As a Rebel player, I am increasingly bored and reluctant to play X-Wings in any of my builds (fun or serious).

With their limited actions (only Focus + Target Lock; no boost or barrel roll unless you add Engine Upgrade @ 4pts or Expert Handling @ 2 pts), average manoeuvre dial, and relatively high cost, it feels like they are just not worth the points. Add to that, their 2 agility and 5 hit pts don't exactly make them 'tanky' or that survivable. End of the day, you have a ship that is mediocre in most respects at a moderately high cost that is more than likely to get outmanoeuvred by Interceptors, Phantoms, Vader Advance, and other ships.

At least the TIE Fighters are still of some relevance with their low cost, and excellent ability like that of Howlrunner.

The only X-Wing I feel is worth flying is Biggs. In terms of the roles that the other named pilots play, there are quite simply better alternatives (E.g. Keyan > Wedge in terms of damage dealing).

So, is it just me? Or do they actually need some form of an update or 'fix' to ensure their relevance in the meta gameplay?

It's just a pity that THE iconic ship of the genre is increasingly losing its relevance.

Nah. I believe x-wing generics are fairly boring, but the characters and astromech slots open up a ton of options.Having played both wedge and keyan (in the same list even), wedge blows the later out of the water with a minor investment of predator. To get close to Wedge's damage, Keyan needs to get expensive. At the same price, its not even close (Wedge is damage, Keyan is maneuverability)

The only thing that needs tweaking are the large turreted ships that leave them in the dust.

I agree that the X-wing needs a little nudge, but I don't agree that Keyan has a straight up higher damage output than Wedge. Keyan is more maneuverable and can turn a stressed attack into a modifier attack, but straight up with focus on both Wedge is handily better. It all depends on the flying and on what shots you get, so Keyan is better overall, but not because of firepower.

In the most recent scum and villainy podcast episode they interview Frank and Alex (the lead developers) and they talk about this. Alex and Frank agree that the X-wing needs some love as it's largely been ousted by the B-wing when it comes to the generic pilots.

Xwings are the same old same old ship that compared with other ships is not as exciting. that I think is what makes the appealing to use. You do have to think about how to use them best, you can get some great damage out of a fleet of 4 and you have some nice options with the astromecs that make the interesting to play.

I think it's about mindset, running a squad of just xwings or even just having a few in your squad can realy give that feeling of the rebels going in against insurmountable odds, much like the movies.

Certain pilots have great ablitys that can combine to much more than thay seam on paper. You mentioned wedge have you run him with a stress droid and maybe vi or predator, moving last and shooting first and giving that stress out can combine fantastically with other things (ion shots of any kind) plus he may not have done a lot of damage but will usually have stripped tokens at the least which opens that juicy target up for the rest of your fleet. Tarn mison with I think it's r7 is also a great combo that gets over looked in the early stages of a game and then in the late game he realy shines.

I agree rookies are a bit meh, but that too can work in your favour as they can be left to do there own thing, 3/4 red dice is always nice.

Having said all that I'll always be keen for more upgrades as it just adds more variety to game play and that's what I love about this game.

I just played a game with my dad with 150 pt squads for each of us. He flew 3 bounty hunters, colonel vessery, and a scimitar squadron bomber. I used 6 rookie pilots each with a set of proton torpedoes, the 4 and changing 1 focus to a crit took out the bomber and defender in two rounds. By the end of the game I won and only lost one xwing. I don't think they need fixing at all.

Yes, they need fixing. Their wings need a split at their tip, a sharper nose, slightly larger cockpit windows, and a blue paintjob....

I just played a game with my dad with 150 pt squads for each of us. He flew 3 bounty hunters, colonel vessery, and a scimitar squadron bomber. I used 6 rookie pilots each with a set of proton torpedoes, the 4 and changing 1 focus to a crit took out the bomber and defender in two rounds. By the end of the game I won and only lost one xwing. I don't think they need fixing at all.

Sure, at 150pts, the marginal cost of deploying X-Wings are much more tolerable thank compared to playing them at 100pts.

Plus, playing against firesprays, and TIE bombers don't really draw out the limited utility that flying X-Wings seem to offer.

Am in agreement with other commenters that the inclusion of Astromech droids adds a nice dimension to the game, but my personal opinion is that that isn't enough to mitigate against the general gameplay.

Thought about interesting combinations like Tarn Mison and R7, or Jek Porkins with R5-D8 and PTL, it's novel initially, but the novelty quickly wears out - for me at least.

I just played a game with my dad with 150 pt squads for each of us. He flew 3 bounty hunters, colonel vessery, and a scimitar squadron bomber. I used 6 rookie pilots each with a set of proton torpedoes, the 4 and changing 1 focus to a crit took out the bomber and defender in two rounds. By the end of the game I won and only lost one xwing. I don't think they need fixing at all.

Sounds like a non-standard, friendly game and sample size of 1. No offense, but that's not convincing. There is widespread consensus that B-wing generics outclass X-wing generics, at least.

