I'm being weird about this because all I heard from you guys was "Supernatural Vader is unstoppable!"

Then the event came around and I was excited to see you guys play some Supernatural Vader and show me what I was missing.

But nobody brought him.

And then, two days later, someone says something about Wedge and it's back to "Supernatural Vader is unstoppable! Here's my TED Talk."

It's just... disappointing? If all your data and strategy has any weight, why didn't you follow up on it? If you won't listen to yourselves, why should anyone else?

4 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

I'm being weird about this because all I heard from you guys was "Supernatural Vader is unstoppable!"

Then the event came around and I was excited to see you guys play some Supernatural Vader and show me what I was missing.

But nobody brought him.

And then, two days later, someone says something about Wedge and it's back to "Supernatural Vader is unstoppable! Here's my TED Talk."

It's just... disappointing? If all your data and strategy has any weight, why didn't you follow up on it? If you won't listen to yourselves, why should anyone else?

They choose to go with a different list.

We think many things are good, but we don't know which all are actually good; and even of the ones that are actually good, which are relatively better. Some are meta dependent, some are meta resilient. And, we had no idea what the meta even is/was. (Still don't - we'll make fuzzy projections, but one tournament does not a meta make).

People made choices based on projections, and preferences on what they wanted to play. It doesn't mean we think vader is bad (he's pretty good), but it also doesn't mean we think he's the end-all of good ships (Like, I, personally, am not a big vader fan in terms of wanting to play him, but think he's still quite good).

The one thing we can agree on, however, is wedge is not some weird super monster that scares all ships below him (im not scrolling to see if you made that argument, but odds are, you didn't).

2 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

I'm being weird about this because all I heard from you guys was "Supernatural Vader is unstoppable!"

Then the event came around and I was excited to see you guys play some Supernatural Vader and show me what I was missing.

But nobody brought him.

And then, two days later, someone says something about Wedge and it's back to "Supernatural Vader is unstoppable! Here's my TED Talk."

It's just... disappointing? If all your data and strategy has any weight, why didn't you follow up on it? If you won't listen to yourselves, why should anyone else?

I didn't bring supernatural Vader because coruscant has different rules than a standard event which (I wrongly thought) would make him worse than he broadly is. The fact that he's as good as he is when you're also forced to bring ruthless and your opponents get Leia for free is frankly alarming.

Also, I played supernatural Luke, which is almost identical to supernatural Vader.

I'm... Still not really sure what you're upset or disappointed about. We made a probably wrong meta call because of weird extenuating circumstances around list building? Why should anyone listen to us? I don't remember advertising anyone should listen to us.

Gotta say, this thread is getting pretty entertaining once again

Keep it going boys!

Actually, I also usually don't respond to things that are just attempts to be provocative or insulting to try to have discourse be more productive, but in this case I'll pass. If you're insulting me for giving a detailed explanation with of why Vader isn't necessarily scared of Wedge by calling it a TED talk because it's really cool on the internet to be apathetic and uncaring, cool. Pictures can help things be clear for people that are asking legitimate questions and help give clarity.

7 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Also, I played supernatural Luke, which is almost identical to supernatural Vader.

He's one less initiative! It's super different!

You could argue you liked super vader so much you chose the faction that let you fly two of him.

Just now, jagsba said:

He's one less initiative! It's super different!

You could argue you liked super vader so much you chose the faction that let you fly two of him.

Honestly? That was a factor.

1 minute ago, jagsba said:

He's one less initiative! It's super different!

You could argue you liked super vader so much you chose the faction that let you fly two of him.

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

Honestly? That was a factor.

I mean, Empire has a second Vader, you just can't fit ruthless with Vader + Grand Inquisitor.

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

I mean, Empire has a second Vader, you just can't fit ruthless with Vader + Grand Inquisitor.

no u.

15 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I mean, Empire has a second Vader, you just can't fit ruthless with Vader + Grand Inquisitor.

E. Z. https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v5!s!173:74,113,-1,105:;169:74,113,-1:;227:128,-1:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

My experience with GI is that he's super fun and gets all the tokens, but he has a **** of a time doing damage now that his ability is force locked.

