I don't think that the navigator + stay on target works as you think it does.

Both have the same wording:

"When you reveal a maneuver, you may rotate your dial to another maneuver with the same bearing."

“When you reveal a maneuver, you may rotate your dial to another maneuver with the same speed. Treat that maneuver as a red maneuver.”

which you can translate as:

"When you reveal a maneuver, you may rotate your dial to another maneuver with the same bearing (as the revealed maneuver)."

“When you reveal a maneuver, you may rotate your dial to another maneuver with the same speed (as the revealed maneuver). Treat that maneuver as a red maneuver.”

You may use navigator after stay on target but the reference maneuver that triggered its use stays the same.

So with navigator + stay on target you may rotate your dial to another maneuver with the same bearing or the same speed, which is already powerful, but it's not exactly chose you maneuver on activation.

Your translation is putting in a defining descriptor that is not there.

While I don't necessarily disagree, I would note that in most other cases where 2 things occur at the same time the player gets to choose order.

The most recent case of there being a defined limitation to actions/triggers that occur at the same time is the FAQ ruling on Advanced Sensors and Cloaking. While the reason/cause for the ruling is still a bit fuzzy, one word seems to define it, "immediately". Indicating that the presence of that word indicates special treatment or exception to "player chooses order" standard.

Since both those cards do not have the work "immediately" and I am not aware of any other order limitation to the specific "when you reveal a maneuver..." I would at this time rule that both are allowed in any order the player chooses...

I could see it ruled your way though...

Now the idea that using Stay on Target first then navigator to negate the red is interesting...if you need to go in the opposite direction...

After reading and rereading both navigator and Stay on target I get this picture. If you use both of them, in any order you can get anywhere on your dial, but your maneuver will still be treated as red, as Stay on target changes anything you do after using it to red, no matter what else you use after (negative beating positive). But it screams for FAQ,

Nah.

The exact wording of Stay on Target says you treat *that* maneuver as red.

That maneuver becomes red on the dial.

Then you trigger Navigator (or Boba) and rotate to a different maneuver - one which is not red.

There's no transference of red-ness taking place and no indication or wording that might suggest otherwise.

Which means any ship that can Navigate and Stay on Target can, if they plan properly, pick any maneuver of a different speed to the one on their dial and keep it green or red.

Why is the sky falling this time?

Really not as big a problem as some are making out. On most things it competing with other traits that are IMO better. I can't recall making a mistake that this could solve completely. I'm sticking with PtL and predator until I see stay on target owning everything ( I think I will be waiting a while ).

Will the next card released let you undo your action and then do 3 free actions in a row, but cost 2 squad points?

I don't know about the idea of changing things after the fact. That employed across a squad of 3 can make them literally untouchable. Even the worst flier would be able to double back and change their movements to where they go into primo positionings for shooting.

Stay on Target+Navigator works, because of the FAQ rule that states that effects that occur at the same time can occur in any order.

I am thinking, however, that the Stayvigated (I know, but worth a try) maneuver will always be red, for the same reason that the R2 Astromech cannot reduce the difficulty of a Stay on Target maneuver change. Any effect that increases the difficulty of a maneuver always takes precedence over one that reduces it.

Also, the sky is not falling here, as usual. It is a GOOD card. It is a CHEAP card. But, as some have said already, to make it at all reliable, you are looking at buying ships that are at least PS7. Doing so will likely often limit your list to 3 ships or less, which has always been a weak approach when there are Falcons, Firesprays, and TIE Swarms everywhere. You are taking a positioning advantage and likely sacrificing another 3 dice attack because your pilots are so expensive, particularly ones that synergize well like Keyan Farlander or MAYBE even Soontir. Just a thought. Cards like this are similar to cards like Howlrunner, IMO. She doesn't need a cost reduction because you have to spend so many MORE points to make her ability worthwhile. The same applies here. Especially if you run multiple ships with Stay on Target, you will inevitably end up with a small list, or if you don't, a list that likely could have made better use with another EPT.

Wow, another game wrecking change to the game I used to love.

The beauty of dogfighting is trying to outthink your opponent.

Now you don't need to bother, just pick a high PS ship and move where you want to after everyone else has! LMAO

From here on out it will only get worse.

And enjoy your lack of actions and imminent demise from just rolling focus results.

Stay on Target is an insurance card against lower PS ships. It's much worse than choosing the correct maneuver in the first place and denies you your EPT slot. It's useless against higher pilot skill too.

Any effect that increases the difficulty of a maneuver always takes precedence over one that reduces it.

It's not being reduced. Say you choose 2 straight. You Stay on Target to 2-turn which turns red. You then Navigator to 1-turn, which is still white. That's the problem: you can pick any maneuver you want when you move: as long as it isn't speed 2, it's not red.

