I would like to see some X-wing title cards like Red Leader, Red 5, or Rogue Leader. Would be a neat thematic way to give them a bump.

I really like that idea. Would be so cool. RED LEADER STANDING BY

This way you could actually make it a unique point decrease for -2 points. You still cant quite take 5 xwings in a list, but now if you take one it costs two less!

and maybe the Rogue leader does something else, not a point decrease.

You could do the same for Gold Squadron and the Y-wings. Would be a good way to get them some EPTs.

Yes sorry, I didn't mean that you had called for a Roark decrease. That is what it sounded like I said. My bad.

I was just saying though that his ability didn't make that big of a difference in Wave 3, and I would have at least considered it.

--

How far did Jan go? I think top 8 right? at least top 16. I don't think that level of success and showing should merit that. At some point I think you have to allow the people to find the less cost effective choices they want to take for synergistic choices.

No worries.

Jan as the pilot made it to Top 16 and Top 32. You can see the Worlds thread for details.

I prefer using one or two x-wings in builds with other stronger ships beside them, such as two B-wings.....but truthfully the B-wings really do outshine the x wings....especially with Rebel Aces, the E2 Copilot option really opens up so many new doors, not to mention the wealth of secondary weapon possibilities that the B-wing allows!

X-wings are mildly unpowered. A little tweak would be nice but I think you need to be careful about constant tweaking to try and put ships over the average-efficiency line- as soon as you move one ship up, something else drops below the line. You can't have every ship having above-average efficiency.

You can, however, reduce the variance between the ships, so you don't have strong negative outliers.

Absolutely, which is why I totally agree with things like the Tie Advanced needing a solid fix, and I'm perfectly happy with the chardaan refit. The X-wing though is only marginally underpowered in comparison, I'd argue that it is not a strong negative outlier. Something like a droid which increases it's mobility would be a nice tweak, as mobility seems to be its biggest issue; but I would not be in favour of a points reduction.

The later models of X wings, namely the T-65Cs are described as being faster models almost on par with A wings. I could easily see a title card carrying a discounted engine upgrade for x-wings. MAybe limit the boost to only be used after straight or bank maneuvers.

You could also do the same for an astromech, although that may make for very powerful turreted Y wings.

We can banter about the how's all we want. 5% of points spent on the top 32 at Worlds was spent on Xwings.

That's not the theme I'd want to see. I would prefer it rank in the top 4 of percentages. Really I'd prefer it in the top 2 like the Tie fighter. Hell at the moment this game reflects the old video games. Tie Fighter completely outclassed X wing too.

While I agree that the X-wing needs something, a points decrease is probably not it. I am not sure that 5 X's would be that good anyway, but points cost decreases are hard when you have so many X-wing pilots in the environment already. Some need to be more "cost effective" and others don't.

Fundamentally to me, the X-wing at present is too squishy. It just doesn't hold up to sustained firepower like the B-wing or Y-wing do (nor does it have anyway to avoid sustained firepower). In a perfect world where we could just change the stats on the X-wing I think we could quite safely make the X-wing 3 shield/3 hull and be done with it. It doesn't really make all that much sense that the Y-wing was 1 extra shield and the B-wing has 2.5 times the shields of the X-wing. You could make the argument that the X- and B-wing should have the same hull with the B having 2 more shields, while the Y- and X- have the same shields, while the Y- has 2 more hull. It has a nice sense of balance to it. The E- then ends up not being just an outright better X-wing. How you achieve this with a card I am not sure. Zero points: plus 1 shield, is a terrible and inelegant solution (unfortunately), and in general the designers have shown a knack for creative and elegant solutions.

I like the idea of using Astros to help the X-wing, but they have to be really cost effective to do so, since there is a lot of price pressure on the X-wing generics and named pilots. Named X's already struggle to be able to get 4 ships in a list, and 3 small ship lists just don't realistically cut it in any meta. The free focus action on a green move is actually a really great concept for all three astro equipped ships. For the Y-, it makes the Blaster Turret way more viable. For the X- it gives it a bit more offensive punch without sacrificing defence (i.e. use the TL to boost offense, and focus for defence). For the E- it gives it some really nice action economy (particularly for the generics, focus/evade or focus/BR), but also sets up named E-wings with triple actions. Are triple actions a problem for the game? Not sure at this point. But that droid would still have to cost 2 points at minimum and while it is great and a really nice design, it just might not get used because of cost. That being said I would love that card. As an aside, really good card for torpedo toting ships (another plus).

