 years than in my entire life combined. Had friends endure blatant racsim. And then I look at middle class white people thinking Trump was a good president because of the economy (while standing next to neo nazis) and I'm just blown away at how oblivious they are at what's happening around them. There's not a discussion to be had there, they just choose to ignore reality.

double post

So Trump is a Nazi like my great-grandfather?

I am from Montreal, Canada.

I am surprised that this conversation haven't happened before on this forum.

I do not want to be a moderator in this debate, but the point of this forum is to debate about X-Wing. Not the presidentials. I personnally think that X-Wing can be one of those common grounds where people can have a good time while putting their political views aside. There are smart people on both sides of the fence, and there are extreme and very emotive people on both sides.

I wish that people on this forum don't follow this hole, and close it. It would be the best for all of the players on this forum.

I do not wish to view my opponent wearing a political sign in my local store to play against me. And I will do the same mark of respect, to keep what could make some very ugly stuff out of the place where I go for fun.

55 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

I understand what you're saying, and four years ago I would've agreed with you...

Thanks for taking the time to share that @MasterShake2 . I can see where you're at with the entire situation. It makes for depressing reading, sadly.

It's not isolated to America, either - I've seen similar things happening here during and following the Brexit elections. As @Ebak rightly said, people on both sides acted awfully during the elections, and that's part of the problem with the politics of division we've been seeing. People become entrenched in their beliefs, however valid they are, and refuse to listen to or even try to take on board the alternative point of view.

There are moderates, though. There are people willing to listen to reasoned arguments and adjust their viewpoints as evidence is provided. It's the moderates we need to win over, shift the divisions from near 50 / 50 to 75 / 25 or below. You'll never be able to win everyone over, but most functioning human beings are capable of reason.

4 minutes ago, Silver_leader said:

I do not want to be a moderator in this debate, but the point of this forum is to debate about X-Wing. Not the presidentials.

Sure, this is an Off-Topic discussion, but this is the Off-Topic forum 😉

oof, now i can't function with reason

7 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Sure, this is an Off-Topic discussion, but this is the Off-Topic forum 😉

I agree. But there are some subjects that are off topics that may create more hurt than good.

Mandalorian episodes are off topic of X-Wing

17 minutes ago, Silver_leader said:

I do not want to be a moderator in this debate, but the point of this forum is to debate about X-Wing.

I'm just saying my piece and people can take it for what it is. The last four years have been exhausting and I'm just happy that part is over even if the next part will be far from easy.

17 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

I'm just saying my piece and people can take it for what it is. The last four years have been exhausting and I'm just happy that part is over even if the next part will be far from easy.

So Orange man bad, Sleepy Joe bad, but not as bad as that Nazi man made our country energy independent?

1 hour ago, Silver_leader said:

I do not want to be a moderator in this debate, but the point of this forum is to debate about X-Wing. Not the presidentials. I personnally think that X-Wing can be one of those common grounds where people can have a good time while putting their political views aside. There are smart people on both sides of the fence, and there are extreme and very emotive people on both sides.

Agreed.

Couple things....Nazi is short for National Socialist. Socialism isn't a right ideology, its on the left.

Second thing... fascism is a left ideology and all fascist regimes in the history of our world have been on the left.

If Trump was a fascist, the liberal media wouldn't exist today. They would of been sleeping with the fishes a few years ago.

1 hour ago, Zarovichx said:

Couple things....Nazi is short for National Socialist. Socialism isn't a right ideology, its on the left.

Second thing... fascism is a left ideology and all fascist regimes in the history of our world have been on the left.

If Trump was a fascist, the liberal media wouldn't exist today. They would of been sleeping with the fishes a few years ago.

Looks like the Wikipedia pages for facism, the far right etc will need a couple of edits then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

To be fair, the only person who has actually said that Trump is a facist in this topic (by way of a strawman argument, because of course) is apparently the Trump supporter. *shrugs*

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Looks like the Wikipedia pages for facism, the far right etc will need a couple of edits then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

To be fair, the only person who has actually said that Trump is a facist in this topic (by way of a strawman argument, because of course) is apparently the Trump supporter. *shrugs*

It is an accusation towards him that is brought up allot.

7 hours ago, Zarovichx said:

Couple things....Nazi is short for National Socialist. Socialism isn't a right ideology, its on the left.

Second thing... fascism is a left ideology and all fascist regimes in the history of our world have been on the left.

If Trump was a fascist, the liberal media wouldn't exist today. They would of been sleeping with the fishes a few years ago.

The Nazi party, despite using the name socialist were NOT socialists. Far from it in fact. A bit of research can see that they really just used the name socialist.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/05/right-needs-stop-falsely-claiming-that-nazis-were-socialists/%3foutputType=amp

Honestly, I do consider Trump a fascist. Look at the rhetoric he used. As for the liberal media, there was definite an attempt - not a good one thankfully, to make them “sleep with the fishes”. suppression, calling out “fake news” was the attempt. Thankfully there was a significant push back against that.

