I don't like Nazis either... I wouldn't have lasted long considering my political leanings, Slavic ethnicity and sexuality either.

As a GM, I want to discuss how Imperial leanings would affect my upcoming AoR game, and what kind of things I should consider for a player with this background.

Have you considered pointing out that people like you would not last long under the Empire, and have him react accordingly?

I've tried to engage, I really have, but I'm getting flummoxed.

Engaging in prolonged discussion with ErikB is kind of like playing a game of Global Thermonuclear War.

The only winning move is not to play.

I just realised that according to my roleplaying preferences I must be bigot spanish inquisition anarcho-nazi pro-slavery cannibal mass murdering dark gods cultist supporting the tories.

It is roleplaying game. Game. Roles. Playing. For fun with friends. And I rather play intolerant evil guy, than be one.

Have you considered pointing out that people like you would not last long under the Empire, and have him react accordingly?

Donovan is probably right, but... one last time...

My friend knows my limits, and what I won't countenance. He's thinking about a character who was career military before the Jedi fiasco, one who feels strongly about the whole law and order thing, who is probably prepared to overlook a lot of the more questionable Imperial stuff. BUT he eventually hits a breaking point (I'm tempted to have him hail from Alderaan). He'll be joining the Alliance eventually, he just won't be happy about it.

(and as a matter of interest, I started wondering if an Imperial campaign would be possible, or desirable, because I think about this stuff as GM).

My friend wouldn't come up with a character who enjoys throwing bisexual half-Romanian liberals into ovens, because he probably guesses I might get a tad upset. And it's never a great idea to tick off the person who has the Beta book.

Consideration for the feelings of others. It's not hard really.

I mean, you mentioned 'Downfall' yourself, a film that openly has sympathy for the plight of the German people in the aftermath of WW2. That's pretty much precisely the kind of things I'm thinking about. Even Imperial Officers can have wives and kids and pets who aren't involved in the bad stuff. And who are not the 'bad guys', and so our plucky underdogs should be wary about blowing them up.

Yes, yes. No one can play an Empire character or Nazi without being a closet Nazi-lover. Those 501st cosplayers are evil, evil people. Ian Mckellen (Apt Pupil) is an evil man.

Erik you are just as extreme as the Nazis you describe. It is hilarious. Do you also believe the Flintstones was based on reality?

And Disney is not afraid of adult themes. They are responsible for many movies with adult themes by way of Touchstone and Hollywood Pictures Film studios. So please, Keep telling us what Disney will or will not do since you are such in the know, especially something so beneath the radar like an RPG.

STOP FEEDING THE GODDAMN TROLL, PEOPLE!

Baron Soontir Fel was an Imp officer and fighter pilot. (How many Rebels did he kill before joining up with the New Republic?)

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Baron Fel ever actually 'joined' the New Republic. Yes, he worked with them for some time, but very quickly returned to the Empire- or at least, the Empire of the Hand and remained there.

I guess there are perks to following Insane Troll Logic .

It seems a bit more like the Chewbacca Defense to me, though there are multiple ways of looking at these sorts of things. And of course, if you disagree with me, you're a Nazi.

I mean, you mentioned 'Downfall' yourself, a film that openly has sympathy for the plight of the German people in the aftermath of WW2. That's pretty much precisely the kind of things I'm thinking about. Even Imperial Officers can have wives and kids and pets who aren't involved in the bad stuff. And who are not the 'bad guys', and so our plucky underdogs should be wary about blowing them up.

I think the mistake most people make when dealing with this forum's little "issue" ad nauseum is that most people presume (at least initially) that the one presenting the views is, if not rational, at least open for discussion. This simply isn't the case, which unfortunately means that the purveyor of this point of view is either being disingenuous (and a troll) or lacks the mental faculties to consider or even understand another point of view (perhaps suffering from Autism). I mention this not to name-call or slander (libel, I guess, since this is print), but to point out that without knowing who is at the originating end of the vitriol, there's no way for us to know. My personal theory is that he's just bitter that his home-made Stormtrooper armor wasn't good enough to get him into the local chapter of the 501st Legion and now it's just sour grapes.

