2 minutes ago, RuusMarev said:If the weave adds benefits I don't currently have, I would like to add it.
The weave allows you to ignore Pierce and Breach, but with player consent I'd like to specify it as Pierce and 1 point of Breach.
It takes 2 HP.
1 hour ago, RuusMarev said:I believe their armor is full beskar as is, yes.
I'll be good for the shoring up.. or we can handle the details after this mission ends... (busy at work, so I've been making notes on a word doc so I can catch up)
If the weave adds benefits I don't currently have, I would like to add it.
@Tramp Graphics I saw the mention of HP-less attachments from Cypher.. I'll have to get you to mention some of those since I don't have that book yet.
There are two Armor attachments and several Gear attachments (which can also be attached to weapons and armor) that require no HP. In fact none of the Gear attachments take up HP. The full list of armor attachments are as follows:
The Gear attachments all require no HP. These include:
1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:The weave allows you to ignore Pierce and Breach, but with player consent I'd like to specify it as Pierce and 1 point of Breach.
It takes 2 HP.
@P-47 Thunderbolt is correct there. The Cortosis Weave attachment (EotE page 194, and AoR page 205), which also includes metals such as Beskar and Phryyk (sp?) grants the armor the Cortosis quality, which makes any armor with this quality immune to Pierce and Breach, and weapons with the quality immune to Sunder. The Cortosis quality can be found on page 169 of AoR, page 155 of EotE, and page 162 of F&D.
Edited by Tramp Graphics*Phrik
@Tramp Graphics, @RuusMarev, are you on board with changing it to 1 point of Breach? I think that crystals designed to have higher Breach ratings and weapons like Shaped Thermal Grenades (Breach 2) should still be able to penetrate Cortosis Weave armor. This isn't something I'd necessarily use against you or abuse, I just think it makes more sense.
6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:
@P-47 Thunderbolt is correct there. The Cortosis Weave attachment (EotE page 194, and AoR page 205), which also includes metals such as Beskar and Phryyk (sp?) grants the armor the Cortosis quality, which makes any armor with this quality immune to Pierce and Breach, and weapons with the quality immune to Sunder. The Cortosis quality can be found on page 169 of AoR, page 155 of EotE, and page 162 of F&D.
which would be helpful if ventress or the togruta comes after us 
23 minutes ago, RuusMarev said:which would be helpful if ventress or the togruta comes after us
Exactly. FYI, I updated my last post.
Just now, Tramp Graphics said:Exactly. FYI, I updated my last post.
Ah yes, Sunder. Thanks for reminding me.
26 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:*Phrik
@Tramp Graphics, @RuusMarev, are you on board with changing it to 1 point of Breach? I think that crystals designed to have higher Breach ratings and weapons like Shaped Thermal Grenades (Breach 2) should still be able to penetrate Cortosis Weave armor. This isn't something I'd necessarily use against you or abuse, I just think it makes more sense.
Not particularly. I’d prefer to leave it as per RAW. Beskar in particular has been shown in canon and Legends to be very effective against lightsabers, even more so than Cortosis is. I would not change that. I say leave well enough alone.
Just now, Tramp Graphics said:Not particularly. I’d prefer to leave it as per RAW. Beskar in particular has been shown in canon and Legends to be very effective against lightsabers, even more so than Cortosis is. I would not change that. I say leave well enough alone.
I'm not challenging you exactly, but can you give a citation/example for that?
And it would still be very effective against lightsabers, except the rare ones with high Breach.
24 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:I'm not challenging you exactly, but can you give a citation/example for that?
And it would still be very effective against lightsabers, except the rare ones with high Breach.