I'm just glad that the cheeto is out of office. As a Canadian, I was getting ready to pull a Bugs Bunny and saw America off the continent. 😜

32 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I'm just glad that the cheeto is out of office. As a Canadian, I was getting ready to pull a Bugs Bunny and saw America off the continent.

And here is where I have a little twist to toss you. The count isn't finalized yet and it looks like there was some shenanigans going on with the ballot counting in several states which is being looked into. The news outlets may have jumped the gun in "declaring" the winner, much like they did back when Gore lost (which wasn't the first time either). Might as well keep the saw handy, Bugs, just in case.

14 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

I understand what you're saying, and four years ago I would've agreed with you. When Trump was elected, my position was "wait and see what he does and judge him on that" (which is, incidentally, my position on Biden as well).

-

What I had to begrudgingly realize with engagement is that, not only was I not helping, but I was actively making it worse. I kept right-wing people on my FB wall and engaged with them about certain policies, but, in retrospect, all I was doing was allowing them to drift further to the extreme and support gradually more extreme policies, but still believe their own position or behavior was reasonable. I thought if you kept meeting someone in the middle, that they would drift to you or, at least, not move further away. This was the opposite of what happened. It made them easier to drift far to the extreme.

-

My general policy pre-Trump was not to remove someone from my feed, even if I disagreed with them. I changed this for a few reasons. 1: Person laughing at Kyle Rittenhouse murdering three people 2: Reposting videos with a slew of actual nazis in the comments using racial slurs 3: Straight up lying to people about COVID. In every instance, I confronted the person and they just didn't think it was a big deal, Nazis, murdering people, and downplaying pandemics had all become wholly justifiable to them. No further engagement would prove fruitful with any of these people.

-

this is where I had to fundamentally reevaluate what you can and can't "just disagree" on. you can't have a reasonable discussion with a person that has based their entire position on the world being flat. The foundation of their ideology and position is just so far away from reality, that there's not meeting them in the middle and nothing to be gained from engagement. If anything, not engaging has a better chance of getting them to rethink their position i.e. there's big difference between trying to talk to someone about a topic and them just laughing and walking away vs serious engagement.

-

If someone was concerned about whether Joe Biden was up to the challenges before them, I could discuss that and even sympathize. He definitely has issues as a politician and I cited them in my youtube video where I made predictions about the election. If someone thinks Joe Biden will destroy America, that conversation isn't going anywhere.

-

As an aside, I live in Georgia. I've seen more idiots with third reich decals on the back of their pickups (swastika and all), heard more "n" words (complete with the hard R) and had to endure more racist tirades from customers that were appalled that the person in front of them in line was speaking Spanish, in the last 4 years than in my entire life combined. Had friends endure blatant racsim. And then I look at middle class white people thinking Trump was a good president because of the economy (while standing next to neo nazis) and I'm just blown away at how oblivious they are at what's happening around them. There's not a discussion to be had there, they just choose to ignore reality.

Rolling pure hits over here, Master Shake. No disagreement at all.

16 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

In the words of the Arbiter, were it so easy.

As welcome as the result was, it wasn't one-sided. It was close. There are powerful voices on both sides of the debate, and it's already been shown in the last few days (and in this topic) that the result of the vote isn't going to be the be all and end all that people hope it will be. There are massive, deep-rooted divisions within the population. Divisions that have been fed and have festered for years now. Divisions that have split families and estranged friends. If we're going to heal these wounds, we're going to need to find common ground.

Finding that common ground isn't going to be easy, especially with the politics on both sides being so incredibly partisan. Trump tried his best to hurt, hinder or revoke his predecessor's policies. Biden has already announced he intends to immediately revoke some of Trump's. Even simple things - like Biden pleading with the American public to wear masks - are going to cause outrage and be used as ammunition.

We're facing near unprecedented economical, medical and social issues. We can't move forward as a society if we're split down the middle, and we're not going to change that by ignoring other's opinions or pretending they don't exist. There's a lot of healing to be done.

Seems like you're rolling all hits over here, ****.

As for reaching across the aisle we definitely shouldn't. This is not a time to say GG, it's a time to say, "After four years of trying to beat us into nonexistence, maybe it's about time we fought fire with fire." - as a direct target of the far right, civility is impossible. Debate cannot be had if my personhood is the debate, since I am not being treated as a person (or, woman for that matter) - nor is it possible for the PoC I live with and love. It's just, brutal for us. We've got a lot of folks in a majority that aren't LGBT telling us to shake hands when we've been brutalized for years countless. It just isn't on the cards.

14 hours ago, Silver_leader said:

I am from Montreal, Canada.

I am surprised that this conversation haven't happened before on this forum.

I do not want to be a moderator in this debate, but the point of this forum is to debate about X-Wing. Not the presidentials. I personnally think that X-Wing can be one of those common grounds where people can have a good time while putting their political views aside. There are smart people on both sides of the fence, and there are extreme and very emotive people on both sides.