After reading and rereading both navigator and Stay on target I get this picture. If you use both of them, in any order you can get anywhere on your dial, but your maneuver will still be treated as red, as Stay on target changes anything you do after using it to red, no matter what else you use after (negative beating positive). But it screams for FAQ,

Nah.

The exact wording of Stay on Target says you treat *that* maneuver as red.

That maneuver becomes red on the dial.

Then you trigger Navigator (or Boba) and rotate to a different maneuver - one which is not red.

There's no transference of red-ness taking place and no indication or wording that might suggest otherwise.

Which means any ship that can Navigate and Stay on Target can, if they plan properly, pick any maneuver of a different speed to the one on their dial and keep it green or red.

Seems so.

At the cost of 5 points and 2 slots.

and it really only works if their Pilot Skill is higher than the competition - which it may or may not be, given the fact that you can't get V.I.

Which means any ship that can Navigate and Stay on Target can, if they plan properly, pick any maneuver of a different speed to the one on their dial and keep it green or red.

Yes. But only if it has both a crew slot and an elite pilot talent slot.

Which means:

• Named YT-1300s and YT-2400s, who have a R3 turret and therefore aren't generally caught out of position
• Boba Fett - who could already do this
• Kath Scarlett (whose pilot skill is merely 'okay' and won't benefit too much)
• Named Phantoms - whose decloaking manouvre is largely this but better
• B-wing/E2s - who have to pay extra points because they need an upgrade to get the crew slot

I imagine we'll find B-wings best suited to capitalising on Stay on Target, if only because at speed '2' they have all five forward manouvres plus a koiogran. I don't think they really need the speed change of navigator as well, though, given that it'll cost an extra four points.

Stay on Target+Navigator works, because of the FAQ rule that states that effects that occur at the same time can occur in any order.

I am thinking, however, that the Stayvigated (I know, but worth a try) maneuver will always be red, for the same reason that the R2 Astromech cannot reduce the difficulty of a Stay on Target maneuver change. Any effect that increases the difficulty of a maneuver always takes precedence over one that reduces it.

The wording of Stay on Target rules this out.

It specifically says *that* maneuver. The one maneuver you to rotate with Stay on Target becomes red and stays red.

The others on your dial do not.

After Stay on Target has resolved, you can trigger Navigator to rotate to one of those other maneuvers. Could be red. Could be white. Could be green. Doesn't matter, because Stay on Target has already resolved - it has nothing to do with the Navigator activation.

Magnus, you forgot Named HWK and Decimators

This card seems almost gamebreaking to me. Why bother doing maneuver dials in secret anymore? If anything this will force people into using MORE turret-based ships. Y-Wings with Ion Canons are never going to go away.... ughhh

I really like this card. Finally something to help the higher PS for movement. It always bugged me that the supposedly better pilots could (too) often be blocked by rookies. They should be able to make course corrections and get better positioning. It won't happen every round anyway because of the stress it generates. And the lower PS still have their best advantage: their numbers.

Indeed. 'Blocking' as a deliberate tactic always struck me as something which is an artefact of the rules and not right for a dogfight - in my head (and I realise it is only my opinion) a higher pilot skill should always be an advantage.

The card itself is fine. Making the manuever red is an effective drawback. It really doesn balance the card.

I just think the combo with Navigator, which is already synergystically powerful on an obnoxious level(as it destroys a key facet of the game), needs to be made to give stress.

It's not just the fact that people will be able to move wherever they want, it's what this will do to the game, in forcing everyone to play turrets. VT-49s, Falcons, and ships that give stress will be the new meta after this card comes out and that just feels like an entirely separate game.

IMO this card is also way too cheap. It should probably cost at least 5, if not 12.

The card itself is fine. Making the manuever red is an effective drawback. It really doesn balance the card.

I just think the combo with Navigator, which is already synergystically powerful on an obnoxious level(as it destroys a key facet of the game), needs to be made to give stress.

One could level the same complaint at the Falcon's turret

or at the TIE Phantom

yet, here we are.

There should be a way to abuse this with the enhanced scopes to block.

Indeed. 'Blocking' as a deliberate tactic always struck me as something which is an artefact of the rules and not right for a dogfight - in my head (and I realise it is only my opinion) a higher pilot skill should always be an advantage.

That was my first feeling about blocking as well, but then I came to see it as someone throwing himself in front of the enemy to shield a more valuable piece and the enemy having to veer wildly to not crash.

Will the next card released let you undo your action and then do 3 free actions in a row, but cost 2 squad points?

I don't know about the idea of changing things after the fact. That employed across a squad of 3 can make them literally untouchable. Even the worst flier would be able to double back and change their movements to where they go into primo positionings for shooting.

Against lower PS only, plus take stress, limiting them to green maneuvers (or staying stressed) and denying them their actions. Phantoms would have to part with both VI and that turn's ACD to do this. Stay on Target allows you to react to screwing up in predicting your opponent's lower PS ship's move, but at a hefty cost. Bear in mind next turn they can K and you can't, and they know it.