My experience with Sabine is thats she's super fun and gets all the tokens, and does a ton of damage.

Just now, jagsba said:

E. Z. https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v5!s!173:74,113,-1,105:;169:74,113,-1:;227:128,-1:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

My experience with GI is that he's super fun and gets all the tokens, but he has a **** of a time doing damage now that his ability is force locked.

My experience with Sabine is thats he's super fun and gets all the tokens, and does a ton of damage.

I uhh

5 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I mean, Empire has a second Vader, you just can't fit ruthless with Vader + Grand Inquisitor.

You're technically correct, but I'm sticking to my previous argument, haha. I love GI though - just need to actually be at range 1 of whatever you're attacking, which is less difficult than it sounds with pre maneuver boosts. That being said, Vader + GI might be good, but that TIE is dragging them down

2 minutes ago, jagsba said:

E. Z. https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v5!s!173:74,113,-1,105:;169:74,113,-1:;227:128,-1:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

My experience with GI is that he's super fun and gets all the tokens, but he has a **** of a time doing damage now that his ability is force locked.

My experience with Sabine is thats he's super fun and gets all the tokens, and does a ton of damage.

Not wanting to be a grammar ahole, but you have clearly not seen Rebels.

Sabine ................................ he??

7 minutes ago, baranidlo said:

Not wanting to be a grammar ahole, but you have clearly not seen Rebels.

Sabine ................................ he??

my fault for being lazy and copy pasting.

9 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I uhh

You're technically correct, but I'm sticking to my previous argument, haha. I love GI though - just need to actually be at range 1 of whatever you're attacking, which is less difficult than it sounds with pre maneuver boosts. That being said, Vader + GI might be good, but that TIE is dragging them down

list was facetious, didn't have a punisher so no way it can be good.

I think GI has potential, Sabine just seems easier. And you end up strapped for points. Maybe Vader, GI and a dream is the right answer?

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

This is a ridiculous assertion to make. Plenty of people manage to get 12+ quality games a month by a large margin, and yet I still managed to be only mediocre at Coruscant.

There are so many factors involved in an individual player's performance, nation of origin isn't particularly meaningful.

Let's look at the top 8: it was 4 European players playing against 4 American players, if I remember correctly. Let's assume all matchups are identical and the better player wins 75% of the time. Even if we assume the European players was straight better every game, there'd still only be a 31% chance all four Europeans made it through.

There's just so many factors that matter more than country of origin. I do dramatically better at tournaments that start after 10 or 11 AM instead of 9. Even something as stupid as that is dramatically more important than my country of origin.

Oh but I totally agree with you that nationality has nothing to do with performance, I was speaking of place or meta where someone get their usual play time and that's definitely matter.

Of course it's not the only thing that matters and it's not even the most important one, but dismissing it as a non-factor doesn't make much sense either.

If I get to play every given Sundays with people who had made the cut in every SoS they went to I expect to have a better training than playing with people who don't have the same experience, at least on average. And in the UK there's a crazy amount of players

Is that so weird?

You guys have always taken pride on having an analytical approach, I started the discussion on those premises. Obviously we have small sample size, I wanted only to discuss why, with only 1/3 of the players coming from overseas, so many were in the cut.

We already had the same discussion after worlds and back then I recalled you agreed that Europeans player density, UK in particular, was a factor.

As I said before, you (it's a more broader "you" than you Brunas, I'm mostly referring to @Tlfj200) are way to eager to jump the gun without even reading what people actually writes, as an example, the Vader discussion in the previous page, how did we go from these:

Quote

In my experience so far, Wedge is far better than it seemed at first glance: sure he dies like every non Luke Xs, but his ability is nuts in 2.0 and keep in check Whisper

I feel like Wedge's role in 2.0 is to take care of the highest priority threat. He's like a pseudo Biggs that hits back because ignoring him is probably a bad idea. I know that there were memes about Wedge being good, but I actually think that he is good if you understand how to use him. Supernatural Vader he ain't, but he strikes fear into Vader.

to this?