For this reason, I humbly suggest to you (and anyone else reading this) that rather than trying to engage, (and risk hijacking the threads) we simply ignore those offending posts, and encourage others who aren't as familiar with this board's culture to do the same. Let's not allow one or two abraisive individuals to reflect poorly on our entire community.

(Long, rhetorical rant to follow: )

I made a rather long-winded and very tongue-in-cheek post here to point out some of the ridiculousness of making absolutist real-world comparisons to Star Wars by pointing out that depending on how you looked at it, the Allies of World War Two resembled the Galactic Empire in word and deed a lot more than people give them credit for.

The great irony of all of this is that the spiteful demand that we associate National Socialism with all things Empire is quite authoritarian, and when the word "German" starts getting thrown around in the context of "killing Nazis," the implications reveal some (at the very least) borderline racist tendencies. Nazi is not a synonym for German, and it wasn't even during the Second World War. If the biggest issue you have with portraying evil people as they were and not as ridiculous caricatures is that it makes it harder for you to get off to violent revenge fantasies, then the problem isn't with people who seek to understand history, the problem is with the person who seeks to dehumanize other people.

And, contrary to what some would have you believe, even Nazis were human beings. Vast numbers of German soldiers during that period were conscripts. And even hardened members of the Nazi Party were married, had children, had mothers. For all of the evil they were responsible for, there was nothing intrinsic within them that made them more capable of evil than anyone else. The refusal of some to even acknowledge those who subscribed to that ideology as human beings exposes a dangerous line of thinking.

You cannot assume that people commit evil acts for the sake of committing evil acts. Therefore, there has to be some reason why people believed that those evil acts were either necessary or right. If exploring the Banality of Evil allows you to create tragic heroes and more realistic villains, then what is wrong with that? If it helps us to understand how not to repeat those mistakes by the understanding that we are not so different, then so much the better!

Finally, though it hasn't been outright stated in this thread, the previous assertions that those who like the Empire are closeted (or open) Nazi sympathizers is sadly ironic. If you associate the charity acts of the 501st Legion (of which I am a member, full disclosure) with National Socialism simply because they're wearing white armor, then you not only taint those acts of kindness, but you paint National Socialism in a much nicer light.

Edit: That's right. Those Make-A-Wish kids whose eyes light up with excitement when Darth Vader and his cadre of stormtroopers visit them in the hospital? They're Nazi sympathizers.

Meandering back on topic, your comment about Der Untergang reminded me of something: if you enjoy a decent German language film, I'd highly recommend Das Leben Los Anderen . (The Lives of Others) It explores the thoughts and motivations of a character who is increasingly subversive to the DDR, and the Stasi agent sent to spy on him. Without giving the movie away, I think the Stasi agent in the film is a very viable example of how one could play a "not-evil" Imperial who never actually defected to the Rebellion.

My friend knows my limits, and what I won't countenance. He's thinking about a character who was career military before the Jedi fiasco, one who feels strongly about the whole law and order thing, who is probably prepared to overlook a lot of the more questionable Imperial stuff. BUT he eventually hits a breaking point (I'm tempted to have him hail from Alderaan). He'll be joining the Alliance eventually, he just won't be happy about it.

And that is fine. You keep having his character ordered to do more and more loathsome things until he either decides enough is enough and defects or it becomes apparent he is a total shithead after all.

I really don't have a problem with that.

Finally, though it hasn't been outright stated in this thread, the previous assertions that those who like the Empire are closeted (or open) Nazi sympathizers

So you don't like Nazis, you just think they have a bad rep?

If you feel that Nazis have been unfairly represented in the media I would suggest that Star Wars may not be the right medium through which to make that argument.