Sure can. I can give you a few. The first one is from Legends, and is actually the first appearance of Mandalorian Iron. It’s from Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith. Exar Kun travelled to Dxun to break into the tomb of Frreedon Nadd only to find it sealed with walls and doors made from Mandalorian Iron. His lightsaber could barely scratch them. It took several hours to eventually cut through the walls. To quote Kun himself: “By the Force! I thought a lightsaber could cut through anything. The walls are barely scratched. The only thing that can resist a lightsaber is…Mandalorian iron!” To quote the Wookieepedia page:
QuoteMandalorians furnished starships and constructed weapons with beskar,[7]while the Jedi Master Arca Jeth utilized a heavy slab of Mandalorian iron to seal the tomb of the deceased Sith LordFreedon Nadd on Dxun. The beskar door proved an impediment for the Dark JediExar Kun, who was shocked to find that his lightsaber was rebuffed by the Mandalorian iron, and only gained access to the blocked tomb with repeated strikes of his saber at its highest power output.[14]
A single strike from a lightsaber could not penetrate the Beskar walls. It took multiple repeated strikes at the weapon’s highest setting to finally penetrate them. In current canon, we see blaster bolts bounce off Din Djarin’s Beskar armor without a scratch, and no effect. That’s how tough real Beskar is. You cannot Breach Beskar. It takes real effort to cut through it. That’s why I say leave it alone. If anything, the Cortosis quality is weak compared to the lore, but I chalk that up to game balance.
Edited by Tramp Graphics7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:A single strike from a lightsaber could not penetrate the Beskar walls. It took multiple repeated strikes at the weapon’s highest setting to finally penetrate them. In current canon, we see blaster bolts bounce off Din Djarin’s Beskar armor without a scratch, and no effect. That’s how tough real Beskar is. You cannot Breach Beskar. It takes real effort to cut through it. That’s why I say leave it alone. If anything, the Cortosis quality is weak compared to the lore, but I chalk that up to game balance.
The examples you give have more to do with "it can block lightsabers" which I already agree with than "it can block lightsabers that are abnormally capable of breaching things, and also other sorts of weapons." It also probably wasn't even a lightsaber that would have a high Breach rating.
I don't like it and don't think it makes sense. Especially when lined up against weapons like the T-7 Ion Disruptor (Breach 2), Shaped Thermal Grenade (Breach 2), Anti-Vehicle Mine (Breach 4), or Anti-Vehicle Flechette Launcher (Breach 2). The T-7 and AV-mine in particular given the nature of the first's attack and the extremely high Breach (only 25 damage) of the second. As written, Cade could step on an AV-mine and walk away.
It would still be immune to Sunder and to most lightsabers. It would be rare to come across a lightsaber that can do much against it.
7 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:The examples you give have more to do with "it can block lightsabers" which I already agree with than "it can block lightsabers that are abnormally capable of breaching things, and also other sorts of weapons." It also probably wasn't even a lightsaber that would have a high Breach rating.
I don't like it and don't think it makes sense. Especially when lined up against weapons like the T-7 Ion Disruptor (Breach 2), Shaped Thermal Grenade (Breach 2), Anti-Vehicle Mine (Breach 4), or Anti-Vehicle Flechette Launcher (Breach 2). The T-7 and AV-mine in particular given the nature of the first's attack and the extremely high Breach (only 25 damage) of the second. As written, Cade could step on an AV-mine and walk away.
It would still be immune to Sunder and to most lightsabers. It would be rare to come across a lightsaber that can do much against it.
Yes, he could. That’s how durable Beskar is in canon and in Legends. There’s a reason why the Empire went to so much trouble to resurrect the “Duchess” weapon to use against the Mandalorians. The Empire feared the Beskar armor. There’s a reason why Beskar is one of the most valuable metals in the galaxy. It is virtually indestructible. To quote the canon page:
QuoteBeskar, also known as Mandalorian steel, was an alloy used in Mandalorian armor, notable for its high tolerance to extreme forms of damage. The metal was durable enough to withstand a direct blaster shot and could repel lightsaber strikes. A superweaponcreated by the Mandalorian Sabine Wrenand used by the Galactic Empire, called the Arc Pulse Generator, was capable of super-heating the metal to the point that it would burn to a crisp everything it was protecting, as in the case of Mandalorian warriors encased within their beskar armor. However, Wren was able to destroy her weapon during the Mandalorian Civil War.