Other options, S-foils? For a card that specifically boosts X-wings this is the logical choice. Is something like a 0 point upgrade that gives a single reroll on attack worth it? That being said the reroll an attack dice option (similar to twin-linked in some other game) does help with torpedoes which is nice. Is this too close to predator? 2-3 points is pretty close to what the X-wing needs to make up in points. It makes the X-wing better for sure, but is it really enough to see them on the table more often on it's own, I doubt it.

I had a discussion with my brother the other day and we were discussing an X-wing equivalent of the Royal Guard Interceptor. Would a Rogue Squadron generic PS6 with an EPT for 24 actually get used? I like the idea, but still don't think we would ever see them and this just points to the fundamental issues with the X-wing. Other than a few really good abilities (and none of the pilot abilities are bad) the X-wing just suffers from the Jack of all Trades issue, a good all around ship that actually does nothing all that well. Personally, I think one more shield would make them a lot more reliable and allow players to trust them more (but I shudder to think of a 7 HP Biggs, haha).

The X-wing is definitely a hard ship to fix, but it does need it.

I've been playing 3x lists for the past few game nights. I did it to prove to my self they are still playable and they are. They sadly make for long drawn out games though. They have flown well against dash, whisper, soon tir, and patrol leaders, Ive lost about half the games but they were close calls.

My next test flight will be

Luke draw their fire r2d2

Wedge predator r5p9 (focus for shield, if I got name wrong )

Wes VI, stress astromech

I would love more maneuverability on them, a discard for a free action boost would be fun. Maybe as a 0 cost torpedo.

Or a title that allowed discarding a shield to add an extra hit result.

The later models of X wings, namely the T-65Cs are described as being faster models almost on par with A wings. I could easily see a title card carrying a discounted engine upgrade for x-wings. MAybe limit the boost to only be used after straight or bank maneuvers.

You could also do the same for an astromech, although that may make for very powerful turreted Y wings.

Title sounds good. Free boost after green maneuvers, perhaps? Could be further balanced by imitating Night Beast's ability (can't be used after green maneuver sheds a stress)

No one would ever down Luke

I think 'fixes' in the form of either a 'Rogue Squadron' title card, or 'S Foils' modification card, would be apt.

Perhaps an idea could be:

"Rogue Squadron: After you perform a green maneuver, you may perform a free barrel roll action. You cannot equip this card if your pilot skill is lower than 3." at 1 pt

IMO, the X-Wing needs the barrel roll more than it does the boost. If an X-Wing pilot wants the same manoeuvrability as an Interceptor, he should be willing to spend another 4 pts on engine upgrade, bringing total cost to 5 pts. This would fit nicely with the famous scene in the trench run where Rogue Squadron performed a barrel roll to commence their attack run.

Yet, because it is worded as a 'barrel roll action', it is not overpowered in the sense that it can't be triggered if the green maneuver results in a collision or in landing on an obstacle. Also, the latter caveat prevents rookies from becoming OP.


"Closed S Foils. X Wing Only. - Action: Reduce your primary attack value by 1. Until the end of this round, increase your agility value by 1."

In the classic nomenclature, closing the S Foils improves flight at the expense of a delay in firing the four lasers. The reduction of the primary attack value and increase in agility value fits into this narrative, and offers more possibilities for X Wing pilots that may be outmaneuvered, and require that extra kick in defensiveness.

I like the closed s-foills accept that it might be overpowered with Biggs, that plus shield/hull regen? Maybe make it an x only astromech?

With authothrusters coming out there cant be a title card with boost for the xwing. Then you can do the mod and the title.

Fixing it would be easy

Title: Rogue Squadron

x-wing only; Gain the evade ability for your upgrade bar. 1pt

This would let xwings evade, stay cheap and wouldnt steal the astromech slot from them. I thought about doing barrel roll instead of evade but then it may compete directly with bwings which have focus,TL and barrell roll so now xwings have focus,TL and evade. I also like evade better becasue it fits with the elite squadron idea and doesnt clash with the plus one agility astromech people use on biggs or the bwing. It also will only bring rookies up to 22 points which is naked blue squadron. It will also let pilots like luke or wedge use PTL with an R2 so they could evade and focus. This means they get to live longer. Their main problem right now is survivability in comparison to other ships. With this fix they get an action cheaper than normal, and dont lose any of the previous attempts like the astromechs. Its also xwing only so no ywing and ewing problems.