Do note I don't think this makes you a bad person, but 'I am not a Nazi apologist, I just think Nazis were not as bad as people make out' is a... thing. Yknow?

If you don't have a problem with starting a character in their Imperial days, then why would you constantly act like you do? Playing someone in their days before defecting to the Rebellion isn't somehow "less Imperial", and as I mentioned before, there's plenty of background for having characters who were "deep cover stay-behinds" without ever 'defecting to the Rebellion' in the way that we usually think of it; for example, the Star Destroyer cook who used whatever chances he could to warn Rebel agents, or the Rebel-sympathizing starport controller who would let Rebel starships slip through security.

(Hell, one of the Cracken's Rebel Operatives roster was specifically told by Han Solo that he'd do the Rebellion more good by staying with the Empire than by "open" rebellion.)

If the biggest issue you have with portraying evil people as they were and not as ridiculous caricatures is that it makes it harder for you to get off to violent revenge fantasies, then the problem isn't with people who seek to understand history, the problem is with the person who seeks to dehumanize other people.

This is my biggest problem with the idea of Star Wars as fable... to hell with fables .

If you don't have a problem with starting a character in their Imperial days, then why would you constantly act like you do?

I don't. A character who doesn't realise they are a rebel yet is still a rebel.

I think there is a clear difference between showing why while it might seem like a good idea at the time to support the Empire in the fullness of time that support is a mistake, and showing why it is a good idea to support the Empire.

Is there anyone. ANYONE with any **** enthusiasm for playing the setting straight?

I've been playing this game for nearly three decades now (wow, what a depressing thought) and I've done my fair share of straight out Rebels versus Empire. But there's only so many different ways that you can attack the second death star, be at the Battle of Hoth, rescue Ackbar and the Shantipole project, steal X-Wings, blow up imperial bases and save the rebellion. This is a serious case of Been There, Done That - it's a well traveled road by now.

That's why I'm eager to try new things. I'd like to play an Old Republic game set during the Sith cold war where everyone (it seems) has a lightsaber. I'd like to play a someone with sympathies to the Empire. I'd like to play an all starfighter game, or an all bounty hunter game - something that's new and fresh instead of the boring old "Gee, the battle of Hoth again?" rebel game.

And with a universe as vast as Star Wars should be, I don't see why all play styles should be supported..

Meandering back on topic, your comment about Der Untergang reminded me of something: if you enjoy a decent German language film, I'd highly recommend Das Leben Los Anderen . (The Lives of Others) It explores the thoughts and motivations of a character who is increasingly subversive to the DDR, and the Stasi agent sent to spy on him. Without giving the movie away, I think the Stasi agent in the film is a very viable example of how one could play a "not-evil" Imperial who never actually defected to the Rebellion.

Actually, you should just watch it because it's a goddamned great flick. . . . .

Whioops - disregard.

ErikB, statements like " You don't need to be nice to the bad guys " actually discredit the speaker in my eyes.

Very true, and well-said.

I think the SW heroes did occasionally punch a stormtrooper, if my memory serves, so a steel chair isn't too unbelievable

Truthbetold, I believe that between AoR and EotE you've got more than enough content for any "basic" Rebel or "Imperial military" roster. EotE has the lower-ranked "workhorses", and for statting Imps who aren't military (i.e. Army, Navy, Stormtrooper Corps) some of the non-Imperial Adversaries such as spaceport security or even the lower-level Imps (i.e. naval troopers and officers) can be repurposed as Imperial Customs forces, although for the starships I've already tried converting/translating some "Imperial Customs" starships from D6 and Saga for this purpose, i.e. the Customs Frigate, the Light Corvette, the Guardian -class "light cruiser" (though the D6 books Star Wars Adventure Journal 4 and Operation: Elrood mention a Bayonet -class and a Warden -class as well) and the IPV-1 System Patrol Craft.

ErikB, statements like " You don't need to be nice to the bad guys " actually discredit the speaker in my eyes.