Note the first sentence: Beskar was a metal known for its high tolerance for taking extreme forms of damage; not just high amounts, but even the most extreme forms of damage. That’s why, Arca Jeth built Nadd’s tomb from Beskar. It wasn’t simply to make it impervious to Lightsabers. It was to make it unbreachable.
2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:Yes, he could.
No he couldn't.* That is an absurd statement. An AV mine is a lot of boom. Beskar isn't going to protect you from that. It will be significantly less effective against anything with area of effect damage as it does not cover every part of his body. The T-7 likewise would largely ignore that. It doesn't exactly go through armor, it just ignores the armor.
Let's compromise: Cortosis Weave makes it immune to all Breach from lightsabers but only 1 point of Breach from other sources.
*Well, shouldn't. He's got a high enough WT that before too long (assuming he starts off with no wounds) he would be able to, but barely. Practically, absolutely not. His armor would do a little bit (ignoring 1 point of Breach), but not enough.
10 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:No he couldn't.* That is an absurd statement. An AV mine is a lot of boom. Beskar isn't going to protect you from that. It will be significantly less effective against anything with area of effect damage as it does not cover every part of his body. The T-7 likewise would largely ignore that. It doesn't exactly go through armor, it just ignores the armor.
Let's compromise: Cortosis Weave makes it immune to all Breach from lightsabers but only 1 point of Breach from other sources.
*Well, shouldn't. He's got a high enough WT that before too long (assuming he starts off with no wounds) he would be able to, but barely. Practically, absolutely not. His armor would do a little bit (ignoring 1 point of Breach), but not enough.
I disagree. That’s because ignoring Breach does not mean ignoring damage. If the weapon’s Base Damage is high enough to begin with, it can still deal significant damage to someone wearing full Beskar’gam made from real Beskar. A shaped Thermal grenade’s Breach capability does not simply come from its extreme damage. It’s a shaped charge. That means it concentrates that damage into a relatively small area. Not only that, but it has a Base Damage of 20. No amount of armor is going to provide that much Soak protection. The same with the T-7. That thing starts at 12 damage. Even with full immunity to Breach, there target is still likely to be seriously hurt. the AV mine has a Base Damage of 25. Not even the toughest Mandalorian, with a Brawn of 6, The full Armor Master talent tree, multiple ranks of Enduring, a and full suit of proper Beskar'gam with Superior, and the Cortosis Weave attachment (Beskar), is going to have nearly enough Soak to take that sheer amount of damage directly. The Breach immunity Beskar provides won’t stop all of that damage. It only means that Soak applies normally. You get hit with a vehicle scale weapon, you still take that huge amount of damage. The damage simply doesn’t ignore the armor’s Soak, but no personal armor is going to provide a Soak value of 20 +.
Cade has a WT of 24 and a Soak of 7. That's already enough to tank an AV-mine if he can ignore all 4 points of Breach.
With a Soak of 7, you take maybe 7 wounds from a T-7, a weapon designed to completely ignore armor.
I'm not talking about being able to Soak the damage. I'm talking about being able to tank the damage. A shaped thermal charge is nasty and will seriously mess you up, beskar or no. Show me a Mandalorian taking a hit from a shaped thermal charge or anti-vehicle mine, and then I'll reconsider.
My point isn't that the soak prevents them from taking any damage, but that it shouldn't help at all.
You want to take the compromise? Ruus has already agreed to the full thing.
Edited by P-47 ThunderboltMy mental picture is the two of us standing over a table arguing with Ruus sitting back in his chair going, "But I don't want to step on an AV-mine..."
33 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:Cade has a WT of 24 and a Soak of 7. That's already enough to tank an AV-mine if he can ignore all 4 points of Breach.
With a Soak of 7, you take maybe 7 wounds from a T-7, a weapon designed to completely ignore armor.