It's not a huge difference in effectiveness; but there is definitely a squeezing out of x-wings in competitive play.

In the most recent scum and villainy podcast episode they interview Frank and Alex (the lead developers) and they talk about this. Alex and Frank agree that the X-wing needs some love as it's largely been ousted by the B-wing when it comes to the generic pilots.

Yep, I think its a pretty wide consensus that generic x-wings are largely extinct from the meta.

I think it will be a difficult 'problem' to fix, given that there are many named pilots that are quite powerful, points efficient, and have useful abilities.

How do you fix a generic ship without making the named pilots over-powered? Any fix that made generics relevant at the cost of making Wedge a monster would not be worth it.

Bad generics are even more of a problem in other ships, for example E-wings generics never see the light of day competitively.

Overlooking that particular problem, potential fixes could come from astromechs, or title cards for later models of X-wings

(T-65C, T-65C-A2 would both be well-within the appropriate time frame for the game).

Astromehcs would provide the most organic fix to generic pilots (the stress bot was a good step in the right direction). Even if the X shares that upgrade slot with the Y, the Y has to split its damage either through one max ala ion or two separate attacks ala title so it shouldn't be difficult to design a mech that buffs one without making the other ridiculous. E-wings get them too, but as mentioned the generics are so woefully over-costed as to never see use, and the characters are also incredibly pricey.

Here's a simple one: green maneuver --> free focus (action?). Gives rookies TL + Focus and removes the penalty for bumping, gives rebel Y-wings an excuse to run Blaster Turrets, and E-wings tons of action efficiency with advanced sensors, all while not stacking with things like R5-P9

Other than them, though, X-wings are in a fine place for the most part. Tarn, Biggs, Luke (lone wolf, baby!), and Wedge have all seen repeated success in the squads I have used them, at least

The problem of a generic dial is something they share with every class of ship that isn't a swarm (more bodies to block with) or a phantom/interceptor

I really think on the grand scheme of things the X-Wing is getting left behind as newer ships really have taken the forefront, namely the B-Wing.

I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of "re-tooling" card like the Chardaan Refit did for the A-Wing. I wouldn't mind seeing X-Wings dropped by a point or two via a title card, or given access to a system upgrade or BR action.

It is cool that the developers are already aware of this and seem to have plans to correct it.

Thats generally the problem with any game that has the Iconic unit.

Its the first one released, sets the stat benchmark and is normally the 'in the middle' choice that all others are based on and deviate from.

The X-Wing is a good ship, but its not as fast as the A-Wing, or as Agile as the B-Wing, or as tough as the Y-Wing etc so it often gets overlooked as 'the boring one'. Ive no problem flying a squad of Rookies though, or the tradtional 'Red Squadron' trio.

The generic X-wings are perhaps not quite as good as they once were, but the multitude of named pilots give a lot of options that are still very good. I see the X-wing as a customisable tool, with the right pilot and build centered around that pilot it can do still do wonders.

I am close to publishing a massive update to my scripts and pilot costing method. Here is the snippet for X-wings.

TL;DR: Every X-wing with the possible exception of Biggs is almost certainly overcosted, including Wedge.

-------------------------------------- wave 1 ------------------------------------
-------------------------------------- X-wings -----------------------------------

Commentary

The generic X-wings are overcosted by about 2 points, and most of the named pilots also appear to be overcosted. This generally agrees with tournament results. Biggs is the exception, and his ability is virtually impossible to mathematically predict, but he clearly has a disruptive ability that is one of the best in the game.

Decreasing the cost of the Rookie Pilot to 20 or 19 would allow 5 of them in a list, which is almost certainly why they were initially priced at 21 points during wave 1. However, now that alternatives (B-wing, Z-95) are available, generic X-wings see almost no competitive use.

Cost | PS1 Jousting Efficiency |
Ship name actual|predict| PS1 | std | range | req eff
PS2 X-wing 21 | 18.4 | 20.2 | 88.3% | 86.3% - 90% | 135%
PS4 X-wing 23 | 19.8 | 20.4 | 87.1% | 85.1% - 88.7% | 159.1%
Tarn Mison² 23 | 21.1 | 19.2 | 92.6% | 90.5% - 94.3% | 159.1%
"Hobbie"¹ 25 | 21.6 | 20.4 | 87.2% | 85.2% - 88.8% | 185%
Biggs Darklighter³ 25 | 23.6 | 18.4 | 96.6% | 94.4% - 98.4% | 185%
Garven Dreis² 26 | 23.3 | 19.5 | 91.2% | 89.1% - 92.9% | 198.6%
Jek Porkins^0.5 26 | 23.3 | 19.6 | 90.7% | 88.6% - 92.4% | 198.6%
Luke Skywalker* 28 | 26 | 21 | 93.7% | 91.6% - 95.5% | 189.1%
Wes Janson² 29 | 25.5 | 19.8 | 90.1% | 88.1% - 91.8% | 241.6%
Wedge Antilles* 29 | 26.9 | 21.1 | 93.7% | 90.3% - 96.5% | 200%

*Luke (approximation): 20% more durability
*Wedge: as per ability

I know it's already been done with the A-wing, but a chardaan-style fix could really shoot the x-wing back up in popularity.