So say something nice about the Rebel Alliance?

For the record, please state if you would prefer to play a stormtrooper or a rebel.

Then again, considering that the WEG lore happened to more clearly delineate between the Army and the Stormtrooper Corps, I'm perfectly happy to have "easily knocked over mooks" players... they're just Imperial Army (or Navy troopers, or Customs forces), not stormtroopers.

Or, in this situation, do you imagine yourself playing a Stormtrooper, an Imperial Army guy or a Rebel?

--

Hell, I'll answer. Whenever you see someone complain that the Empire are either too evil or not awesome enough, it will not be because they think it will make playing a rebel better, but because they want to play an Imperial.

Actually, you should just watch it because it's a goddamned great flick. . . . .

That too. Since Maelora was talking about how she was still interested in running a "traditional" Rebel-centric game, but still have believable Imperial villains, I thought it would be interesting if a Gerd Wiesler type NPC were tasked with monitoring or even obstructing the player characters.

Also, I made a mistake in the original post. The German title of the movie is Das Leben der Anderen , not los Anderen. Sorry about that.

So how do we go about doing this properly?

Off the top of my head I was thinking about having the players design their characters using both edge and age of rebellion and explain their background is Imperial based maybe throw in some Separatists or whatever they fancy.

Have their initial base be say a Victory Class 2 Star Destroyer and explain this as being part of the Death Star Support Fleet.

They start their story having been present at the destruction of Alderaan, however unlike the movie the reaction on the Empire's side is far from what Tarkin believed.

A couple of the ships broke ranks following the destruction trying to either rescue anyone left stranded in the rubble or forced to fight against the Commander whose blind obedience to the Tarkin doctrine mirrors the starting behaviour of a certain character at the start of Farscape, however whilst the Death Star moved on in pursuit of the Millennium Falcon the rebelling ships are engaged by a sortie left behind explaining why the Death Star didn't send out its support fleet as well as its fighters.

However for the players they end up on one of the few surviving ships that escaped the resulting carnage however they've ended up recruited as the command crew for the Star Destroyer as they attempt to safely evacuate whatever survivors they can find which include stranded ships unable to reach another system as anything that could be used in the Alderaan system has been destroyed by an overzealous Commander and zealot follower of Tarkin's doctrine.

It doesn't matter if they're imperial or rebel because they're now fighting for survival against an unrelenting foe who threatens everybody and the only force that stands against this Commander and his three warships and TIE fighter squadrons is an aging Victory class star destroyer and the odd half dozen or so surviving freighters and transports most of which are overcrowded with survivors.

Would this work for your Imperial style game?

It doesn't matter if they're imperial or rebel

I would suggest that after such treason your characters options are to submit to Imperial justice and hope they are in a sufficiently merciful mood that the punishment is only death by firing squad (for you and not all your friends and relatives)* or to commit to the Alliance...

*probably unlikely, given that the mutiny led directly to the personal humiliation of Vader and The Emperor with the destruction of the Death Star at Yavin**

**After being informed of the destruction of the Death Star, Prince Xisor permitted himself to be seen to smile slightly. Since the Emperor needed his support to hold the Empire together after such a massive defeat he had to let the dis slide. The anger was, however, taken out on other people***.

***Indeed, after the mutiny at Alderan, the Empire began a massive purge to root out those who, like the traitors who stabbed the Empire in the back in its moment of triumph, were deemed to have insufficient commitment to the New Order.

That too. Since Maelora was talking about how she was still interested in running a "traditional" Rebel-centric game, but still have believable Imperial villains, I thought it would be interesting if a Gerd Wiesler type NPC were tasked with monitoring or even obstructing the player characters.

Yes, that's precisely the kind of thing I was looking for. Thank you.

They will have some foes who live up (down?) to the stereotype, but others will be adversaries who are not monsters.

