Not sure if this belongs here, or The Mandalorian thread, but here you go:
Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun’s Legion Off Topic But Very Much Star Wars Thread
Pew Pew
George Lucas wanted Darth Maul to be part of the SEQUELS.
This is from a new book, Star Wars Archives: Episode 1-3 The Prequels
Edited by Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun
3 hours ago, Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun said:
George Lucas wanted Darth Maul to be part of the SEQUELS.
This is from a new book, Star Wars Archives: Episode 1-3 The Prequels
that sounds so much better than the garbage that Disney put out for the sequel trilogy
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1 hour ago, Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun said:
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That sounds like it could've been fantastic (or not, prequels similarly have an interesting story in the Clone Wars but a poor execution in the movies). It would've given the Sequel Trilogy an even better entry into Legion as well, what with the different troop options you'd get from an underworld faction against the New Republic (instead of Empire and Rebellion 2.0).
I wasn't expecting to be disappointed over something that doesn't exist, but here we are.
Star Wars short stories once Canon and now Legend, originally featured in Star Wars Insider * are getting a printed collection starting March 23, 2021. This will include original art !!
*Impeiral Advisor Arem Heshvaun was lucky enough to be an editor and contributor to Star Wars Insider 😇
On 11/10/2020 at 6:57 AM, Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun said:
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This would have been so much better than what we actually got...
2 hours ago, KarlVonCarstein said:This would have been so much better than what we actually got...
Honestly, as cool as it sounds? I doubt it. The introduction of social media has changed how movies are received, especially Star Wars films which already had a long history of very vocal, if not outright angry, fans.
In all reality anything that was made after the prequels was going to face intense scrutiny.
JJ did a nice job of mitigating blow back by making a safe, if not somewhat boring, movie. Rian, whether people agree with his decisions or not, tried to make a film that subverted the Star Wars tropes and changed expectations. When the reception of the film backfired JJ was left to blend as much mass appeal into whatever story was left. Given the circumstances. I think Disney should have doubled down at EP.9 and told the original script as best as possible instead of trying to repair the split in the fanbase with JJ's script.
All said, I think knowing Lucas, and his nature to try new methods for filming his movie, the first film may not have been as safe as it needed to be and a similar split in the fandom would likely resulted, and therefore the same kneejerk mass appeal fix.
I do think that Star Wars has an interesting opportunity to explore a multiverse setting given the world between worlds and it's effect on time. A book, or comic detailing that story would be very well received in my opinion.
15 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:Honestly, as cool as it sounds? I doubt it. The introduction of social media has changed how movies are received, especially Star Wars films which already had a long history of very vocal, if not outright angry, fans.
In all reality anything that was made after the prequels was going to face intense scrutiny.
JJ did a nice job of mitigating blow back by making a safe, if not somewhat boring, movie. Rian, whether people agree with his decisions or not, tried to make a film that subverted the Star Wars tropes and changed expectations. When the reception of the film backfired JJ was left to blend as much mass appeal into whatever story was left. Given the circumstances. I think Disney should have doubled down at EP.9 and told the original script as best as possible instead of trying to repair the split in the fanbase with JJ's script.
All said, I think knowing Lucas, and his nature to try new methods for filming his movie, the first film may not have been as safe as it needed to be and a similar split in the fandom would likely resulted, and therefore the same kneejerk mass appeal fix.
I do think that Star Wars has an interesting opportunity to explore a multiverse setting given the world between worlds and it's effect on time. A book, or comic detailing that story would be very well received in my opinion.
from what i have seen and heard, peoples biggest issue with the sequels was that they pretty much ignored the canon that had come before and completely changed the personalities of the characters. Anakin is not mentioned by name at all and is only reffered to as grandfather, Luke ends episode 6 as a hopeful jedi knight that helps out everyone he meets out but we are supposed to just accept that he tries to kill his own nephew in his sleep? that is bonkers.
Then there is the poor plot of the movies, 7 is a copy of 4, 8 is a boring chase that makes no sense in multiple ways and makes the both death star battles entirely pointless and 9 tries to bring them back together to form a coherant story but struggles becasue there was no one in charge of the story that actually knew what they were talking about and there were too many threads to tie together not to mention making Anakins sacrifice for his son at the end of 6 meaningless by bringing back Palpatine.
1 hour ago, 5particus said:from what i have seen and heard, peoples biggest issue with the sequels was that they pretty much ignored the canon that had come before and completely changed the personalities of the characters. Anakin is not mentioned by name at all and is only reffered to as grandfather, Luke ends episode 6 as a hopeful jedi knight that helps out everyone he meets out but we are supposed to just accept that he tries to kill his own nephew in his sleep? that is bonkers.