I'm not talking about being able to Soak the damage. I'm talking about being able to tank the damage. A shaped thermal charge is nasty and will seriously mess you up, beskar or no. Show me a Mandalorian taking a hit from a shaped thermal charge or anti-vehicle mine, and then I'll reconsider.
My point isn't that the soak prevents them from taking any damage, but that it shouldn't help at all.
Not really, no. It doesn’t. Being able to “tank” damage means to be able to completely shrug it off, and take almost no appreciable damage from any given attack, regardless of how powerful the attack. With a total Soak of 7, Cade would be left being able to take no more than 5 Wounds left available before hitting, if not exceeding, his WT. (a successful attack will always deal at least one more point of damage above the base). That means he’ll take no less than 19 points of damage. From a single attack. That’s seriously damaged. One more good hit and he’s down. I wouldn’t call that “tanking” the attack. I call that getting my @$$ handed to me and barely surviving. The 7 points of Soak really doesn’t help that much. What really saves him is his high WT. Now put Ge’tal in that same situation and even with full Breach immunity, she’s down from that single mine attack. This is because, with a WT of only 18 she doesn’t have nearly a high enough Wound Threshold. To withstand that minimum damage from said attack. One hit from an AV mine will exceed her WT, even after applying Soak!
When you have a weapon that destructive, a few points of Soak don’t make that much difference. But it might be the difference between life and death. Regardless, you’re not walking away unscathed. You will walk away seriously hurt, if you walk away at all.
So yes, the Soak should apply, yes, Beskar should maintain full Breach immunity. That’s what is special about Beskar. It’s why it is also valued in starship construction for ship armor. It’s why it was used for Freedon Nadd’s tomb. It wasn’t to prevent lightsabers from breaching it. It was to prevent heavy weapons, starship grade weapons, and high explosives from penetrating it. It was to prevent the very weapons you want to be capable of negating the Cortosis quality from damaging the structure.
Edited by Tramp GraphicsIn a structure or ship, it probably would ignore all Breach. It provides complete coverage and is thicker. In armor, it does not provide complete coverage.
As for "tanking" you and I have different definitions. For me, "tanking" means taking a licking and keepin' on ticking.
Besides, exceeding WT isn't a killshot, it just incapacitates and inflicts a crit. If you aren't incapacitated (or seriously critically injured) you aren't hurt that badly (mechanically). It isn't "barely surviving."
The armor not providing complete coverage is a big deal here. It will protect from pretty much all direct attacks and from lightsabers, but it won't protect as well against AOE weapons. Particularly not against AOE weapons intended to not care about armor like the T-7.
This conversation has only reinforced my opinion.
This needs to end, so I'm calling it here and throwing it to @RuusMarev, who gets the final word on the topic:
I'll preface this with the admission that I did not read all of the argument/debate..
That being said..
In real world, if someone gets hit by an AV shape charge mine while wearing the strongest analog of beskar'gam, he probably would still suffer from breach and pierce from the parts that aren't covered by armor. Not to mention any Blast effects turning soft tissue to jelly. (which I believe is what P-47 is trying to represent with his suggested modifier.)
If I may, I'd like to suggest an asterisk to ignore Pierce and Breach , and go with the RAW in relation to personal non- AOE weapons. Rifles, lightsabers, melee weapons. This gives the thematic/narrative idea of the wearer getting the plates in the way of the attack.
Personnel mines allow some Pierce and Breach, to reflect getting hit in fabric..
Any Anti-vehicle weapon, within reason.. would be the same..
I am with Tramp with exploiting any advantage I can get away with, in good humor. (Like making off with that Lightsaber or acquiring the Liberator all while the NPC's do their best to prevent it. )
I also see that P-47 is trying to make our game experience as enjoyable and challenging as possible through balancing or nerfing within reason. If Cade could walk over his opponents as an unstoppable death machine , that game would be alot duller.. Him fighting the Thorned Circle leader and winning just as he was about to loose.. -it took a DP flip to keep Cade conscious enough to finish it was Far more enjoyable..
