It also seems to me that this is going to be used by the type of player who'd need the help of what amounts to "Crap, picked the wrong maneuver, do-over!" I really think good competitive players have a better use for those two points, particularly on some of the ships being discussed.

Your point seems to be based on a misunderstanding, as I've been trying to explain.

I'm not trying to say how it works, and I've said that a number of times. I'm pointing out the justification and logic they could use in the FAQ to make it so SoT and Navigator don't change the color of the maneuver. Assuming of course they feel that SoT + Nav shouldn't work together.I fully understand how the card works right now, and how it interacts with Navigator.

I think you mean FAQ that SOT+Nav does change the color?

I'm not sure they need a justification, as there isn't one without errata-ing the card. SOT is very specific on what maneuver is changed to red. They've also ruled on almost this exact situation in the past with Fett. The only solution is errata if they want to break the synergy.

At no point has the red-ness of that other maneuver been rescinded. It's still red!

But it isn't the maneuver on your dial anymore.

Days like these that I regret being an actual lawyer and don't have time to engage in "rules lawyering" on the internet anymore.

Keep fighting the good fight.

Now, about my fee...

Where exactly do you think it says this on the card?

You really need to go re-read my posts, because clearly you haven't actually read them yet.

You're trying to make ambiguous something that is crystal clear and well defined by the existing rules we have.

If you don't like the way the card interaction works, that's one thing. I have no particular strong feelings for or against errata to Stay on Target. But the actual card interaction as it exists now is not up for debate.

Juts because you feel its crystal clear does not mean that it is actually crystal clear. There is ambiguity regarding how SoT and Navigator interact. There is the wording in the cards that can be read to see that the the Navigator move makes it now white, or green. But there is the precedence set by the R2 droid and Damaged engine which cites the rule that once a negative game effect has been introduced, you can't override it.

I think the general rule about not overriding negative effects superceeds the Navigator benefit. But that's me, and I may be in the minority, and even be wrong.

Let's not forget that there is also a debate that cites the timing issue about navigator and SoT. Do they suffer from the same problem as an Adv Sen cloak/decloak? I don't think so, but that argument has its merits.

No one should be throwing down absolutes on this just yet. The issue is very muddled, and far from adjudicated. We probably won't have an answer for another few months, until the next FAQ.

I welcome the idea of making high ps ships more desirable.

I just worry that those that enjoy the guessing game and trying to figure out their opponents moves may get discouraged.

I've heard some in my area voice concerns over echo in that regard. It no longer becomes a game about maneuverability when a player can change their direction on the fly

Hello,

Stay On Target card added to the Fab's Squadrons generator => http://fabpsb.free.fr

Enjoy !

I think you mean FAQ that SOT+Nav does change the color?

Perhaps that's where the confusion comes from. I meant that Navigator doesn't change the color set by SoT. So when SoT sets it to red, it stays red.

They've also ruled on almost this exact situation in the past with Fett.

That's not the same thing though. Nothing about Fett or Navigator change the difficulty of the maneuver SoT does. It's the same as the FAQ for R2 Astromech, or the part in the article that says R2 doesn't change the difficulty for SoT.

In both cases when a secondary effect such as Damaged Engines or SoT changes the difficulty of a maneuver, R2 can't change it back. You're stuck with the higher difficulty.

FFG could rule that SoT and Navigator work the same way, even though Navigator changes the maneuver itself, they could rule that the higher difficulty takes priority. This would let them rule that SoT + Nav still create a red maneuver, without breaking Fettigator.

Again they may not do that, they may be fine with SoT + Nav. So there will be no FAQ needed.

Juts because you feel its crystal clear does not mean that it is actually crystal clear. There is ambiguity regarding how SoT and Navigator interact. There is the wording in the cards that can be read to see that the the Navigator move makes it now white, or green. But there is the precedence set by the R2 droid and Damaged engine which cites the rule that once a negative game effect has been introduced, you can't override it.

And the introduced effect is NOT overridden. But it doesn't apply to every maneuver on the dial, only the one you just picked. If something lets you move to a different maneuver, the SoT effect doesn't touch it.

