It seems like things have bunched up a bit at the end of this year. Rebel Aces was announced how long ago, and still isn't out? Wave 5 was already available at Gencon, proving it is basically finished, but we don't get it for another few months. And then Wave 6 is a few months after that. Seems like Rebel Aces should have come out already, and Wave 5 should maybe have been released just before Gencon. Then Gencon would have been a chance to show off the new ships in tournament play, and they could follow a routine of 'announce the next wave when the current one is released'. That would be best I think; always something to look forward to without being overloaded.

I just don't understand why your so gleeful I didn't get my ship.

There was nothing in there that was gleeful about not getting epic ships. He was simply pointing out that some people have been waiting wayyy longer for a 3rd faction then we've waited for Imperial Epic ships.

Go back and read the mocking, sneering characterization of my side of the argument.

Him and *many* others on this forum have been behaving this way. It got ridiculous over the weekend and made the situation much worse.

And the 3rd faction wasn't *needed*. I would argue that the epic imp is.

The amount of kneejerk negativity regarding this announcement and Armada's reveal are quite offputting, though I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

The new faction looks great, and should add even more interesting variety to the game. As far as balance worries go, both Rebels and Imperials can now field both big, cheap swarms and tiny elite lists, as well as everything in between. I don't see how a third faction is going to destabilize the paradigm.

Let's wait till hard evidence of a problem exists before we start grousing.

Oh, and as a Y-wing lover through and through, I couldn't be more excited. To each his own!

It's also hard to appreciate what you already have when you know the contents of three more unreleased products. There's been what, one thread this last week that had anything to do with the current state of the game? Wave 4 is hardly two months old and nobody is talking about it. Does anyone besides me even still play the game?

Well, I think there's a subtle difference between not getting what we wanted, and getting something we didn't want. What would have been really nice, though, is if FFG had slowed down their releases for a heartbeat. Regardless of what I think about a third faction, three more releases before the end of the year is just too much. If they had given themselves some room and built up expectations between now and spring, even folks like me might have had a hard time not being enthusiastic about S&V. As things stand, it's simply too much too fast.

You're getting greedy, FFG.

I'd prefer to think that FFG are responding to demand as opposed to getting greedy (though you could argue the terms are close to being interchangeable ) - but for the most part I take your point.

It's OK for FFG to take their foot off the gas just a little from time to time and right now might not be such a bad time.

I'll give them credit where it's due though, they released the new faction in a pretty classy way - they could have been spectacularly greedy and released entirely new ships and a completely unique starter set - but instead they chose to kick off with 2 ships that are already in the collections of at least 50% of all players - probably more.

Remember they're actually kicking off with *4* ships we have.

I think what also may have happened is the delay (was this ever confirmed? it seemed like a pretty big delay) between when the Tantive, Transport, and Imperial Aces were announced and when they finally came out. If there really was a delay, due to production issues or whatever, it may have pushed those products from a potential 2013 release into 2014. If those problems are settled, we may see scum and villainy as the final release of 2014 and then ease back into a more standard 3 release per year calendar or whatever for 2015

Honestly, I'm rather disappointed with all the "We didn't get what we wanted what is this trash they gave us?" stuff.

I've been hoping - and commenting that it was a good idea - for a third faction since before Wave 3 was announced. And the epic guys go all of what, three months worth of waiting and it's "Ooooh, so disappointed, this is soooo horrible, I don't know if I can keep playing this game!!!"

A year for the Imperial players, technically. Epic ships were first announced around last year's gencon.

As excited as i am for scum. I agree that it seems to be moving too fast. I hope they really slow down releases, now more than ever they will require to do more playtesting before releasing stuff.

I think what also may have happened is the delay (was this ever confirmed? it seemed like a pretty big delay) between when the Tantive, Transport, and Imperial Aces were announced and when they finally came out. If there really was a delay, due to production issues or whatever, it may have pushed those products from a potential 2013 release into 2014. If those problems are settled, we may see scum and villainy as the final release of 2014 and then ease back into a more standard 3 release per year calendar or whatever for 2015

Or we'll be on cusp of wave 6's release when they announce wave 7, just like they have for the past two releases now.

That's the problem though. I love y-wings too, but as of now it's completely unclear if there's any rebel pilots included (probably not), or any upgrades that rebels can use (maybe? how many?)

So yeah, new y-wings, great, exciting! Oh wait, I can't actually use most of it...

Oh, and as a Y-wing lover through and through, I couldn't be more excited. To each his own!

Go back and read the mocking, sneering characterization of my side of the argument.