The only thing that worries me is Stayvigator, and FFG will no doubt FAQ that one to death (hopefully not killing Fettigator in the process).

While I don't necessarily disagree, I would note that in most other cases where 2 things occur at the same time the player gets to choose order.

I'm not trying to argue against that, it's clear cut in the FAQ:

"If a player has multiple effects that resolve at the same

time, can he resolve them in any order?

Yes"

I'm just saying that does not modify the trigger as you only reveal your dial once.

The sequence in my opinion:

Trigger : reveal dial with maneuver A speed A, Direction A:

- Stay on Target, change to maneuver B with speed A (same speed as trigger)

- Navigator, change to maneuver C with direction A (same direction as trigger)

But we'll see how the FAQ goes (if there is one), could probably go either way.

Wow, another game wrecking change to the game I used to love.

The beauty of dogfighting is trying to outthink your opponent.

Now you don't need to bother, just pick a high PS ship and move where you want to after everyone else has! LMAO

From here on out it will only get worse.

No need to be so negative. FFG has done well with creating a fun and balanced game. They just previewed this card so I HIGHLY doubt the majority of the people adding to this thread have done anything besides a practice game with it and a crap ton of thought-gaming.

If a child thinks about the boogeyman all day, when they go to bed they're going to see it everywhere. After a few nights of realizing that he isn't real, then they sleep soundly just like they had before they heard the story of the boogeyman.

Same thing here. People are getting bent out of shape over suppositions. Wait until the card is actually released for legal play and goes through 3 BIG tournaments. After that, if it is proving to wreak havoc without ANY counter, THEN should the discussion for "breaking the game" start.

If a card like this gets players of this game in such a knot, I daresay none of them should ever play the great game of Warmachine or Hordes, where everything breaks everything and every player goes into each game knowing the opponent could have something that completely obliterates their list, by design.

Guys and gals, this game isn't broken, and I doubt FFG will let one card take it there.

One interesting wrinkle is that this almost gives Leia a reason to exist.

The card itself is fine. Making the manuever red is an effective drawback. It really doesn balance the card.

I just think the combo with Navigator, which is already synergystically powerful on an obnoxious level(as it destroys a key facet of the game), needs to be made to give stress.

One could level the same complaint at the Falcon's turret

or at the TIE Phantom

yet, here we are.

I get that it only goes on a limited number of pilots. But that makes it all the worse, as those ships have access to the bestbuse of 5 points in the game. You can't predict where Han Solo is going to go beyond, He will never be where you want him to be. Ever. He's already the most accurate pilot in the game. Now he's got almost as much after the fact arc dodging capability as Whisper and none of the fragility.

There should be a way to abuse this with the enhanced scopes to block.

I'm not sure I follow your line of thinking here, why would you have to change your dial from what you originally set it to if you're the first one to move?

edit: Okay ya, I'm dumb, with Intel Agent.

The card itself is fine. Making the manuever red is an effective drawback. It really doesn balance the card.

I just think the combo with Navigator, which is already synergystically powerful on an obnoxious level(as it destroys a key facet of the game), needs to be made to give stress.

One could level the same complaint at the Falcon's turret

or at the TIE Phantom

yet, here we are.

They change it. The falcon obnoxiously so. The combo laughs at it and says, "Screw all your choices, they don't matter. That's too good. Not because it's broken as a good player will pick the right move anyway, but because it removes the need to make choices until later. The only choice is (Which number will I not be moving, 1 2 or 3. And that's too much. The Phantom is quite fun to play against. It adds prediction. The Falcon is so expensive for its firepower as to be balanced. But this. This is 5 points. The cost of Gunner, arguably the best upgrade in the game, and it is so much better. Yes it takes two upgrades, but I challenge you to find a better upgrade combo than this and Navigator for 5 points. It can't be done.

I get that it only goes on a limited number of pilots. But that makes it all the worse, as those ships have access to the bestbuse of 5 points in the game. You can't predict where Han Solo is going to go beyond, He will never be where you want him to be. Ever. He's already the most accurate pilot in the game. Now he's got almost as much after the fact arc dodging capability as Whisper and none of the fragility.

Bottom line is that it's necessary.

Nobody wants to fly against hordes of generic pilots anymore.

It's boring, and the only way to make it stop is to dramatically scale up the power of pilot skill.

I agree that it will be deeply unfortunate if this hurts the maneuvering mechanics which are the absolute heart and soul of this game, but I don't think it will be nearly as impactful as all that. This is just another, "zomg new card" panic attack. I think that far from reducing the importance of maneuver choices, this will increase the importance of those choices for most pilots most of the time.

If anything, the existence of the combo makes Veteran Instincts that much stronger.

There should be a way to abuse this with the enhanced scopes to block.

I'm not sure I follow your line of thinking here, why would you have to change your dial from what you originally set it to if you're the first one to move?