I think the general rule about not overriding negative effects superceeds the Navigator benefit.

There is no such rule. Note that Swarm Tactics can improve a ship's PS even if it has a Damaged Cockpit (which makes the PS 0).

Let's not forget that there is also a debate that cites the timing issue about navigator and SoT. Do they suffer from the same problem as an Adv Sen cloak/decloak? I don't think so, but that argument has its merits.

There is no timing issue about Navigator and SoT. The timing and effect between Navigator, SoT, and Boba Fett are all identical. Fettigator works, StayOnTargetagator works too. So no, no merits there.

No one should be throwing down absolutes on this just yet. The issue is very muddled, and far from adjudicated. We probably won't have an answer for another few months, until the next FAQ.

Nope, really not muddled. Sorry.

FFG could rule that SoT and Navigator work the same way, even though Navigator changes the maneuver itself, they could rule that the higher difficulty takes priority. This would let them rule that SoT + Nav still create a red maneuver, without breaking Fettigator.

They can (and frequently do) rule anything they want. And I fully expect that this is exactly what they will do. But that doesn't mean it's what the text says

But that doesn't mean it's what the text says

I agree, how it works right now is pretty clear. SoT + Navigator would allow you to ignore the penalty built into SoT. Because when you use Navigator you change the maneuver, so the one that SoT made red is no longer the one you're preforming.

Where exactly do you think it says this on the card?

You really need to go re-read my posts, because clearly you haven't actually read them yet.

You're trying to make ambiguous something that is crystal clear and well defined by the existing rules we have.

If you don't like the way the card interaction works, that's one thing. I have no particular strong feelings for or against errata to Stay on Target. But the actual card interaction as it exists now is not up for debate.

Juts because you feel its crystal clear does not mean that it is actually crystal clear. There is ambiguity regarding how SoT and Navigator interact. There is the wording in the cards that can be read to see that the the Navigator move makes it now white, or green. But there is the precedence set by the R2 droid and Damaged engine which cites the rule that once a negative game effect has been introduced, you can't override it.

I think the general rule about not overriding negative effects superceeds the Navigator benefit. But that's me, and I may be in the minority, and even be wrong.

Let's not forget that there is also a debate that cites the timing issue about navigator and SoT. Do they suffer from the same problem as an Adv Sen cloak/decloak? I don't think so, but that argument has its merits.

No one should be throwing down absolutes on this just yet. The issue is very muddled, and far from adjudicated. We probably won't have an answer for another few months, until the next FAQ.

First: forgive me for not breaking up the quote, it's hard to do on a mobile device.

Stay on Target moves the dial to another maneuver of the same speed. That specific maneuver is now red. Navigator then activates and changes the maneuver dial to a maneuver of the same bearing but different speed. So your SoT maneuver is still red, nothing has overridden it, just like your k-turn is still red, it's just not the maneuver you are performing. By your logic if a b-wing with navigator selected a 4 forward and then navigator moved it to 1 forward it would still have to be red. Or if this is about avoiding bad situations it means that damaged engines now turn your whole dial red because by not selecting the hard turns you are superseding a negative effect with a positive one by not selecting a red maneuver.

Navigator activates afterward by player choice, which is exactly the same as the Fett ruling.

So your SoT maneuver is still red, nothing has overridden it, just like your k-turn is still red, it's just not the maneuver you are performing. By your logic if a b-wing with navigator selected a 4 forward and then navigator moved it to 1 forward it would still have to be red. Or if this is about avoiding bad situations it means that damaged engines now turn your whole dial red because by not selecting the hard turns you are superseding a negative effect with a positive one by not selecting a red maneuver.

Uhm... what?

Your first part is good - you catch that the SoT maneuver is red, and ONLY that maneuver is red, and that the maneuver you actually end up with is NOT red. Good so far.

How do you get from that to Navigator carrying the 4 Straight red into the 1 Straight? That's pretty much the complete opposite of what you started with!

If you pick 4 Straight, it's red. If you use Navigator to change that to a 1 Straight, 1 Straight is green, not red. The maneuver you execute is green.