Or, a title that adds something for free would be amazing as well, and unlike a mod, it wouldn't preclude the use of Engine Upgrade. Maybe a title card that adds a barrel roll or evade ability? I don't really think X-wings need any boosts in offense, as they are already solid with 3 dice and many pilots with great abilities. They do lack a bit in maneuverability for sure--they're almost a pure jousting ship, which in this day and age isn't going to win very often.

A title to sneak on a Chardaan style benefit would be simple.

Rogue Squadron.

Wraith Squadron

A 27 point wedge would lead to a ton of bellyaching in my local group

The trick with Wedge I've found, is just not to joust. X-wings, least of all elite pilots, are just not built for it like the Z-95 (cheap as hell) or B-wings (system upgrade guarantees dice modification through either pre-manuever action or pre-kturn target-lock on FCS). Also, the fact that he's freaking Wedge means he'll be focus fired into oblivion if you do something as silly as deploying him out in the open (unless you have Biggs along, ofc)

Abuse the fact that he almost always deploys last (PS 9) to set up him away from the main body of the enemy, and set your more joust-capable ships in the middle (since they'll be lower PS, you'll usually want the middle in order to cover Wedge deploying on either the right or left flank), While they smash head-on into the enemy, Wedge comes in from the side and starts removing them piece-meal.

The trick to maximizing Wedge's basically glass-cannon status (de-cloaked phantom w/hull upgrade does not a durable ship make) is to use the rest of your squad to block, which denies actions and keeps the bulk of enemy ships from being able to pour shots onto him. Meanwhile, Wedge's high PS, ability to carry predator, and pilot ability then let him pick off enemies one by one (especially poor ties). More importantly, his incredibly modest cost relative to other high-damage ace pilots let you hit a lot more squad than you might be used to seeing with the likes of Han or Whisper. While there's not enough room for 6 bandits, there is enough room for a 5 ship squad featuring Wedge and another modest ace with 3 Bandits

That's, imo, how you balance the fact that the X-wing is not as throwaway as fodder ships nor as "elite" as ships that you can just vomit points into (ala phantom, Han).

Barrel roll would be fantastic.

IMO, it is absolutely ESSENTIAL that the core iconic ships (Xs, TIEs, Ys, etc.) remain relevant at all times. I don't really care if the HWK or E-Wing slips into second tier status, but when you think Star Wars dogfights, you think X vs TIE, and that must remain essential to the core game. To that end, while attributing some decline due to the natural tendencies towards newer, shinier waves, the X-Wing appears to be severely declining in relevance. If you take Biggs, and a sprinkling of Wedge and Jansen, out of it, they are virtually non-existent. Now, maybe some of this will take care of itself when the meta isn't so heavily Falcon, Phantom, and Swarm, but the fact that most people consider Z-95s and B-Wings much better buys than the X-Wing is troubling. The core ship, the game's namesake, cannot slip into irrelevance for the long-term health of the game. I trust FFG to figure this out, but we are rapidly getting to the point where so many ships need titles or fix mods that simply having an X-Wing Version 2.0 may be a better choice.

well, the episode VII trailer does feature the X-wing 2.0

Yes, they need a nudge, but unlike some of the imperial ships the xwing is still competitive due to several named pilots and R3-A2.

The fix is pretty easy - there are numerous titles they can give it, also an xwing specific "XJ" modification would be cool.

The biggest issue, and the designers alluded to this in the S&V interview, is where would you release such a fix. Xwings have already had a 2nd pack in the transport. Really, there should have been an xwing title in that pack but *shrugs*.

It also seems unlikely that rebels will also get new Z95 and Ywing minis, but could really use new pilots so maybe they will release cards/pilots for the xwing, Z95,and ywing in some pack without minis or in addition to a repainted Yt-1300 or Ewing or something.

The Xwing was essentially the backbone of the rebel fleet and it's most effective fighter. While it was not the best at any one thing it was very good at just about everything.

This description does not match the Xwing in the game. Xwings should be the most common ship being run and they aren't.

I am inclined to believe that the reason for the cost of X-wings were at least initially to stop the inclusion of 5 in a 100 points squad. If that is indeed the case, what would happen IF we could take five of them? Would that be too powerful?

I have crazy rules for Veteran Elite Pilot skills, so I can just fix this stuff on my own.

The Xwing was essentially the backbone of the rebel fleet and it's most effective fighter. While it was not the best at any one thing it was very good at just about everything.

This description does not match the Xwing in the game. Xwings should be the most common ship being run and they aren't.

Was, though

At this point in the game, we're all over the place. We have the older Ys and Z-95s clashing with Defenders and Phantoms and the like.

As someone with bare minimum exposure to the EU, I have no frikken clue where in the time-line we are or how common x-wings are supposed to be