Most ships that do care can't use the SoT + Nav anyway, B-Wings being the only ship that can. But they have to pay for that crew slot so that changes things as well.

There's also the fact that you can hit a B-wing with an ion cannon with your eyes closed, and your combo doesn't matter if you don't have a dial to reveal.

The Stay on Target/Navigator combo has just got to keep the maneuver red. I think they can work in combo, but I think that once Stay on Target is used, any move finally done, will be red.

The best argument is that there is a long standing rule that once a negative effect has been enforced, you can't overturn that with a positive effect. The R2 Astromech cannot override a Damaged Engine Crit. The R2 astromech cannot override Stay on Target. Basically, you have to deal with the negative effects, and you can't get out of them.

I can't think of an example of being able to undo a negative effect. The only think close is Nunb or R2 making an ion move green. But I'm not sure that's quite the same thing. The ion rules just say you perform a white 1 straight maneuver. The ion 1 doesn't override a green 1 on the dial, because with an ion affect, there is no dial. If the ion rules said, do the smallest straight move on your dial, that maneuver is white regardless of the dial, then R2 and Nunb shouldn't work.

I can't see FFG allowing us to ignore the negative effects of Stay on Target with some other card. Can anyone give an example of a time where an in game negative effect has been enforced through a crit of an upgrade, and then had another upgrade that overturns it?

The Stay on Target/Navigator combo has just got to keep the maneuver red. I think they can work in combo, but I think that once Stay on Target is used, any move finally done, will be red.

The best argument is that there is a long standing rule that once a negative effect has been enforced, you can't overturn that with a positive effect. The R2 Astromech cannot override a Damaged Engine Crit. The R2 astromech cannot override Stay on Target. Basically, you have to deal with the negative effects, and you can't get out of them.

I can't think of an example of being able to undo a negative effect. The only think close is Nunb or R2 making an ion move green. But I'm not sure that's quite the same thing. The ion rules just say you perform a white 1 straight maneuver. The ion 1 doesn't override a green 1 on the dial, because with an ion affect, there is no dial. If the ion rules said, do the smallest straight move on your dial, that maneuver is white regardless of the dial, then R2 and Nunb shouldn't work.

I can't see FFG allowing us to ignore the negative effects of Stay on Target with some other card. Can anyone give an example of a time where an in game negative effect has been enforced through a crit of an upgrade, and then had another upgrade that overturns it?

If R2 can't override the Damaged Engine crit, why does Leia do anything at all?

Like... that's such a weird precedent to cite. Or to exist.

The R2 astromech cannot override Stay on Target.

The fact that R2 can't change the color caused by Damaged Engine could be used as the same justification for saying Navigator doesn't change the color of the maneuver from Stay on Target. Doing so would mean you don't break Fegigator.

The R2 astromech cannot override Stay on Target.

The fact that R2 can't change the color caused by Damaged Engine could be used as the same justification for saying Navigator doesn't change the color of the maneuver from Stay on Target. Doing so would mean you don't break Fegigator.

It's not.

the same.

maneuver.

Only the maneuver you rotate to with Stay on Target becomes red.

That maneuver stays red the whole time. Nothing overrides it being red.

Navigator rotates the dial to a different maneuver entirely, only triggering after SoT has completely resolved.

If R2 can't override the Damaged Engine crit, why does Leia do anything at all?

Because, there's a difference between having a maneuver turned red as a penalty, and one being red naturally. I admit that's a bit of justifying something that FFG has already done, and is a bit of a reach. But the FAQ for R2 Astromech does provide precedence for this.

So Leia allows people to turn a relieved red maneuver white, but wouldn't turn a maneuver that's now red because of Damaged Engine white.

Most ships that do care can't use the SoT + Nav anyway, B-Wings being the only ship that can. But they have to pay for that crew slot so that changes things as well.

Well, Phantoms can make excellent use of this of course.

As an errata rather than an FAQ for SoT I wonder if FFG would simply change the last sentence from "Treat that maneuver as a red maneuver" to "Treat your maneuver this turn as a red maneuver".