If you start on a 2 Straight, it's green. If you use Stay on Target to change to a 2 Right Turn, that 2 Right is now red. If you then use Navigator to change to a 3 Right Turn, the 3 Right Turn is white. Nothing has changed the 3 Right Turn in any way.

By your logic if a b-wing with navigator selected a 4 forward and then navigator moved it to 1 forward it would still have to be red.

I'm not completely sure who's logic you're referring to there. But I'll answer for mine.

My logic is this. That there can be a case made that SoT works differently then Fett does. Fett does nothing to change the difficulty of the maneuver. So lets say on Fett you pick a 2 Bank, it's a white maneuver. Fett does nothing to the difficulty of the maneuver, it's still the same as what the dial shows.

Now lets say you use Navigator to change that to a 1 bank, it's now a green maneuver because again Navigator doesn't mention anything about the difficulty.

But and again because I want to make this quite clear, I know this isn't how the card currently is worded... But you could make the argument that if an effect changes the difficulty of an maneuver that change stays in effect regardless of any changes made to the dial. So the difficulty set by SoT supersedes the dial, and any maneuver picked is Red.

This is something FFG could do in a FAQ, using the above reasoning. Doing so would then keep all past rulings in place.

So your SoT maneuver is still red, nothing has overridden it, just like your k-turn is still red, it's just not the maneuver you are performing. By your logic if a b-wing with navigator selected a 4 forward and then navigator moved it to 1 forward it would still have to be red. Or if this is about avoiding bad situations it means that damaged engines now turn your whole dial red because by not selecting the hard turns you are superseding a negative effect with a positive one by not selecting a red maneuver.

Uhm... what?

Your first part is good - you catch that the SoT maneuver is red, and ONLY that maneuver is red, and that the maneuver you actually end up with is NOT red. Good so far.

How do you get from that to Navigator carrying the 4 Straight red into the 1 Straight? That's pretty much the complete opposite of what you started with!

If you pick 4 Straight, it's red. If you use Navigator to change that to a 1 Straight, 1 Straight is green, not red. The maneuver you execute is green.

If you start on a 2 Straight, it's green. If you use Stay on Target to change to a 2 Right Turn, that 2 Right is now red. If you then use Navigator to change to a 3 Right Turn, the 3 Right Turn is white. Nothing has changed the 3 Right Turn in any way.

Exactly, I was quoting the other fellow and applying his potential reasoning for the FAQ to other situations where it makes no sense.

By your logic if a b-wing with navigator selected a 4 forward and then navigator moved it to 1 forward it would still have to be red.

I'm not completely sure who's logic you're referring to there. But I'll answer for mine.

My logic is this. That there can be a case made that SoT works differently then Fett does. Fett does nothing to change the difficulty of the maneuver. So lets say on Fett you pick a 2 Bank, it's a white maneuver. Fett does nothing to the difficulty of the maneuver, it's still the same as what the dial shows.

Now lets say you use Navigator to change that to a 1 bank, it's now a green maneuver because again Navigator doesn't mention anything about the difficulty.

But and again because I want to make this quite clear, I know this isn't how the card currently is worded... But you could make the argument that if an effect changes the difficulty of an maneuver that change stays in effect regardless of any changes made to the dial. So the difficulty set by SoT supersedes the dial, and any maneuver picked is Red.

This is something FFG could do in a FAQ, using the above reasoning. Doing so would then keep all past rulings in place.

Seeing as this hasn't shipped yet, this is something they can modify before we get them. something to the effect of "The chosen maneuver is immediately taken" or something

By your logic if a b-wing with navigator selected a 4 forward and then navigator moved it to 1 forward it would still have to be red.