It doesn't matter if they're imperial or rebel because they're now fighting for survival against an unrelenting foe who threatens everybody and the only force that stands against this Commander and his three warships and TIE fighter squadrons is an aging Victory class star destroyer and the odd half dozen or so surviving freighters and transports most of which are overcrowded with survivors.

Would this work for your Imperial style game?

Yes, that's an excellent idea, thank you. I knew I would use some variant of the 'Enemy Mine' situation.

The 'Imperial Campaign' concept is just hypothesis at this stage, the kind of thing I think about as a GM. But one of the AoR characters is going to have an Imperial history, so I'm helping him work that into the ongoing story. And these concepts are ideal.

Well then watch out forums, you got some space nazis in your midst I guess, because me and mine, as well I'm sure many others, will be playing an Imperial campaign bent on crushing the terroristic rebellion.

Coming soon to a planet near you,

Hide yo kids, hide yo wife,

It's space nazis time.

Well then watch out forums, you got some space nazis in your midst I guess, because me and mine, as well I'm sure many others, will be playing an Imperial campaign bent on crushing the terroristic rebellion.

And fair enough, but do try to bear in mind that that isn't what this game is about and may well be something that FFG can't do even if they wanted to.

In particular, before requesting uber stormtroopers or TIE Defenders that can easily dominate entire squadrons of rebel fighters, try to take a moment to consider that the idea is they will be shooting AT the PCs!

Well then watch out forums, you got some space nazis in your midst I guess, because me and mine, as well I'm sure many others, will be playing an Imperial campaign bent on crushing the terroristic rebellion.

And fair enough, but do try to bear in mind that that isn't what this game is about and may well be something that FFG can't do even if they wanted to.

In particular, before requesting uber stormtroopers or TIE Defenders that can easily dominate entire squadrons of rebel fighters, try to take a moment to consider that the idea is they will be shooting AT the PCs!

I try not to force my PCs in to any predefined stereotypes or expectations, because that may just end up with people feeling that they can't play their desired scene.

If they want to play rebels fighting the Empire, so be it. Imperials who defect to the rebellion? Cool. Imperials who are out to crush the rebels? Ok too.

I absolutely think they should add in the information for TIE Defenders, but GMs should know before throwing them into battle that they are very deadly. I also think Stormtroopers as is are fine. If a GM disagrees, they can buff them up, but as they stand I think they work for their purpose.

I don't want to ruin the game for anyone but I've been reading through the d6 version of the rebel alliance sourcebook and it struck me that the rebel group listed in there needs very little done to turn them from the Rebel Alliance we've seen in the movies into an actual terrorist group.

So assuming your group wants to play Imperials it doesn't take much to set up a rogue group of Rebels who are exactly what the Empire describes, its only later on as your game progresses that you reveal that these are a minority and their Empire is far from the benevolent protector its supposed to be.

I always wondered why Palpatine was so xenophobic as the prequels all demonstrated he was more than capable of manipulating them and it felt strange that once he was in charge he made a complete fumble from that point on.

Now what if Palpatine was innocent and that he was just possessed by Darth Sidious as the final stage of his plan, the Anakin we saw at the end of Revenge of the Sith is actually a clone formed from the hand he lost as the end of Attack of the Clones and Kenobi did kill who he thought was Anakin and the true Anakin is locked in that suit to hide the true duplicity and is led to believe Obi-Wan killed Padme...

A bit of facial reconstruction and the use of Sith Alchemy to reinforce his turn to the Darkside and then set him loose explaining the Jedi made a failed coup attempt and are out there preparing the next wave of attacks and need to be stopped of course he could bring them in for questioning...

Ooh you realise that hand Anakin lost would be a great way to have Darth Vader turn up again in the next trilogy, don't you?!

Sorry wrong thread but still if they could do that to Luke's lost hand...

I don't want to ruin the game for anyone but I've been reading through the d6 version of the rebel alliance sourcebook and it struck me that the rebel group listed in there needs very little done to turn them from the Rebel Alliance we've seen in the movies into an actual terrorist group.