This would allow you to still use Navigator but not avoid the penalty of the red, it also shouldn't impact any other existing combo.

This of course depends on FFG wanting to prevent this combo.

I am confused why this card would be ruled any differently then Fett with Navigator.

The current FAQ states twice that fett + navigator can switch to any bank at any speed. Usually they are pretty good with examples if there was a ordering issue. The fact is both these combo's can end up in the same change no matter which order... (only different result could possibly be red/stress or not).

It appears that the simultaneous affect rule is applied in situations of "...reveal a maneuver...".

The Cloak/Advanced Sensors ruling seemed to key on the word "immediately" so it does not look to be applicable here.

Here's the logic you can use for this, and it's not that much of a stretch based on previous rulings.

If a maneuver's difficulty is changed by some effect, the highest difficulty must be used no matter what other changes are made to the dial or maneuver.

That means R2 Astromech can't change a turn that's bee made red by Damaged Engine to green, it would also mean that Navigator can't change the red maneuver from Stay on Target.

But that same rule does mean that the white straight 1 from Ion can be turned green because the maneuver caused by a ion token is the 'natural' maneuver and hasn't been changed. It also allows Leia to work, and Fett+Nav.

Well, Phantoms can make excellent use of this of course.

A stressed Phantom is looking at world of hurt, since it can't cloak. Even with ACD a phantom can't cloak when stressed.

Here's the logic you can use for this, and it's not that much of a stretch based on previous rulings.

If a maneuver's difficulty is changed by some effect, the highest difficulty must be used no matter what other changes are made to the dial or maneuver.

That means R2 Astromech can't change a turn that's bee made red by Damaged Engine to green, it would also mean that Navigator can't change the red maneuver from Stay on Target.

But that same rule does mean that the white straight 1 from Ion can be turned green because the maneuver caused by a ion token is the 'natural' maneuver and hasn't been changed. It also allows Leia to work, and Fett+Nav.

It's not.

The Same.

Maneuver.

The maneuver's difficulty gets changed by SoT.

Picture it becoming red in your mind. That maneuver has become red. Yay! SoT has been resolved!

Now Navigator triggers and rotates the dial to a different maneuver. That maneuver might be red or white or green. SoT has no effect on that maneuver, because SoT has been resolved and is not the effect rotating the dial - Navigator is.

At no point has the red-ness of that other maneuver been rescinded. It's still red!

But it isn't the maneuver on your dial anymore.

As an errata rather than an FAQ for SoT I wonder if FFG would simply change the last sentence from "Treat that maneuver as a red maneuver" to "Treat your maneuver this turn as a red maneuver".

Then you'd need more extensive rewording.

Current text:

When you reveal a maneuver, you may rotate your dial to another maneuver with the same speed. Treat that maneuver as red maneuver.

Your proposed text:

When you reveal a maneuver, you may rotate your dial to another maneuver with the same speed. Treat your maneuver this turn as red maneuver.

The second sentence in the current text is only applicable if you use the first sentence. In your text the second sentence always applies, making your maneuvers always red.

I'm just not seeing this being broken when compared with things like PTL/Advanced Sensors B-Wings, and Soontir Fel/PTL. And definitely not compared to a souped up Phantom.

Good positioned with ultra high agility ships you could already basically choose your position every turn (if in a more limited manner), and you could do it EVERY turn WITH actions and/or an EPT. I honestly don't see this being that great on those ships. PTL (and possibly Advanced Sensors) brings a lot more to the table, in my opinion. Late turn positioning every turn (though more limited), but with actions and/or an EPT is much more useful.

Where I see this really helping is with ships that don't have those maneuverability options, like Wedge. For them the addition of late turn maneuvering choices is huge. But certainly not broken, as it's still weaker than what Soontir Fel could already pull off.

Long story short, I don't see it as being any more scary or disastrous to the movement game than any of the ultra-maneuverable ship combos we already had. It's just expanding which ships get those benefits.