I'm not completely sure who's logic you're referring to there. But I'll answer for mine.My logic is this. That there can be a case made that SoT works differently then Fett does. Fett does nothing to change the difficulty of the maneuver. So lets say on Fett you pick a 2 Bank, it's a white maneuver. Fett does nothing to the difficulty of the maneuver, it's still the same as what the dial shows.Now lets say you use Navigator to change that to a 1 bank, it's now a green maneuver because again Navigator doesn't mention anything about the difficulty.But and again because I want to make this quite clear, I know this isn't how the card currently is worded... But you could make the argument that if an effect changes the difficulty of an maneuver that change stays in effect regardless of any changes made to the dial. So the difficulty set by SoT supersedes the dial, and any maneuver picked is Red.This is something FFG could do in a FAQ, using the above reasoning. Doing so would then keep all past rulings in place.

Again, that would mean a damaged engine turns the entire dial red

Again, that would mean a damaged engine turns the entire dial red

No, because Damaged Engines only deal with a given maneuver type, namely the Turn.

Again, that would mean a damaged engine turns the entire dial red

No, because Damaged Engines only deal with a given maneuver type, namely the Turn.

I think his point was that you had engine damage, and choose a now red turn... While R2 can't turn that maneuver green, you could in theory change to say a straight maneuver and Damaged Engine would not also infect that with red either.

I would say that is the strongest reason why only the particular chosen move might be red.

Again, that would mean a damaged engine turns the entire dial red

No, because Damaged Engines only deal with a given maneuver type, namely the Turn.

You're making the fix way too hard. The solution is just to change "that maneuver is" to "all maneuvers are"

You're making the fix way too hard. The solution is just to change "that maneuver is" to "all maneuvers are"

The problem is that FFG hates making text changes to cards. They're FAR more likely to make some completely baseless left field ruling that makes no sense.

I think Vanor's mostly playing with his crystal ball here - not reading or interpreting the card, but guessing at what they'll do to fix it when they realize how crazy the combo is.

Again, that would mean a damaged engine turns the entire dial red

No, because Damaged Engines only deal with a given maneuver type, namely the Turn.

I think his point was that you had engine damage, and choose a now red turn... While R2 can't turn that maneuver green, you could in theory change to say a straight maneuver and Damaged Engine would not also infect that with red either.

I would say that is the strongest reason why only the particular chosen move might be red.

It more simplistic than that. Nav let's you avoid negative effects of SoT by rotating your dial to something that's not effected. The same way choosing a non turn lets you avoid a negative effect of engine damage by choosing a maneuver that isn't red. It's the exact same method of avoiding bad stuff, shouldn't the FAQ penalty he describes apply to both?

It's just a really bad, convoluted solution to a simple problem. Assuming you believe it's a problem.

First there was Vorthos, then there was Spike, and now, at long last, Johnny has entered the fray. Welcome, Johnny. You've been sorely missed.

you could in theory change to say a straight maneuver and Damaged Engine might not also infect that with red either.

I get that. Lets say in theory you have a ship with both a crew slot and a astromech slot, and have a damaged engine crit.

If you do a 2 turn, damage engine makes the difficulty red. R2 wouldn't change it to Green, because the FAQ says so, and lets be honest there's really no justification in that FAQ for why R2 works that way. If however you used Navigator to turn it into a bank it would no longer be red, it would be what ever color shows on the dial.

But if you used Navigator to turn that 1 turn into a 3 turn, it would still be red. Because Damaged Engines only causes Turns to be red. In theory, SoT could work in a similar manner but effect all maneuvers.

I think Vanor's mostly playing with his crystal ball here - not reading or interpreting the card, but guessing at what they'll do to fix it when they realize how crazy the combo is.

Very much so.

[ Assuming you believe it's a problem.

I think there might be a problem but at worst is it's no more one then Whisper+ACD is.

You're making the fix way too hard. The solution is just to change "that maneuver is" to "all maneuvers are"

The problem is that FFG hates making text changes to cards. They're FAR more likely to make some completely baseless left field ruling that makes no sense.

I think Vanor's mostly playing with his crystal ball here - not reading or interpreting the card, but guessing at what they'll do to fix it when they realize how crazy the combo is.

Sure, but modifying the core rules can have a lot more unintended consequences. I haven't seen them do that for anything aside from maybe AS + cloak to cloak and decloak. The FAQ has managed vague or confusing terminology. There is nothing vague about this. That would be an errata change.

Not that I think they didn't test this and are fine with it.