Him and *many* others on this forum have been behaving this way. It got ridiculous over the weekend and made the situation much worse.

And the 3rd faction wasn't *needed*. I would argue that the epic imp is.

An Epic Imperial ship won't fix the problems with Epic play. It'll just be another $100 dud that isn't as good as a bunch of fighters. So neither was probably technically "needed".

But even here, you're pretty much making my point. What YOU wanted was far more important than what anyone else might have wanted. Entire threads (like this one) about how they don't care about what we're getting because it's not what they wanted or expected. The height was Krynn's impressive "FFG kicked us in the balls and cannot be trusted" tantrum, but there's been plenty to go around.

Honestly, I'd like to see an Epic Imperial ship, although I'm not convinced its feasible (although the Gozanti would probably work). But the absolutely childish responses we've seen have, do my discredit, generated a sense of schaudenfreude. Before this past weekend I really didn't feel strongly either way. Now, I'm actually kind of enjoying the histrionics and hope we never get one. Sad, but a weekend of people screaming about how FFG betrayed them by producing something I'm excited for will do that.

The Y-axis is releases that quarter.

Waaagh is definitely correct in that the releases have sped up. The question though is is FFG pumping out more and more faster and faster, or (and this is my theory), is this a backlog? If you look at the SKUs they don't match the release order at all. Red are the ones that break the sequence.

SWX 01: Core
SWX 02-05: Wave 1: X-wing, TIE fighter, Y-wing TIE advanced
SWX 06-09: Wave 2: Slave I, Millenium Falcon, A-wing, TIE interceptor
SWX 11: Rebel Transport
SWX 12-15: Wave 3: Lambda-class Shuttle, HWK-290, B-wing, TIE bomber
SWX 16-19: Wave 4: TIE defender, TIE phantom, Z-95 Headhunter, E-wing
SWX 20: The board tiles
SWX 21: Imperial Aces
SWX 22: Tantive IV
SWX 23-24: Wave 5: Decimator, YT-2400
SWX 25-28: Wave 6: Most Wanted, M3-A Interceptor, StarViper, IG-2000
SWX29: Rebel Aces

I'll now reorder these into Release Order.

SWX 01: Core
SWX 02-05: Wave 1: X-wing, TIE fighter, Y-wing TIE advanced
SWX 06-09: Wave 2: Slave I, Millenium Falcon, A-wing, TIE interceptor
SWX 12-15: Wave 3: Lambda-class Shuttle, HWK-290, B-wing, TIE bomber

SWX 21: Imperial Aces

SWX 11: Rebel Transport

SWX 22: Tantive IV
SWX 16-19: Wave 4: TIE defender, TIE phantom, Z-95 Headhunter, E-wing
SWX 23-24: Wave 5: Decimator, YT-2400

SWX29: Rebel Aces
SWX 25-28: Wave 6: Most Wanted, M3-A Interceptor, StarViper, IG-2000

What does this mean? It means the Transport started design before Wave 3. If they released in order of conception we'd have had it before we had B-wings. Why was it held back? Any number of reasons. What am I attempting to illustrate? That sometimes things take longer to design and balance than anticipated.

Galaxy Tiles, SKU20, was announced April 2013, soon after Wave 2. That means Wave 4 could have beginnings as far back as six months after the game was first released two years ago. What am I trying to prove? That a lot of the stuff we have now has been in development for a long time.

Look back at my graph. Something look wrong? For those not looking at the quarter numbers and just following the Wave 1, Wave 2, Wave 3 spikes, it looks like Wave 4 only has one ship. That's because that's Imperial Aces. Now I make my crazy assertion.

I'm pretty confident that Wave 4 was originally planned for Q1: it should have come out in February when Imperial Aces did.

Why was it delayed? Probably the same reason our friend from further up this post, Rebel Transport, was: it took longer than anticipated to balance it or get Licensing to approve it (TIE phantom's kinda obscure) or something.

Look back at the graph of the release schedule. Now, what would it look like if everything had gone to plan? If the Rebel Transport was released after Wave 2, Wave 6 is released in Q1 of next year and if Wave 4 came out on time?

Our sudden increase in releases in the second half of this year is mostly gone. This is a steady but regular and hardly excessive release schedule.

It's not much of a stretch to push this a little further to get what I think was FFG's plan. I'm going to tweak the release of Imperial Aces a quarter backward and Rebel Aces a quarter forward: one quarter of drift between planned release and actual release is hardly unreasonable.

Bearing in mind that Q3 14 is only that short because Wave 5 only has two ships, who would complain if FFG released like that? A wave every six months and a misc expansion between them. I'm very confident this was the plan. With the graph like this, it goes Wave, Huge, Wave, Acepack, Wave, Huge, Wave, Acepack, Wave.

Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy. They got Scum ready for their big reveal at GenCon and seeing as it was ready went for Christmas release as any wise business does, Wave 4 was a quarter late and the Transport even more so.

This isn't FFG stepping up the release schedule, it's all the stuff they planned to release earlier turning up with the stuff they planned to release now. It's two buses turning up at once syndrome: there's only two now because one of them is 30 minutes late.

Thoughts, Waaagh?

I did not mind the cost ( in the 90's), it was the flippant way they would obsolete your armies every few years.

Well back then the game was still good, now your using skirmish rules for a large army and it does not work well at all games are 3-4 hours sometimes and whoever gets first turn tends to win, i just got so sick of it x-wing was a real breath of fresh air.

Back after a little six hour nap.

Yeah it is a **** shame they let it go to hell.

I worked at game stores back then, and could see where it was all going to go, with the prices and limited models and so forth, and the rules changing. YUK!

FFG is a new type of company, with a full awareness of it's products and customers.

The games we love are going to be fine!

<<< Zee-Yowm!

Go FFG GO!

Or we'll be on cusp of wave 6's release when they announce wave 7, just like they have for the past two releases now.

Which is way too fast. They should be giving people at least a couple months to actually get a new wave and have a chance to play with it for a while before distracting everyone with previews of new upcoming stuff.

My 40K Black Templar army (and some old, oop Juan Diaz Daemonette sculpts & assorted metal miniatures) paid for the vast majority of my X-Wing collection. As well as carry cases, gaming mats & 3D asteroids.

As much as I wanted to hang to them, they weren't being used, so they got replaced.

The good news is, there's plenty more GW stuff sat in the cupboard that can pay for Wave 5 and 6 as well...

You know you want to get more STAR WARS STUFF... MORE, MORE, MORE!

Here's the issue with the announcements/previews. We will know the product exists at roughly the same time as they announce new products right now. Stores will get the pre-orders.

Now, this is the dilemma FFG finds themselves in. Do they let the stores announce their new products, likely with very little information. This is how it works for Attack Wing, with players getting their info via the retailer solicits, with very little information. Or, should FFG try to encourage us with some information, to encourage us to talk to our LGS's for pre-orders, helping both the store and FFG.

I know the new shiny can be distracting. But, no info can be just as distracting. Look at Epic.

my wife is ready to call the TV show hoarders to get rid of my gaming stuff I no longer use, its a lot.

I've tried selling what I could stomach getting rid of, but there is still a lot.

and my last bunch of ebay auctions trying to sell the marines I bought, from when I thought about starting another army, I was selling 2 terminators for $5 starting, $10 for a 10 man tactical squad, and they didn't even sell.

this was proof to me, GW is not in as much demand as they think they are. they are a dying company, and they killed themselves. it use to be a game by gamers, now its a corporation that makes games.

as you can see in the FFG videos, they are clearly gamers who make games, and they are smart about the business end of it. they don't walk on water, but they water ski pretty good.

Yeah it is awesome too.

Here's the issue with the announcements/previews. We will know the product exists at roughly the same time as they announce new products right now. Stores will get the pre-orders.

Now, this is the dilemma FFG finds themselves in. Do they let the stores announce their new products, likely with very little information. This is how it works for Attack Wing, with players getting their info via the retailer solicits, with very little information. Or, should FFG try to encourage us with some information, to encourage us to talk to our LGS's for pre-orders, helping both the store and FFG.

I know the new shiny can be distracting. But, no info can be just as distracting. Look at Epic.

Whether three months in advance or one month in advance, stores will get their pre-orders. That's not that big of a problem.

As for Epic, well, Epic is kind of a different beast in that regard. Unlike the usual waves, which contain something for everyone, Epic was only half finished when it was released. This made people clamor for more info, because they know an Imperial Epic ship is coming.

Honestly, I'm rather disappointed with all the "We didn't get what we wanted what is this trash they gave us?" stuff.

I've been hoping - and commenting that it was a good idea - for a third faction since before Wave 3 was announced. And the epic guys go all of what, three months worth of waiting and it's "Ooooh, so disappointed, this is soooo horrible, I don't know if I can keep playing this game!!!"

A year for the Imperial players, technically. Epic ships were first announced around last year's gencon.

I'm counting release-to-announcement, not announcement-to-announcement. If you want to count announcement-to-announcement, there are undoubtedly a lot of people who expected/hoped for this from the moment X-wing was announced, which just makes the gap that much larger.