Then there is the poor plot of the movies, 7 is a copy of 4, 8 is a boring chase that makes no sense in multiple ways and makes the both death star battles entirely pointless and 9 tries to bring them back together to form a coherant story but struggles becasue there was no one in charge of the story that actually knew what they were talking about and there were too many threads to tie together not to mention making Anakins sacrifice for his son at the end of 6 meaningless by bringing back Palpatine.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^This, can't elevate enough^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I know the point was to make money, but there's such a simpler way. Tell a story, any crappy story, but just make it original and quit trying to rewrite everything and do it worse.
1 hour ago, 5particus said:from what i have seen and heard, peoples biggest issue with the sequels was that they pretty much ignored the canon that had come before and completely changed the personalities of the characters. Anakin is not mentioned by name at all and is only reffered to as grandfather, Luke ends episode 6 as a hopeful jedi knight that helps out everyone he meets out but we are supposed to just accept that he tries to kill his own nephew in his sleep? that is bonkers.
I was trying to avoid this by glossing over details, but here we go.
They didn't ignore anything. 30 years had passed, and the characters from the OT had suffered trauma and grown. People change. That's a fact of life. I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago, in 30 years who knows what I'll have experienced and how it will have affected me. Point is,
no one is a static character
, less so people who are thrust into violent conflict.
Which leads to this huge misconception about Luke.
They didn't change him
. That scene in VIII is one of the
most
misconstrued moments of Luke's canon where people assume he just went into a hut and tried to kill his nephew. That's not what happened. They tell that story through 3 different points of view. Luke's half-truth, Ben's perspective, and Luke's full truth. In the last version we see that Luke was looking into Ben's future. Luke says, and I quote,
"But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become."
Then followed with "And for the briefest moment of
pure instinct
... I thought I could stop it."
This tells a very clear story with Luke. He saw the future, and reacted without thinking. This very much in-line with the established canon of Luke Skywalker.
More than this, in this moment, we also see Luke after failing to contain his reaction have a moment of introspection about what he has caused because of his failure. Not dissimilar to the moments from his past.
There's a lot of opinion out there about how VIII "ruined" Luke's character. It's absolutely wrong. Luke was
already a flawed character
, well documented in the OT. They humanized him through his very realistic reaction to tragedy. They added to the character, not took away from.
All of that said, it has nothing to do with:
17 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:knowing Lucas, and his nature to try new methods for filming his movie, the first film may not have been as safe as it needed to be and a similar split in the fandom would likely resulted, and therefore the same kneejerk mass appeal fix.
Which was my point.
I don't think Star Wars was going to avoid a big angry mob no matter what they released, and therefore was likely still going to end in some watered down mass appeal mess.
1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:I was trying to avoid this by glossing over details, but here we go.
They didn't ignore anything. 30 years had passed, and the characters from the OT had suffered trauma and grown. People change. That's a fact of life. I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago, in 30 years who knows what I'll have experienced and how it will have affected me. Point is, no one is a static character , less so people who are thrust into violent conflict.
Which leads to this huge misconception about Luke.
They didn't change him . That scene in VIII is one of the most misconstrued moments of Luke's canon where people assume he just went into a hut and tried to kill his nephew. That's not what happened. They tell that story through 3 different points of view. Luke's half-truth, Ben's perspective, and Luke's full truth. In the last version we see that Luke was looking into Ben's future. Luke says, and I quote,
"But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death... and the end of everything I love because of what he will become."
Then followed with "And for the briefest moment of pure instinct ... I thought I could stop it."
This tells a very clear story with Luke. He saw the future, and reacted without thinking. This very much in-line with the established canon of Luke Skywalker.More than this, in this moment, we also see Luke after failing to contain his reaction have a moment of introspection about what he has caused because of his failure. Not dissimilar to the moments from his past.
There's a lot of opinion out there about how VIII "ruined" Luke's character. It's absolutely wrong. Luke was already a flawed character , well documented in the OT. They humanized him through his very realistic reaction to tragedy. They added to the character, not took away from.
All of that said, it has nothing to do with:
Which was my point.
I don't think Star Wars was going to avoid a big angry mob no matter what they released, and therefore was likely still going to end in some watered down mass appeal mess.
OK, so do people change or not, you just said both, both cannot be true at the same time.
Luke in Episode 5 was just starting to learn how to use the force and was eager/anxious to help his friends, he then took at least a few hours to get his X-wing ready and speak to Obi-Wan and then who knows how long to fly from Dagobah to Bespin, that was not a react without thinking moment so your point is invalid unless you can come up with an actual example. His first instinct is to help not to kill in either case.
the main issue with the scenes about luke trying to kill Ben is that the "Real Truth" was not revealed until episode 9 when they were trying to fix all the problems that they made in 7 and 8 (mostly 8), people had already been given a bad impression of "the new Luke" and made their comments on that impression, retconning it to try and justify it is poor writing at best and a complete mischaracterization of the character at worst. You never get a second chance at a first impression.