Yes. And given that that would ruin the game for people, given that Terrorists are up there with Nazis as being the least popular people in the world, and after examining this report in Variety about Disneys plans for Star Wars:-

http://variety.com/2013/biz/news/star-wars-skys-the-limit-for-disney-when-it-comes-to-opportunities-1200609291/

Not that Disney had any reason to be concerned over its $4 billion purchase of Lucasfilm, but “of all our worries, ‘Star Wars’ is not one of them,” said Walt Disney Co. chief financial officer Jay Rasulo at an investor conference on Thursday.

During a presentation of the Mouse House’s assets at the Bank of America Merrill Lynch Media, Communications & Entertainment Conference, in Beverly Hills, Rasulo said “the market is extremely hot for everything ‘Star Wars.’”

He called the franchise an “evergreen property” that continues to mint money through licensing deals, and had the potential to become even more valuable with the right deals.

When asked if Disney was worried that today’s kids may not be familiar with the films, Rasulo touted the strong sales of toys — the brand continues to prove one of the top franchises in terms of licensing revenue each year.

“This is not a new franchise for kids,” Rasulo said.

But there’s still room for growth. Disney purchased Lucasfilm late last year as a way to cash in on the ongoing appeal of the 35-year-old “Star Wars” franchise and grow the brand in new ways around the world.

“The sky’s the limit,” Rasulo said of the potential for the sci-fi franchise, including expanding its presence in the company’s theme parks. “There’s incredible flexibility. It’s an unbelievable palette to create from.”

Rasulo said Disney’s in-house licensing and consumer products group would devote the next year on brokering deals around the world to expand the reach of the “Star Wars” brand.

Given its much smaller size, Lucasfilm had focused primarily on U.S.-based licensing programs and then on toys and a few other categories. But Disney plans to expand broaden it into housewares and other merchandise categories the way it’s increased the vast variety of products that feature Marvel’s superheroes.

“We will lay the groundwork for that … and when the film comes out in 2015, we’ll be ready to blow it out,” Rasulo said.

The overall strategy is “to put out a great film” first, Rasulo said.

As Disney has often stated before, Pixar, Marvel and Lucasfilm pics, as well as Disney branded animated and live action films, will make up a majority of the studio’s slate.

Rasulo also noted that one “Star Wars” trilogy film or “origin story film” would also appear on the release schedule each year, starting with the seventh installment in the “Star Wars” saga that J.J. Abrams will direct and Disney releases in 2015.

The exec cautioned that after the disappointing box office performance of “The Lone Ranger” this summer, “there needs to be a cap on (budgets of) tentpole franchise movies.” “Going forward, we will see a cap on spending on those movies,” he said.

Rasulo said Disney has no plans as of yet to make other high-profile acquisitions the way it picked up Lucasfilm.

“We are not in a position today where we feel there’s a necessity to buy something, Rasulo said. “We don’t feel like there are holes that there are out there we’re trying to fill.”

But the executive still kept Disney’s doors open to the possibility for a purchase, should the right deal come along.

“We demonstrated we remain extremely opportunistic in things that might show up that demonstrate to us that it’s a way to accelerate ourselves in a marketplace where we feel consumers live or consumers will live in the future,” citing acquisitions of Playdom and India’s UTV in the past.

Instead, Rasulo said Disney intends to use its cash to buy back the company’s stock, spending around $6 billion, and as much as $8 billion, during its fiscal 2014 year. That’s up from $4 billion over the last couple of years.

Disney’s stock was lifted on the news, up $1.55 to close at $65.49, a gain of 2.4%

You surely, SURELY see why Disney would be very wary about having their $4 billion acquisition become associated with being either Nazi or Al-Qeada propaganda.

You can then surely, SURELY see why they are likely to do everything they can to assure people that the Rebel Alliance is not a terrorist organisation.

People do get that right? Disney are not going to torpedo their multi billion dollar investment by inviting this kind of argument?