I wish that people on this forum don't follow this hole, and close it. It would be the best for all of the players on this forum.

I do not wish to view my opponent wearing a political sign in my local store to play against me. And I will do the same mark of respect, to keep what could make some very ugly stuff out of the place where I go for fun.

I don't want to play a game with fascists quite frankly. It's nice to see masks come off here so I know who is and isn't a danger to me personally, or people I know and love. I can't put aside, "You deserve to have conversion therapy to your assigned gender at birth" as a political view the guy across the table from me holds. His view wants me in a situation where I want to die. I cannot abide by this kind of person. Someone who sees me or my beloved as less than human.

10 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

And here is where I have a little twist to toss you. The count isn't finalized yet and it looks like there was some shenanigans going on with the ballot counting in several states which is being looked into. The news outlets may have jumped the gun in "declaring" the winner, much like they did back when Gore lost (which wasn't the first time either). Might as well keep the saw handy, Bugs, just in case.

The Incumbent's cabinet is firing folks left and right and replacing them with zealots - and outright refusing to concede. It's... Kind of terrifying to be honest. It feels like they're getting to clamp down as hard as humanly possible and we uh, really do not need that.

That alone should be alarming to any and everyone of any political belief, that the administration is completely foregoing due process at every turn as they grasp for power. It's horrifying.

20 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

As for reaching across the aisle we definitely shouldn't. This is not a time to say GG, it's a time to say, "After four years of trying to beat us into nonexistence, maybe it's about time we fought fire with fire." - as a direct target of the far right, civility is impossible. Debate cannot be had if my personhood is the debate, since I am not being treated as a person (or, woman for that matter) - nor is it possible for the PoC I live with and love. It's just, brutal for us. We've got a lot of folks in a majority that aren't LGBT telling us to shake hands when we've been brutalized for years countless. It just isn't on the cards.

🤨 And you support one of the chief architects of the bull you and your girl have been dealing with? That's not even bringing up the **** his running mate pulled on POC and other minorities out here in Cali during her time as DA. Both State level and in Frisco...

20 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

I can't put aside, "You deserve to have conversion therapy to your assigned gender at birth" as a political view the guy across the table from me holds. His view wants me in a situation where I want to die. I cannot abide by this kind of person. Someone who sees me or my beloved as less than human.

Sounds like he needs to reassess his own values, that's the same exact type of **** politicos and their sycophants on the left have been threatening to do to 2Aers... When they aren't saying they just want us dead. 😠

22 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

and outright refusing to concede.

With as close as it is he shouldn't concede. ****wad or not.

3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

With as close as it is he shouldn't concede. ****wad or not.

290/218 and Five Million Votes isn't close.

7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 And you support one of the chief architects of the bull you and your girl have been dealing with? That's not even bringing up the **** his running mate pulled on POC and other minorities out here in Cali during her time as DA. Both State level and in Frisco...

Sounds like he needs to reassess his own values, that's the same exact type of **** politicos and their sycophants on the left have been threatening to do to 2Aers... When they aren't saying they just want us dead. 😠

You don't understand. I don't support Biden but he was the only real winning option if we wanted Trump out. No, I supported Bernie Sanders but the DNC snubbed him harder than I even thought possible. TRUST me, I am aware of Biden's troubles and I am especially aware of Kamala's problems. Neither of them are good, but they're also much, much safer for us and allow us to not only see maybe an end to this pandemic our incumbent doesn't believe exists really, but also to get back into some positive climate stuff. The chief thing is, Biden being there instead of Trump means we aren't going to see our rights eroded at a rapid pace and it's an administration far more receptive to protest and pressure than the current that simply wants us dead and gone.

It's a strategy in picking who your opponent is, not, not who your friend is.

As for the guy needing to reassess his own values sure, but I don't need to help him. My help specifically would fall completely silent on a man like that's ears. I can't play nice with somebody like that. Unfortunately, that's Trump's voting base.

4 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

The chief thing is, Biden being there instead of Trump means we aren't going to see our rights eroded at a rapid pace and it's an administration far more receptive to protest and pressure than the current

Doubtful. Can't be much worse than the current though. Just be ready that if they win, Biden might not be in the chair all that long. Pelosi's already been laying the ground work for a mental health based removal, without specifying who she was looking at having removed. The assumption is Trump, but it could be used against Biden as well.

5 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

As for the guy needing to reassess his own values sure, but I don't need to help him.

Wasn't saying or implying that was on your shoulders at all.

15 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Doubtful. Can't be much worse than the current though. Just be ready that if they win, Biden might not be in the chair all that long. Pelosi's already been laying the ground work for a mental health based removal, without specifying who she was looking at having removed. The assumption is Trump, but it could be used against Biden as well.

Wasn't saying or implying that was on your shoulders at all.

Gods it would just fit Pelosi to a T to turn around on Biden wouldn't it?

26 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

Gods it would just fit Pelosi to a T to turn around on Biden wouldn't it?

Yah.