Funny thing is, copperball, the Tapani sourcebooks mention such an "anti-Imperial terrorist group", but they're not Alliance . ;-) WOTC's Revised-d20 "Dark Forces Saga" write-ups included a mention that Jan Ors (the namesake of the group's initials) was brought into the group but left it.

Look, assuming for a moment I am right and that having the Empire as anything other than villains is off the table for as long as Disney own the franchise, is there anything that can be done for people disappointed by that to make playing Rebels more appealing?

I don't think Disney are going to do Star Wars versions of Inglourious Basterds or something as visceral as the open scene of Saving Private Ryan either, but I think people might find that entertaining to do themselves without being too disruptive of the straight setting.

is there anything that can be done for people disappointed by that to make playing Rebels more appealing?

For starters, you could stop making the Rebels come off as such larger-than-life propaganda figures as to break suspension of disbelief and yourself making the Imperials sympathetic -- by coming off as more "actual people" than the Rebels -- by comparison whenever you do that... I for one would prefer to have sympathetic Rebels after all.

For starters, you could stop making the Rebels come off as such larger-than-life propaganda figures as to break suspension of disbelief

You, er, have seen Star Wars right?

And hell, it isn't like things like Nazi Germany, Cambodia under the Khemer Rouge, Stalinist Russia, the Rwandan genocide or the breakup of Yugoslavia didn't happen. I don't see why the Empire being either nasty or not particularly competent is in any way unlikely.

While the Rebel Alliance are such a gleaming example of effectiveness and benevolence that even humans in the far future in a distant galaxy are still telling their story as an example to live up to.

My point is that the Rebel Alliance we're familiar with aren't these other organisations, it took Mon Montha holding talks and then a great deal of time and work to turn this all around.

As far as having an Imperial game that doesn't turn into a Sith game (and yes I've heard that one all too many times there's even an actual play back from Saga dealing with that particular concept) I was more wondering how the Imperial remaint was founded.

After all at some point its going to be clear to those Imperials who aren't actual monsters that their only hope of perpetuating their legacy is to separate from the part that's been corrupted.

The fact that would also involve the Chiss is a bonus as far as I'm concerned!

copperbell, the Remnant was essentially founded by assassination: namely, the assassination of thirteen gathered warlords by Admiral Daala and de facto assumption of control (with Vice Admiral Pellaeon) over the warlords' Deep Core forces in the novel; after the assault on Yavin 4 didn't pan out, she resigned in favor of Pellaeon -- all of the above occurs in the novel Darksaber -- who moved what forces he could out of there while absorbing further-Rimward entities such as the Pentastar Alignment to form the Imperial Remnant.

(Interestingly enough, Wookieepedia's article on the Imperial Ruling Council -- though before Endor they were more known as the "Emperor's Inner Circle" or "Imperial Inner Circle", Ruling is a post-Endor name -- mentions that " For many years, it had been widely believed that Palpatine had withdrawn into reclusive seclusion, ceding effective control of the Empire to his intimates—and this was only half a lie ." A creative GM could make for quite some EotE/AoR-period political intriguing with that sentence...)

Speaking of the Pentastar Alignment, its eventually leader was none other than Grand Moff Ardus Kaine -- a New Order ideologue and Grand Moff Tarkin's successor as Grand Moff of Oversector Outer. Thing is, he was actually at least somewhat bitter about having been 'relegated' out to the Core Worlds instead of by the Emperor's side on Imperial Center... again, I imagine that an enterprising GM could make quite a bit of EotE/AoR-period hay out of this.

I don't want to ruin the game for anyone but I've been reading through the d6 version of the rebel alliance sourcebook and it struck me that the rebel group listed in there needs very little done to turn them from the Rebel Alliance we've seen in the movies into an actual terrorist group.

Yes. And given that that would ruin the game for people, given that Terrorists are up there with Nazis as being the least popular people in the world, and after examining this report in Variety about Disneys plans for Star Wars:-

http://variety.com/2013/biz/news/star-wars-skys-the-limit-for-disney-when-it-comes-to-opportunities-1200609291/

Not that Disney had any reason to be concerned over its $4 billion purchase of Lucasfilm, but “of all our worries, ‘Star Wars’ is not one of them,” said Walt Disney Co. chief financial officer Jay Rasulo at an investor conference on Thursday.

During a presentation of the Mouse House’s assets at the Bank of America Merrill Lynch Media, Communications & Entertainment Conference, in Beverly Hills, Rasulo said “the market is extremely hot for everything ‘Star Wars.’”

He called the franchise an “evergreen property” that continues to mint money through licensing deals, and had the potential to become even more valuable with the right deals.

When asked if Disney was worried that today’s kids may not be familiar with the films, Rasulo touted the strong sales of toys — the brand continues to prove one of the top franchises in terms of licensing revenue each year.

“This is not a new franchise for kids,” Rasulo said.

But there’s still room for growth. Disney purchased Lucasfilm late last year as a way to cash in on the ongoing appeal of the 35-year-old “Star Wars” franchise and grow the brand in new ways around the world.

“The sky’s the limit,” Rasulo said of the potential for the sci-fi franchise, including expanding its presence in the company’s theme parks. “There’s incredible flexibility. It’s an unbelievable palette to create from.”

Rasulo said Disney’s in-house licensing and consumer products group would devote the next year on brokering deals around the world to expand the reach of the “Star Wars” brand.

Given its much smaller size, Lucasfilm had focused primarily on U.S.-based licensing programs and then on toys and a few other categories. But Disney plans to expand broaden it into housewares and other merchandise categories the way it’s increased the vast variety of products that feature Marvel’s superheroes.

“We will lay the groundwork for that … and when the film comes out in 2015, we’ll be ready to blow it out,” