Go back and read the mocking, sneering characterization of my side of the argument.

Him and *many* others on this forum have been behaving this way. It got ridiculous over the weekend and made the situation much worse.

And the 3rd faction wasn't *needed*. I would argue that the epic imp is.

But even here, you're pretty much making my point. What YOU wanted was far more important than what anyone else might have wanted.

You need to realize it wasn't a case of one or the other.

I don't begrudge you wave 6. Why do we have to shut up for you to enjoy it?

They are completely unrelated.

Also, some of us play epic for fun. We field the big ships because its the main appeal of epic (for us).

*Everyone* knows an Imperial epic is coming.

Most of us know why it wasn't now. And it wasn't because of wave 6.

If you don't like it then stop playing and leave us Star Wars fans in peace.

Much of the EU is far more 'star wars' than the post 90's trash.

Was this post really necessary? I'm concerned that you didn't actually read anything I wrote.

While I was surprised by a new faction, I was never against it. And I do like what they have done (in fact I've already placed my pre-order). I would hardly say this wave was "meh".

Now, that being said, make more Epic ships!

Most of us know why it wasn't now. And it wasn't because of wave 6.

Okay, I'll bite. Why weren't Epic Imperial releases announced or discussed at GenCon?

I would hope that it would be because FFG had enough new shiny funness that they didn't need to announce an Epic ship 8-9 months before release like they did for the Corvette and Transport. Because that is the logical conclusion.

Think of this : You sit down to eat and enjoy an exquisite feast ; now you are ready for desert...You find out it is Pecan pie , butt you were expecting Coconut cream pie...On top of that , you hate Pecan pie...I will say a lot of the players are in a state of what the heck ?...You cannot ever understand or underestimate the actions of the Corporate decisions...Watching all of the new videos adds more Mehhhhh ; compared to watching last yrs Ohhh yeah baby...There was a definite disturbance in the Force...Now we have to just sit back and sit on the porcelain goddess and wonder...Hmmmmmm what is coming next...

I think a lot of people assumed this, but it really wasn't a guarantee. The two sides can compete well enough with the Imperials only having fighters - it's common wisdom that the huge ships are underpowered, so the odds of an Imperial huge ship replacing fighters is slim.

It's also a very sunny-day assumption that Epic was going to get equal playtime. Nothing indicated it would or should. FFG is known to produce multiple formats and playstyles, but they're not all created equal. I also think the idea of a tournament event where rounds run 3+ hours was always a long shot to catch on in any big way.

That leaves the huge ships as primarily cinematic, and that doesn't require parity.

So no, there really wasn't any guarantee. Lots of people may have convinced themselves there was, but if you invent your expectations it's not really FFG's fault for not meeting them.

The reason people accepted it as a guarantee is because accepting it isn't goes against two of FFG's main design themes. FFG has placed great value on the iconic feeling of the game, and part of said iconic feeling is the Empire having big ships. Second, FFG has always released their products equally. Every wave has had two new ships for each side, so the idea that the Empire would get an Epic ship was pretty much a guarantee given past precedent.

And even then, all that is assuming that we don't get the announcement in a month or two, at which point this is not "They didn't give me what I expected", it's the even sillier "They didn't give me what I expected soon enough".

Ah, that's where the fear comes in. Though the real source of it is not really Scum and Villainy, but actually Armada. When Armada was first revealed, the first sliver of doubt entered these forums. Will it be a replacement for Epic? Is FFG going to abandon Epic? People kept their fears (mostly) to themselves because hey, gencon was only a week away. Surely FFG would brush aside the fears and announce the Imperial Epics!

Except... they didn't. Which brought the fear that Epic is abandoned crashing to the forefront, and people started to panic. And when people panic, they look for stuff to blame. Scum and Villainy was the easy target, and so here we are.

I can certainly understand the disappointment - I thought it made a ton of sense to do a third faction as Wave 3. Nope. I honestly, truly wish they hadn't added more turret ships to the game. Again, nope. But should I have expected them? Or did FFG somehow betray me by not living up to that expectation? Not at all. Nor do I begrudge anyone who loves the Outrider, which seems to be a lot of what we're seeing here... "Don't make what THEY want, make what I want!"

Oh, I agree that the anger directed at Scum and Villainy is rather irrational. I'm just noting that the anger goes a bit deeper than disappointment.

I would hope that it would be because FFG had enough new shiny funness that they didn't need to announce an Epic ship 8-9 months before release like they did for the Corvette and Transport. Because that is the logical conclusion.

There are lots of logical, reasonable hypotheses (and I agree that's one of them). But JaggedLittleFel isn't guessing--he knows, and apparently so do lots of other people. I'm feeling a bit left out.

I sense hostility from you VS.

It was a throwaway comment, I don't need slaying.

I'm merely restating an opinion that's been voiced here by others:

They didn't give us an epic yet because they don't want to muddy the marketing waters for Armada.

Edit: actually, don't I remember you voicing it?

I sense hostility from you VS.

It was a throwaway comment, I don't need slaying.

I'm merely restating an opinion that's been voiced here by others:

They didn't give us an epic yet because they don't want to muddy the marketing waters for Armada.

Edit: actually, don't I remember you voicing it?

If that is their fear, the only way they can avoid muddying the marketing waters for Armada is if they don't release any news on the Imperial Epic until after Armada is released. By which time the Epic crowd may have decided to move on to Armada.

I sense hostility from you VS.

It was a throwaway comment, I don't need slaying.

I'm merely restating an opinion that's been voiced here by others:

They didn't give us an epic yet because they don't want to muddy the marketing waters for Armada.

Edit: actually, don't I remember you voicing it?

I'm still working on trying to dial back my snark, and it's been a long and trying day. I'm sorry.

No, I'm not of the opinion that FFG held back on Imperial Epic due to the Armada announcement. I think they're two separate games, with overlapping audiences but not the *same* audience, and I think if they had Imperial Epic stuff available to show off, they would have wanted it out front-and-center for all of us to drool over.

I don't understand the "I can't afford a third faction" argument, either - and most here probably know my feelings about FFG price point by now.

It's not like they're going to bombard players with the S&V faction the same month they dump out 2 new Imperial packs and a Rebel pack.

You think keeping up with a third faction is tough, try playing Attack Wing where every month a new set of pack releases for ships carries cards you need 2-3 of to go on your Borg or anti-Borg 1-ship build...

S&V was the next logical step. Looking at the lore, the rebels are almost out of ships. They were either going to have to divvy the unaligned ships up between them or make a new faction. I don't blame them for taking the 2nd option.

I'll just leave this here.

-snip-

"These are people who are trying to make the coolest, most fun stuff they can possibly come up with... and succeeding beyond all of our wildest dreams. "

Without the time to respond to other parts of the discussion at the moment, I wanted to at least say THANK YOU for posting the video. After being off the Internet at GenCon for a few days, I came back and references to the interview were everywhere but no one had actually linked to it until now.

Well, this has sure turned into a big steaming pile of vitriol...

First thing I want to say is that the OP really shouldn't presume that his own opinion is that of the whole or even the majority. In fact, based on the initial reactions I saw, at least half of the Wingers on this board love the idea, and that's a pretty significant number.

Those of you who don't like it, I sympathize, actually. While I loved this announcement, I appreciate that you feel you were let down and would rather the game stick to its core elements. I don't really understand why some of you feel you need to collect all three factions when you didn't need to collect all two before this announcement, though. To me, it sounds like someone going to a buffet and saying, "Oh god, why would they set out all this food and expect me to eat it? Do they want me to get fat(ter)?" You may not mean it that way, but it sounds like it. The game has always been about having ships which were internally balanced to each other, and if you didn't want to play a certain way or include certain ships you didn't have to. Personally, I can't stand playing Rebel v. Rebel or Imperial v. Imperial. It feels wrong to me, despite that being what goes on in tournaments. Nobody complained about that before, as far as I can tell, because it's not something the game forces you to do. Nor do you have to play with S&V ships. In fact, it's not unreasonable to tell the other person who brought S&V ships, "I'm sorry, but I really would prefer to play with either Imperial or Rebel ships. May we use some of mine and battle with them?" It would be polite, and if they didn't want to then they'd be at fault for screwing up plans to play the game.

One thing I wanted to specifically address is WW's idea about modules. This really doesn't make sense to me either, no matter how many times I read what he said. For the purposes of this game, the factions and the modules he talks about are identical in every way, shape and form. A Scum and Villainy Module also implies a complete boxed set, which both doesn't fit the business model of X-wing, nor would it be anything less than prohibitively expensive since it would need to be a complete fleet. If it wasn't a complete fleet of fighters, then it would have to be issued with individual fighters in clear bubbles, which is what they were going to do anyway by making a third faction.

Personally, I agree with the decision to make a third faction. I didn't think that it was likely, but it makes sense to me and was something I was hoping for. I don't particularly need it. I can still use my imagination to say that the "Rebel" HWK-290 in my fleet is actually a Rneeki smuggler that the Rebels hired, and therefore he would be classified as a Rebel. Easy peasy. But this new faction is just fine in my opinion. As long as the ships and upgrades continue to be balanced, I really don't see a bad side to offering a brand new faction that adds and interesting new gameplay mechanic.

Also, for the record, when I read about the announcement, I jumped off my couch and pumped my fist into the air at the sight of the new ships and the description of their flavor.

My not so "Meh" battle tonight:

The reason people accepted it as a guarantee is because accepting it isn't goes against two of FFG's main design themes. FFG has placed great value on the iconic feeling of the game, and part of said iconic feeling is the Empire having big ships. Second, FFG has always released their products equally. Every wave has had two new ships for each side, so the idea that the Empire would get an Epic ship was pretty much a guarantee given past precedent.

I have to disagree with both of these.

Yes, the Empire may be known for those big ships. What are those big ships? Star Destroyers. Not a Vigil, or a Gozanti, or any of the other (relatively small) handful of ships that might work at this scale. So I think anyone banking on "The Empire is known for its big ships!" was going to be disappointed no mater what.

"Equal release" also strikes me as an invented thing, because there's actually not much that's equal. The Empire is +1 on large based ships. The Rebels have a 4:1 advantage in turrets, and FAR more unique crew options. Wave 3 (which is the handy one to find on the X-wing wiki) had 11 upgrades for the two Rebel ships, and 17 for the Imperials. You still can't get an HLC in a Rebel ship. Rebel Aces is at least 6 months behind Imperial Aces, and probably would have been more except for the rather obvious delay in production for Rebel Aces.

Honestly, short of the most simplistic ship count there's really very little parity to be found.

Even if we're incredibly generous (incredibly) and grant that everything guaranteed a huge Imperial release, have people not been paying attention to the release schedule issues? The Tantive IV, announced at last year's GenCon, didn't release until May - a whole pregnancy later. Many of the product updates for X-wing have gone from "in production" to "on the boat" to "now available" in less than two weeks, a completely unrealistic amount of time... which indicates that FFG is being a little cagey with their announcements concerning X-wing stuff. Has nobody considered that it's possible they learned a lesson from all the griping and whining about the delays, and aren't announcing things until they're sure they're on the way? And that historically every time they've stepped up to something bigger, there have been unexpected delays?

There's really nothing about this that is even a slightly reasoned response. So I have all the sympathy for it that I'd have for a toddler throwing a tantrum in the toy store. And that's before we even touch the Armada issue, which I'm not even going to bother with because it's little more than flat-out paranoia.

One thing I wanted to specifically address is WW's idea about modules. This really doesn't make sense to me either, no matter how many times I read what he said. For the purposes of this game, the factions and the modules he talks about are identical in every way, shape and form. A Scum and Villainy Module also implies a complete boxed set, which both doesn't fit the business model of X-wing, nor would it be anything less than prohibitively expensive since it would need to be a complete fleet. If it wasn't a complete fleet of fighters, then it would have to be issued with individual fighters in clear bubbles, which is what they were going to do anyway by making a third faction.

That's just the thing. It wouldn't make a big difference to you, but it would to me, even if you don't understand how or why. We all win.

I have to disagree with both of these.

Yes, the Empire may be known for those big ships. What are those big ships? Star Destroyers. Not a Vigil, or a Gozanti, or any of the other (relatively small) handful of ships that might work at this scale. So I think anyone banking on "The Empire is known for its big ships!" was going to be disappointed no mater what.

Oh yes, anyone expecting Star Destroyers is setting themselves up for disappointment. But given that FFG was all about "iconic" during the announcement of Epic, it's pretty easy to see why people took an Imperial Epic for granted.

"Equal release" also strikes me as an invented thing, because there's actually not much that's equal. The Empire is +1 on large based ships. The Rebels have a 4:1 advantage in turrets, and FAR more unique crew options. Wave 3 (which is the handy one to find on the X-wing wiki) had 11 upgrades for the two Rebel ships, and 17 for the Imperials. You still can't get an HLC in a Rebel ship. Rebel Aces is at least 6 months behind Imperial Aces, and probably would have been more except for the rather obvious delay in production for Rebel Aces.

Honestly, short of the most simplistic ship count there's really very little parity to be found.

Yes, and right now Epic is unbalanced in ship count. You mention Rebel Aces, but that really supports the point rather than detract from it: Rebel Aces is coming (and incidentally, was announced about six months after Imperial Aces was announced, and a couple of days after Imperial Aces was released).

Even if we're incredibly generous (incredibly) and grant that everything guaranteed a huge Imperial release, have people not been paying attention to the release schedule issues? The Tantive IV, announced at last year's GenCon, didn't release until May - a whole pregnancy later. Many of the product updates for X-wing have gone from "in production" to "on the boat" to "now available" in less than two weeks, a completely unrealistic amount of time... which indicates that FFG is being a little cagey with their announcements concerning X-wing stuff. Has nobody considered that it's possible they learned a lesson from all the griping and whining about the delays, and aren't announcing things until they're sure they're on the way? And that historically every time they've stepped up to something bigger, there have been unexpected delays?

FFG currently has more announcements running for X-wing than ever before (Rebel Aces, Wave 5 and Wave 6). I don't think that indicates FFG is being cagey with announcements.

There's really nothing about this that is even a slightly reasoned response. So I have all the sympathy for it that I'd have for a toddler throwing a tantrum in the toy store. And that's before we even touch the Armada issue, which I'm not even going to bother with because it's little more than flat-out paranoia.

Fear and paranoia rarely lead to reasoned responses. My last few posts are explanations, not justifications.

One thing I wanted to specifically address is WW's idea about modules. This really doesn't make sense to me either, no matter how many times I read what he said. For the purposes of this game, the factions and the modules he talks about are identical in every way, shape and form. A Scum and Villainy Module also implies a complete boxed set, which both doesn't fit the business model of X-wing, nor would it be anything less than prohibitively expensive since it would need to be a complete fleet. If it wasn't a complete fleet of fighters, then it would have to be issued with individual fighters in clear bubbles, which is what they were going to do anyway by making a third faction.

That's just the thing. It wouldn't make a big difference to you, but it would to me, even if you don't understand how or why. We all win.

Still don't see how it'd make a difference for you though. Stores will still run mostly "all modules" games because it attracts the biggest line of people and shows of the most products, and in private games you can ask people not to play S&V ships regardless of modules anyway.

Oh yes, anyone expecting Star Destroyers is setting themselves up for disappointment. But given that FFG was all about "iconic" during the announcement of Epic, it's pretty easy to see why people took an Imperial Epic for granted.

But there isn't an iconic Imperial corvette...

Honestly, I'm rather disappointed with all the "We didn't get what we wanted what is this trash they gave us?" stuff.

I've been hoping - and commenting that it was a good idea - for a third faction since before Wave 3 was announced. And the epic guys go all of what, three months worth of waiting and it's "Ooooh, so disappointed, this is soooo horrible, I don't know if I can keep playing this game!!!"

A year for the Imperial players, technically. Epic ships were first announced around last year's gencon.

Announced, yes. But the Rebel ships - and Epic scale as an X-Wing variant - have only actually been playable for 3 months.

So it's 3 months since the launch of Epic scale that Imperial players (or Epic players in general) have been waiting.

Oh yes, anyone expecting Star Destroyers is setting themselves up for disappointment. But given that FFG was all about "iconic" during the announcement of Epic, it's pretty easy to see why people took an Imperial Epic for granted.

But there isn't an iconic Imperial corvette...

But it is iconic that the Empire has big ships, and rather not iconic for the rebels to be outclassing the Empire in the big ship department.

Combine that with FFG being generally unafraid to reach into the EU for ships (we ran out of movie-canon TIE's by the time of Imperial Aces, which was full-blown Royal Guard Interceptors and 181st TIE squadron) and that Epic is only half complete (well, a third complete with S&V) and you have the reasons it was taken for granted.

Honestly, I'm rather disappointed with all the "We didn't get what we wanted what is this trash they gave us?" stuff.

I've been hoping - and commenting that it was a good idea - for a third faction since before Wave 3 was announced. And the epic guys go all of what, three months worth of waiting and it's "Ooooh, so disappointed, this is soooo horrible, I don't know if I can keep playing this game!!!"

A year for the Imperial players, technically. Epic ships were first announced around last year's gencon.

Announced, yes. But the Rebel ships - and Epic scale as an X-Wing variant - have only actually been playable for 3 months.

So it's 3 months since the launch of Epic scale that Imperial players (or Epic players in general) have been waiting.

That's not how hype works though. It's like saying that the people who love S&V aren't still waiting and clamouring at the bits for more info because it's been announced. If anything, the people who were wishing for a third faction are more excited than ever exactly because they know it's coming now (and rightfully so).

Oh yes, anyone expecting Star Destroyers is setting themselves up for disappointment. But given that FFG was all about "iconic" during the announcement of Epic, it's pretty easy to see why people took an Imperial Epic for granted.

But there isn't an iconic Imperial corvette...

But it is iconic that the Empire has big ships, and rather not iconic for the rebels to be outclassing the Empire in the big ship department.Combine that with FFG being generally unafraid to reach into the EU for ships (we ran out of movie-canon TIE's by the time of Imperial Aces, which was full-blown Royal Guard Interceptors and 181st TIE squadron) and that Epic is only half complete (well, a third complete with S&V) and you have the reasons it was taken for granted.

Honestly, I'm rather disappointed with all the "We didn't get what we wanted what is this trash they gave us?" stuff.I've been hoping - and commenting that it was a good idea - for a third faction since before Wave 3 was announced. And the epic guys go all of what, three months worth of waiting and it's "Ooooh, so disappointed, this is soooo horrible, I don't know if I can keep playing this game!!!"

A year for the Imperial players, technically. Epic ships were first announced around last year's gencon.

Announced, yes. But the Rebel ships - and Epic scale as an X-Wing variant - have only actually been playable for 3 months.So it's 3 months since the launch of Epic scale that Imperial players (or Epic players in general) have been waiting.

That's not how hype works though. It's like saying that the people who love S&V aren't still waiting and clamouring at the bits for more info because it's been announced. If anything, the people who were wishing for a third faction are more excited than ever exactly because they know it's coming now (and rightfully so).

Yeah I went to order a simple y-wing but they are either sold out or they've raised the price in order to gouge, got a hawk for £10 though so I'll have eleven ships ready when wave six hits which is plenty.

Can't wait.

That's not how hype works though. It's like saying that the people who love S&V aren't still waiting and clamouring at the bits for more info because it's been announced. If anything, the people who were wishing for a third faction are more excited than ever exactly because they know it's coming now (and rightfully so).

Indeed. And once we actually see an announcement about Imperial Huge ships, the hype will likely go through the roof.

But we haven't had an announcement so far - all we have is speculation and wishlisting. Which is fine, of course, there was plenty of that for the 3rd faction as well. We had speculation and wishlisting for a 3rd faction since the launch of the game.