Quote

The one thing we can agree on, however, is wedge is not some weird super monster that scares all ships below him (im not scrolling to see if you made that argument, but odds are, you didn't).

No one was making such a case.

Like the whole EU vs NA wasn't a big deal either: it was just a funny nitpicking from the first 2.0 event. But then answers became those:

Quote

Since we're all just going to use results-based logic, and don't seem to be actually interested in the underlying answers:

Did you see Paul Heaver didn't even make day 2? What a washed-up has-been, amirite? 

Once it degenerates on salty remarks, it's pretty much over.

I really liked your "TED talk" (altough I don't agree on some of your conclusions) and already praised many times your worlds preps, that's why I keep posting here. But ffs, read what people write before going rampage on something no one actually said (Like Wedge being GOAT)

4 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Oh but I totally agree with you that nationality has nothing to do with performance, I was speaking of place or meta where someone get their usual play time and that's definitely matter.

Of course it's not the only thing that matters and it's not even the most important one, but dismissing it as a non-factor doesn't make much sense either.

If I get to play every given Sundays with people who had made the cut in every SoS they went to I expect to have a better training than playing with people who don't have the same experience, at least on average. And in the UK there's a crazy amount of players

Is that so weird?

Yep, UK is a special place for X-Wing, even compared to the rest of the Europe.

Except maybe for Poland.

Those guys are crazy gamers, too..

EDIT: No wonder that the Team Championships in Europe are always won be either of these 2..

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

it was 4 European players playing against 4 American players, if I remember correctly.

3 Americans and 1 Canadian!

Your points are bang on though.

3 minutes ago, evcameron said:

3 Americans and 1 Canadian!

Your points are bang on though.

Canadian national champ was American, so Canadian's have been annexed until they actually win their own championship.

2 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

No one was making such a case.

Actually, they were. You took the literally beginning, and end.

Also, the joke was precisely that no one agrees on wedge (well, we on the podcast do). We have said that we think wedge is "good enough", but not relatively the correct answer. And further, that people will make the cut/win with wedge, precisely because he's good enough.

As for the rest of it: "K."

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

I'm... Still not really sure what you're upset or disappointed about.

I wanted to watch you run away with Vader for 75 minutes and instead I had to watch you do math!

It's all about me! Why don't you care about the fans, @Brunas? Whyyyyy?

36 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

...you (it's a more broader "you" than you Brunas, I'm mostly referring to @Tlfj200) ...

I really liked your "TED talk" (altough I don't agree on some of your conclusions) and already praised many times your worlds preps, that's why I keep posting here. But ffs, read what people write before going rampage on something no one actually said (Like Wedge being GOAT)

Oh, I'll stay out of it then.

Thanks though, glad it was interesting. Clearly you must agree with me on everything, it's the rational choice though.

2 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

I wanted to watch you run away with Vader for 75 minutes and instead I had to watch you do math!

It's all about me! Why don't you care about the fans, @Brunas? Whyyyyy?

CHASE ME

H

A

S

E

M

E

Having to convince Tyler he beat me because of how points work was hilarious - would recommend.

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

If you're insulting me for giving a detailed explanation with of why Vader isn't necessarily scared of Wedge by calling it a TED talk

Didn't mean to be insulting. It just seemed... odd... to be doubling down on a bet you didn't make, so I were confused.

5 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Oh, I'll stay out of it then.

Thanks though, glad it was interesting. Clearly you must agree with me on everything, it's the rational choice though.

I appreciated it. It did reinforce my thoughts that Wedge is more of a support piece in a squad, but seeing everywhere Vader could go was cool.

3 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

Didn't mean to be insulting. It just seemed... odd... to be doubling down on a bet you didn't make, so I were confused.

You probably weren't and I'm reading things that aren't there, sorry. Long week for me

6 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

Didn't mean to be insulting. It just seemed... odd... to be doubling down on a bet you didn't make, so I were confused.

I would have doubled down on ghost fenn/ 100pt miranda. Doesn't mean I want to play them.