As for for Navigator combo...eh, not to worried about it. Of the ships that take it, only the Phantom (and soon, B-Wing) really gain much benefit from it. And of those two, I think only the B-Wing is REALLY going to want it, as the phantom can place it self almost at will.

I think the thing it is going to be most useful for is to help REACT against OTHER ships that can late maneuver, like that Phantom.

All in all, it doesn't sound broken to me, and seems like a fun addition.

Tycho was incredibly dangerous as he was ALWAYS able to get in the best possible firing position.

This card was letting my pilots easily react to my buddies movements. It felt like I was able to outsmart every move he tried to make. It started feeling like he couldn't even keep up with me.

Someone has probably already beaten me to questioning this, but how? Tycho ignores stress for actions, but he still can't get away with revealing a red maneuver. Stay on Target says when you reveal your dial, you can turn it to a different maneuver of the same speed, then treat it as red, so you're still revealing a red maneuver. Do that while stressed and you're getting the exact opposite of the best possible firing position, on top of no action.

And if you missed it in the article, R2 Astromech doesn't let you change SoT 1-2 reds to greens, so Etahn wasn't like as maneuverable as you were expecting either.

If you run Tycho more like a regular PTL A-Wing or Squint (actually doing green maneuvers to clear stress) it still looks like it would be pretty powerful, since he still gets his action after using it.

Sure, but the same could be said of any ship that can take Advanced Sensors, and if you're flying Tycho like that you're sacrificing his main selling point.

No your not, Tycho is still Tycho. You can still fly him like a bat out of hell and put stacks of stress on him, his utility never truly goes away. The real strength of putting SoT on him is that he is in an A-Wing so he can bleed any stress he gets easily and he is PS8 which makes the most out of SoT. It is so easy to bleed stress that I can do it every turn and still be dangerous. HOWEVER if I need Tycho to pull a white maneuver (of which there are only 6 out of 16) to line him up on a target I can still do that AND use his ability.

The thing is that if you stick PTL on Tycho he still isn't going to be as dangerous as he is with SoT. Stay on Target gives the users 100% control to react to how the tactical situation develops during the activation phase. You can put your ship exactly where it needs to be to have the greatest impact that turn and that is what makes this card so dangerous.

Well, Phantoms can make excellent use of this of course.

A stressed Phantom is looking at world of hurt, since it can't cloak. Even with ACD a phantom can't cloak when stressed.

Well, SOT is not something you would always use at any rate but if you can use it to make sure you are not in any arcs while still boosting your attack you might not care so much about your ACD for that turn. You'd be making hard choices every time, true, but that's part of the fun.

The drawback might be mitigated by ample use of Wingmen.

I'm not saying that this will be the be-all, end-all EPT for any ship of course, but there are options.

Personally, I'd throw it on an X-Wing or Advanced and not look any further. Maybe a Defender.

But it isn't the maneuver on your dial anymore.

Doesn't matter, because the maneuver made by that ship, will be red no matter what the dial shows. Effectively the effect by SoT overwrites the color of every maneuver on the dial, making them all red.

I'm not really saying how it does work, I'm simply pointing out the logic that FFG could use to make it so SoT + Nav doesn't change the color.

But who knows, maybe FFG will rule otherwise and say that SoT + Nav means the maneuver is what ever color the dial shows, at which point SoT does become quite a bit more useful, and bordering on broken.

Feels like turrets all over again. Bad players will use it to cover mistakes, good players to do the unexpected, and great players will continue to be almost untouchable.

Not only does your maneuver dial not matter any more (turrets) now mine doesn't either! (SoT).

But it isn't the maneuver on your dial anymore.

Doesn't matter, because the maneuver made by that ship, will be red no matter what the dial shows. Effectively the effect by SoT overwrites the color of every maneuver on the dial, making them all red.

I'm not really saying how it does work, I'm simply pointing out the logic that FFG could use to make it so SoT + Nav doesn't change the color.