While I am no expert in all the details of the rules, I am aware that P-47 has established that we were playing with modified rules in regards to several aspects of game play to either "fix" complicated rules to more simple, or an attempt to enhance player experience.
As a further compromise, I would like to ask Tramp to agree to some of what P-47 (or I) proposes at least in the interim. Let's see how these modified rules regarding cortosis work.. We can always reassess
6 minutes ago, RuusMarev said:If I may, I'd like to suggest an asterisk to ignore Pierce and Breach , and go with the RAW in relation to personal non- AOE weapons. Rifles, lightsabers, melee weapons. This gives the thematic/narrative idea of the wearer getting the plates in the way of the attack.
Personnel mines allow some Pierce and Breach, to reflect getting hit in fabric..
That's a good compromise.
The "some" Pierce may be a bit more difficult to implement than just saying it ignores all Pierce. Aside from clarifying that, I agree to your suggestion.
10 minutes ago, RuusMarev said:I also see that P-47 is trying to make our game experience as enjoyable and challenging as possible through balancing or nerfing within reason. If Cade could walk over his opponents as an unstoppable death machine , that game would be alot duller.. Him fighting the Thorned Circle leader and winning just as he was about to loose.. -it took a DP flip to keep Cade conscious enough to finish it was Far more enjoyable..
That was an awesome fight.
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
@Tramp Graphics, if we are agreed, let's move on.
You can go ahead and narrate the trip to the armorer. Please include information about your surroundings, with information about the place.
Basically, the nature of the spaceport/city, where the armorer is (i.e. in the middle of town, off in the woods, etc.) what the population is like, etc.
Alternatively, if you give me that information here I can work on filling it out myself, narrating or RPing you into place.
10 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:@Tramp Graphics, if we are agreed, let's move on.
You can go ahead and narrate the trip to the armorer. Please include information about your surroundings, with information about the place.
Basically, the nature of the spaceport/city, where the armorer is (i.e. in the middle of town, off in the woods, etc.) what the population is like, etc.
Alternatively, if you give me that information here I can work on filling it out myself, narrating or RPing you into place.
I don’t agee, but let’s move on anyway. 😝
As for Ordo, there really isn’t much information on the world. According to Legends, it’s mostly desert with some vegetation around the equator, and according to Canon, it’s home to the Archaic Arsenal, first which Dryden Vos stole the Rally Master Lance. I don’t own any of the original sources, so what’s in Wookiepedia is all I know.
Just now, Tramp Graphics said:I don’t agee, but let’s move on anyway. 😝
Fair enough!
2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:As for Ordo, there really isn’t much information on the world. According to Legends, it’s mostly desert with some vegetation around the equator, and according to Canon, it’s home to the Archaic Arsenal, first which Dryden Vos stole the Rally Master Lance. I don’t own any of the original sources, so what’s in Wookiepedia is all I know.
So where on the planet is this location? Is this particular location home to Buurenaar, or a variety of clans? This gives you a lot of freedom to make things up for the clan and your surroundings.
1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:Fair enough!
So where on the planet is this location? Is this particular location home to Buurenaar, or a variety of clans? This gives you a lot of freedom to make things up for the clan and your surroundings.
That’s among the things I don’t know. I’d need the original sources mentioned by the Wookieepedia pages to know the location of known landmarks. If I were to hazard a guess, though, most of the population centers would likely be closer to the equator, where What vegetation there is on the planet (and, likely, where most of the water is) is located. That’s just a guess, though.
Just now, Tramp Graphics said:That’s among the things I don’t know. I’d need the original sources mentioned by the Wookieepedia pages to know the location of known landmarks. If I were to hazard a guess, though, most of the population centers would likely be closer to the equator, where What vegetation there is on the planet (and, likely, where most of the water is) is located. That’s just a guess, though.
I'm saying make it up.