As for how to get it out. just put in the next rebel ship as a bonus. just because its xwing only doesnt mean it HAS to come in an xwing. If its needed i'd be fine if it came in another ship. That can be fixed by providing two or even three of them with that single ship just in case so you dont need many.

With authothrusters coming out there cant be a title card with boost for the xwing. Then you can do the mod and the title.

having a title that allows boosts for X-wings won't necessarily allow Thrusters because that requires the boost icon on the action bar, which only EU gives

A title that granted free boosts or some such would not make it possible to equip the mod

Here's how I think we should fix X-wings: Astromechs. More unique and generic Astromechs. AFAIK, Astros are the only way for a ship to consistently 'regen' health, making them very good upgrades for their points cost. But many of the Wave 1 Astros needed you to roll a green dice, which I've proposed could be changed, so R5-K6 was a slightly worse FCS and R5 D8 was an Action to discard a face down damage. As well as some new Astromechs down the line (like Wedge's one on the core box, R2 A3 I believe, who is asking to get given an ability to synergize with Wedge).

Mentioned something a long these lines a while ago and a number of people mentioned that some combinations would be "broken" but if were tossing out ideas to spice up the X-Wing a notch:

Title: Rogue Squadron

Cost: 0

PS 5 and Higher or Unique X-Wings only
Add 1 additional Astromech Slot to you Upgrade bar.

R2-R5 (non-unique)

Reduce the cost value of your ship by 1.

Cost: -1

Rogue Squadron Pilot

Basic X-Wing Stats

Pilot Skill 5

Cost: 25

----

some of the obvious expensive combos would be:

R2D2 + R2 (5)

R3A2 + R2 (3)

R5D8 + R5 (5)

R7T1 + R7 (5)

R2D2 + R5P9 (7) This one could easily be fixed by adding "cannot have 2 Unique Astromechs"

The intent of R2-R5 would be for cost breaks for "lesser" astromechs such as R5K6, R4D6 and negate the cost of the 1pts Astromechs for the higher PS X-Wings.

It's also -1 vs the Cardaan -2 because 4pts for R2D2 is tough enough. 3pts is still bearable considering the Dual Astromech require PS5+ or a named X-Wing Pilot. And since Y's and E's have access to Astromechs, it's "buff one; buff all" so it can't be to great a cost break.

Would also allow for a 5 X-Wing list with no other upgrades.

The problem: It's not very thematic to suddenly have two droids on an X-wing.

You could argue that for just about any ship. With the min maxing case there is out of each ship either 1 pilot that is played (such as Soonter Fel) and a ship that is played allot such as Phantoms.

For X-wing they have their champion pilot which is Biggs Darklighter who is the most common X-wing pilot you will see, so as long as he is such a viable target you will still see X-wings in the upper meta.

Now there are ships which are barely used for example the Tie Advanced who would have Vader or none and the Tie Bomber which sometimes used Captian Jonus as a support for HLC Defenders or Firesprays and neaither of them do you see in the upper meta.

Ships like B-wings and Falcons you see quite a few of. B-wings are great on their stats alone that the generics are the most common, and as for Tie Fighters low point cost you see the swarm has always been a viable strategy for table top miniature games.

Not thematic if you think about it as 2 droid sockets on the ship. Think of it as an "Astromech Service Pack 2". The Title Name could be easily changed to that, But Rogue Squadron was more than their Pilots it was their Astromechs also; Artoo, Whistler, Mynock/Gate. The dual slot is to add "additional personality" to the Astromechs.

MJ, what would it do to the X-wing if you had a unique title you could take for -2 points?

I still like the title ideas: Red Leader, red 5, Rogue Leader. etc.

The most annoying aspect I have had using X-wings is always being at 101 points during squad building and having to toss the idea out. I have been able to be successful using X-wings competitively though, so while I would not mind some type of point reduction I would not say it is absolutely necessary.

Ahh never mind. You can't do a -2 unique title. Biggs would be too powerful. Not over powered. Just really good

I enjoy the idea of getting cheap astromechs that could function the same as FCS or altering blank evade results at the cost of an added stress or spending a focus. A chardaan refit style title that cuts out the torps for a reduction of points would be cool. I might finally have an extra couple of points to spend on some of the cheap and generic astromechs that I almost never use.