But the core point is the same: show a little respect to what your fellow players might be excited for, even if you don't necessarily want it yourself. Mostly it seems to be coming from the people who had convinced themselves there would be an Imperial huge ship announced. When it didn't happen, they went insane.

If we look at that, there are really two possibilities: Not at all, or not right now. Either the Epic ships and play didn't do well enough to justify an Imperial huge ship, or they're going to do one and just haven't announced it yet. Either way, the wailing and gnashing of teeth has been excessive.

Personally, I think it's a combination of both. Given the dimensions of a foot-long wedge shape, I don't think the Vigil or any of the other popular suggestions are feasible at a price point they're willing to go with. The Gozanti, however, fits the bill - long, narrow, the profile is very similar to the Corvette. On top of that, it's going to be featured heavily in Rebels.

So in a few months they get a ship that's a centerpiece for the shiny new Star Wars show while presenting a structure that they can produce and pack at a common price point. What would you do?

Well, the reason for the wailing and gnashing of teeth is, as I mentioned earlier, because Epic in it's current state is half-finished. And that's the difference between those waiting for the Imperial Epic and those who were hoping for a third faction: The third faction was a maybe, the Imperial Epic was a guarantee.

Now that gencon has passed and not even the slightest hint of the Imperial Epic was heard, the tables have turned. The third faction is a guarantee, while the Imperial Epic... is a maybe. Combine this with the reveal of Armada for fleet battles in the Star Wars universe and there's a fear floating around that FFG is abandoning Epic.

And scared people can make... rash decisions at times.

I don't think releases are too fast, wizkidz rush things out and gw has gone to weekly releases frankly ffg is doing okay.

Heck it's taken until now for people to shrug off the neysaying about the defender.

If rebel aces hits September and wave five in October that's a reasonable gap then two months after we get wave six for crimbo, and armarda come the new year.

Well, the reason for the wailing and gnashing of teeth is, as I mentioned earlier, because Epic in it's current state is half-finished. And that's the difference between those waiting for the Imperial Epic and those who were hoping for a third faction: The third faction was a maybe, the Imperial Epic was a guarantee.

I think a lot of people assumed this, but it really wasn't a guarantee. The two sides can compete well enough with the Imperials only having fighters - it's common wisdom that the huge ships are underpowered, so the odds of an Imperial huge ship replacing fighters is slim.

It's also a very sunny-day assumption that Epic was going to get equal playtime. Nothing indicated it would or should. FFG is known to produce multiple formats and playstyles, but they're not all created equal. I also think the idea of a tournament event where rounds run 3+ hours was always a long shot to catch on in any big way.

That leaves the huge ships as primarily cinematic, and that doesn't require parity.

So no, there really wasn't any guarantee. Lots of people may have convinced themselves there was, but if you invent your expectations it's not really FFG's fault for not meeting them.

And even then, all that is assuming that we don't get the announcement in a month or two, at which point this is not "They didn't give me what I expected", it's the even sillier "They didn't give me what I expected soon enough".

I can certainly understand the disappointment - I thought it made a ton of sense to do a third faction as Wave 3. Nope. I honestly, truly wish they hadn't added more turret ships to the game. Again, nope. But should I have expected them? Or did FFG somehow betray me by not living up to that expectation? Not at all. Nor do I begrudge anyone who loves the Outrider, which seems to be a lot of what we're seeing here... "Don't make what THEY want, make what I want!"

It's also hard to appreciate what you already have when you know the contents of three more unreleased products. There's been what, one thread this last week that had anything to do with the current state of the game? Wave 4 is hardly two months old and nobody is talking about it. Does anyone besides me even still play the game?

There have been three new threads about the defender just today.

But isn't that basically what we have already? I don't see how your suggestion would be any different. No one is forced to buy or play with the S&V ships. The game is about as modular as it can be; as in, no one ship is required. You're free to customise your force any way you like with whatever ships you like (within the factions of course). It is no way required that you buy anything from S&V in order to play the game. And if your argument is that you will end up having to play against people using S&V, how would your way be any different? Surely those same people would want to use the S&V 'module', so therefore you'd be in the exact same situation.Note: Not trying to troll or harshly criticise; I just can't see how your suggestion is different from what we have already.

*sigh* No, nobody is forcing me to play the game. But they are forcing me to interact with elements of the game that I'd rather not. Even if I choose not to purchase the new ships (and I won't even bother addressing the issue of missing out on certain upgrades), I can't realistically stop my opponents from fielding them.

If you don't like it then stop playing and leave us Star Wars fans in peace.

Much of the EU is far more 'star wars' than the post 90's trash.