So he saw that Ben was to become Kylo Ren and was going to destroy everything that Luke cared about and then decided ah screw it im not going to try and do anything to prevent it im just going to let it happen. the scene that you shared literally has luke see a bad future for his friends and family and he goes and does something about it, your trying to tell us that pretty much the exact same thing happens and he decides to give up and be a hermit and do nothing for years and all it takes is 30 years for a character to completely reverse their descision making process.
Lucas at least would have had a consistant vision of who the characters are, sometimes is seems like KK and the other leaders that made the ST never even watched the movies, they just read the basic plot points and went off that.
It may have divided the fan base but at least it would have been consistant with what came before as Lucas actually cared about the universe that he had created not just making money off the IP. That is the biggest issue with the ST.
We can only comment on what is there not on possibilities that didnt happen.
Edited by 5particus
added last line
5 minutes ago, 5particus said:OK, so do people change or not, you just said both, both cannot be true at the same time.
Luke in Episode 5 was just starting to learn how to use the force and was eager/anxious to help his friends, he then took at least a few hours to get his X-wing ready and speak to Obi-Wan and then who knows how long to fly from Dagobah to Bespin, that was not a react without thinking moment so your point is invalid unless you can come up with an actual example. His first instinct is to help not to kill in either case.
the main issue with the scenes about luke trying to kill Ben is that the "Real Truth" was not revealed until episode 9 when they were trying to fix all the problems that they made in 7 and 8 (mostly 8), people had already been given a bad impression of "the new Luke" and made their comments on that impression, retconning it to try and justify it is poor writing at best and a complete mischaracterization of the character at worst. You never get a second chance at a first impression.
So he saw that Ben was to become Kylo Ren and was going to destroy everything that Luke cared about and then decided ah screw it im not going to try and do anything to prevent it im just going to let it happen. the scene that you shared literally has luke see a bad future for his friends and family and he goes and does something about it, your trying to tell us that pretty much the exact same thing happens and he decides to give up and be a hermit and do nothing for years and all it takes is 30 years for a character to completely reverse their descision making process.
I'm not doing this here. Episode 8 derails and locks threads faster than any other subject on these forums. People are just too heated about it. If you'd like to keep the discussion going about TLJ, the ST or anything else likely to lock this thread, feel free to PM me. I definitely disagree but would be happy to explain why there. (Sorry
@Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun
, these threads always get derailed by me lol).
That's said, back on topic:
9 minutes ago, 5particus said:Lucas at least would have had a consistant vision of who the characters are, sometimes is seems like KK and the other leaders that made the ST never even watched the movies, they just read the basic plot points and went off that.
It may have divided the fan base but at least it would have been consistant with what came before as Lucas actually cared about the universe that he had created not just making money off the IP. That is the biggest issue with the ST.
I don't disagree with the first statement at all. Disney should have planned ahead. I don't see how a company with so much success could fail so thoroughly on planning a movie trilogy.
I kinda disagree on the second part. The PT is not consistent with the OT. From filming techniques, special effects, to sequencing/dialogue/choreography, they are very different in theme, style, and tone. The only real constancy between the PT and the OT were some of the characters. Ie: Palpatine, Yoda and Obiwan. and I think the reason we see that is the actors in these roles were delvoping their character to build to the OT version, as it would make sense sequentially. ( Listen to the interview with Ewan about how he learned the behaviors of Alec to take up the roles.)
I do agree, again, on Disney dropping the ball for planning.
18 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:I'm not doing this here. Episode 8 derails and locks threads faster than any other subject on these forums. People are just too heated about it. If you'd like to keep the discussion going about TLJ, the ST or anything else likely to lock this thread, feel free to PM me. I definitely disagree but would be happy to explain why there. (Sorry @Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun , these threads always get derailed by me lol).
That's said, back on topic:
I don't disagree with the first statement at all. Disney should have planned ahead. I don't see how a company with so much success could fail so thoroughly on planning a movie trilogy.
I kinda disagree on the second part. The PT is not consistent with the OT. From filming techniques, special effects, to sequencing/dialogue/choreography, they are very different in theme, style, and tone. The only real constancy between the PT and the OT were some of the characters. Ie: Palpatine, Yoda and Obiwan. and I think the reason we see that is the actors in these roles were delvoping their character to build to the OT version, as it would make sense sequentially. ( Listen to the interview with Ewan about how he learned the behaviors of Alec to take up the roles.)