How about a title: -1 points if you equip a droid and gain the evade action.

Makes x wings just a bit more resilient and flexible, reduces their overall costs and encourages the use or asttomecjs that never get used,but does so without allowing their points value to slip to 20, which would enable 5 x-wing squads - something I think we can all agree we dont want to see.

I am close to publishing a massive update to my scripts and pilot costing method. Here is the snippet for X-wings.

TL;DR: Every X-wing with the possible exception of Biggs is almost certainly overcosted, including Wedge.

-------------------------------------- wave 1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- X-wings -----------------------------------

Commentary

The generic X-wings are overcosted by about 2 points, and most of the named pilots also appear to be overcosted. This generally agrees with tournament results. Biggs is the exception, and his ability is virtually impossible to mathematically predict, but he clearly has a disruptive ability that is one of the best in the game.

Decreasing the cost of the Rookie Pilot to 20 or 19 would allow 5 of them in a list, which is almost certainly why they were initially priced at 21 points during wave 1. However, now that alternatives (B-wing, Z-95) are available, generic X-wings see almost no competitive use.

Cost | PS1 Jousting Efficiency |Ship name actual|predict| PS1 | std | range | req effPS2 X-wing 21 | 18.4 | 20.2 | 88.3% | 86.3% - 90% | 135%PS4 X-wing 23 | 19.8 | 20.4 | 87.1% | 85.1% - 88.7% | 159.1%Tarn Mison² 23 | 21.1 | 19.2 | 92.6% | 90.5% - 94.3% | 159.1%"Hobbie"¹ 25 | 21.6 | 20.4 | 87.2% | 85.2% - 88.8% | 185%Biggs Darklighter³ 25 | 23.6 | 18.4 | 96.6% | 94.4% - 98.4% | 185%Garven Dreis² 26 | 23.3 | 19.5 | 91.2% | 89.1% - 92.9% | 198.6%Jek Porkins^0.5 26 | 23.3 | 19.6 | 90.7% | 88.6% - 92.4% | 198.6%Luke Skywalker* 28 | 26 | 21 | 93.7% | 91.6% - 95.5% | 189.1%Wes Janson² 29 | 25.5 | 19.8 | 90.1% | 88.1% - 91.8% | 241.6%Wedge Antilles* 29 | 26.9 | 21.1 | 93.7% | 90.3% - 96.5% | 200%

*Luke (approximation): 20% more durability*Wedge: as per ability

For once that my personal experience coincides with your numbers juggling.

During Wave 1 and 2, every time i said that X-Wings in general were not as efficient at their cost than other ships i nesrly got lynched every time. Which is pretty clear because the X-wing was then the meta ship for rebels, together with the upconing Falcon when wave 2 hit. But i always knew it was overcosred in conparison to the simple Tie Fighter. Either that or the Tie was undercosted. In comparison to other ships like A-Wings and Advanceds of course it looked more than fine.

People only began to realize it when B-Wings came out and now, compared to the point efficiency of Z-95.

But there is a problem definitely and it was there from the start. Just because there were less ships and options, it wouldn't show that much back then.

The basic ship costs 21 for the simple reason they didn't want to see 5-ship Swarms with them. I think it would not have been a problem, just a stromg squad at that time. You say it's overcosted 2 points, which may well be, but it's really the one point to 20 that really hurts the X-wing. It falls into a category with other ships at or just below 25 points. And for 4 points you can put anything on an X-wing, it will never become as good as 2 Bandits, an adv. Sensor B-wing, 2Ties, or even a naked Phantom!

Here's the product:

"Trench run" booster pack.

Contains one Alternate paint scheme X wing miniature and one TIE advanced miniature.

Contains a slew of cards only usable by those ships, including a generic "Rebel Astromech: Xwing only, reduce the cost of this ship by 1" (2 copies in the pack).

"Use the force" EPT. Just because theme and "Stay on target" has already been done.

"S Foils" - as suggested maybe?

"R2-D4" Unique astromech - 2 points. Duplicate the ability of one other Astromech in your squadron (declare at the start of the game/tournament what ability he is copying if there is more than 1 possible target).

and stuff.

Christmas for everyone.

Complaints about MORE variant Xwings...well...what's the game called dummy?