But who knows, maybe FFG will rule otherwise and say that SoT + Nav means the maneuver is what ever color the dial shows, at which point SoT does become quite a bit more useful, and bordering on broken.

Where exactly do you think it says this on the card?

Because it doesn't say anything like that.

Word for word, it says you "treat that maneuver as red". That one, specifically. Not the whole dial.

Where exactly do you think it says this on the card?

You really need to go re-read my posts, because clearly you haven't actually read them yet.

Now if only it had said "immediately treat that maneuver as red"... Then it would be crystal clear.

Tycho was incredibly dangerous as he was ALWAYS able to get in the best possible firing position.

This card was letting my pilots easily react to my buddies movements. It felt like I was able to outsmart every move he tried to make. It started feeling like he couldn't even keep up with me.

Someone has probably already beaten me to questioning this, but how? Tycho ignores stress for actions, but he still can't get away with revealing a red maneuver. Stay on Target says when you reveal your dial, you can turn it to a different maneuver of the same speed, then treat it as red, so you're still revealing a red maneuver. Do that while stressed and you're getting the exact opposite of the best possible firing position, on top of no action.

And if you missed it in the article, R2 Astromech doesn't let you change SoT 1-2 reds to greens, so Etahn wasn't like as maneuverable as you were expecting either.

If you run Tycho more like a regular PTL A-Wing or Squint (actually doing green maneuvers to clear stress) it still looks like it would be pretty powerful, since he still gets his action after using it.

Sure, but the same could be said of any ship that can take Advanced Sensors, and if you're flying Tycho like that you're sacrificing his main selling point.

No your not, Tycho is still Tycho. You can still fly him like a bat out of hell and put stacks of stress on him, his utility never truly goes away. The real strength of putting SoT on him is that he is in an A-Wing so he can bleed any stress he gets easily and he is PS8 which makes the most out of SoT. It is so easy to bleed stress that I can do it every turn and still be dangerous. HOWEVER if I need Tycho to pull a white maneuver (of which there are only 6 out of 16) to line him up on a target I can still do that AND use his ability.

The thing is that if you stick PTL on Tycho he still isn't going to be as dangerous as he is with SoT. Stay on Target gives the users 100% control to react to how the tactical situation develops during the activation phase. You can put your ship exactly where it needs to be to have the greatest impact that turn and that is what makes this card so dangerous.

I don't know if I would say PTL necessarily ISN'T as dangerous. Thing is, with PTL (and possibly adding on the barrel roll EPS) he can re position (to a lesser degree) every turn, and never HAS to do a green maneuver. Also, he technically has MORE options and possible positions (because he can move, boost, and barrel roll, or move+boost+focus, etc.), whereas SoT simply improves your ability to make a good decision amongst the regular choice set, rather than providing expanded choices.

With SoT he can re re-position every other turn (at best), provided he does a green in between. Obviously very powerful, but I don't know if it is MORE powerful.

Finally, while SoT can technically be used every other turn, realistically it's only helpful when you have made the WRONG choice. Whenever you have made the correct choice (which for me at least has been more often than not) it does nothing, where as PTL is ALWAYS useful. It not only helps you re-position, but it expands your capabilities.

Honestly, I think PTL is probably better on Tycho.

Where exactly do you think it says this on the card?

You really need to go re-read my posts, because clearly you haven't actually read them yet.

You're trying to make ambiguous something that is crystal clear and well defined by the existing rules we have.

If you don't like the way the card interaction works, that's one thing. I have no particular strong feelings for or against errata to Stay on Target. But the actual card interaction as it exists now is not up for debate.

But the actual card interaction as it exists now is not up for debate.

Again you need to actually read my posts, because clearly you've missed the whole point behind all of them.

Finally, while SoT can technically be used every other turn, realistically it's only helpful when you have made the WRONG choice.

Yeah it's more insurance in the same way Gunner is. It's great if you make a bad choice, but if you pick correctly you may never find a use for it the whole game.