I do agree, again, on Disney dropping the ball for planning.
It's the off topic thread, everything Star Wars is on topic here including the sequels and the arcs of established characters therein, so don't "hit & run" by dropping an arguable opinion and then trying to walk away when people want to argue it.
The fact is it's not outside the bounds of possibility that a person like OT Luke could devolve into a person like ST Luke. People change all the time, and not always for the better, they backslide into old behaviours they thought they'd escaped and they can easily take the wrong lessons from their experiences. The reason a lot of people take issue with it happening in this specific instance is we're talking about Star Wars which is fundamentally a fairy tale/myth, and so the hero of the tale repeating all his old mistakes, and all the mistakes of his mentors, then becoming a bitter old recluse isn't satisfying in that kind of story . Luke goes on his Hero's Journey in the OT and doing so changes him, emphasizing his better qualities and carving off his bad ones. We see him develop first from a selfish farmboy who seeks adventure to gratify his own need for some excitement to someone willing to risk his life first for comrades and friends and then ultimately for a cause. That development then leads him into trouble since he's still not learned to temper courage with caution, and he pays the physical and emotional price for that in the climax of ESB. By RotJ we're shown how he's overcome that flaw in his creation of a multi-layered plan to rescue Han from Jabba, but he's still driven by his sense of destiny, and it's only when he learns to let go of his ego and do what's right that he truly "wins" and defeats the Emperor, not by destroying him but by refusing to become the person the Emperor wants him to be, and his achievement of that little piece of wisdom is rewarded with the redemption of his father.
The version of Luke in the sequels forgets those lessons, forgets the person they made him into, and responds to his failures in exactly the way his original incarnation as a petulant whiny farmboy would have - by going off and sulking.
Maybe that's "realistic", but it's not what I want to see in my Plucky Rebels & Space Wizards vs Space Authoritarians & Evil Sorcerors sword & planet space fantasy, at least not with established characters.
On 11/14/2020 at 6:52 AM, Yodhrin said:It's the off topic thread, everything Star Wars is on topic here including the sequels and the arcs of established characters therein, so don't "hit & run" by dropping an arguable opinion and then trying to walk away when people want to argue it.
It is off-topic, you are correct, however I have been a part of TLJ discussions on the forum since the movie released and I know they can end up locking threads. People can get very heated on the subject. It's not a hit and run, I said I'd happily continue the conversation in PM, where a heated argument wouldn't cause a thread to get locked. I've already caused one of Imperial advisor's threads to be locked in the past (thus the Mandalorian in a "civilized" age thread), I'm not going to actively engage in a discussion or argument that could lead to another (especially over the same old TLJ issues, which now that the saga is complete, has very little relevance to anyone).
That said, and to put an end to this discussion on here:
On 11/14/2020 at 6:52 AM, Yodhrin said:The fact is it's not outside the bounds of possibility that a person like OT Luke could devolve into a person like ST Luke. People change all the time, and not always for the better, they backslide into old behaviours they thought they'd escaped and they can easily take the wrong lessons from their experiences. The reason a lot of people take issue with it happening in this specific instance is we're talking about Star Wars which is fundamentally a fairy tale/myth, and so the hero of the tale repeating all his old mistakes, and all the mistakes of his mentors, then becoming a bitter old recluse isn't satisfying in that kind of story . Luke goes on his Hero's Journey in the OT and doing so changes him, emphasizing his better qualities and carving off his bad ones. We see him develop first from a selfish farmboy who seeks adventure to gratify his own need for some excitement to someone willing to risk his life first for comrades and friends and then ultimately for a cause. That development then leads him into trouble since he's still not learned to temper courage with caution, and he pays the physical and emotional price for that in the climax of ESB. By RotJ we're shown how he's overcome that flaw in his creation of a multi-layered plan to rescue Han from Jabba, but he's still driven by his sense of destiny, and it's only when he learns to let go of his ego and do what's right that he truly "wins" and defeats the Emperor, not by destroying him but by refusing to become the person the Emperor wants him to be, and his achievement of that little piece of wisdom is rewarded with the redemption of his father.
The version of Luke in the sequels forgets those lessons, forgets the person they made him into, and responds to his failures in exactly the way his original incarnation as a petulant whiny farmboy would have - by going off and sulking.
Maybe that's "realistic", but it's not what I want to see in my Plucky Rebels & Space Wizards vs Space Authoritarians & Evil Sorcerors sword & planet space fantasy, at least not with established characters.
I can definitely sympathize with that. You explain it very well.
1 hour ago, Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun said:
"Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force."
Yoda talking to Anakin
23 hours ago, Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun said:
TIE Mangler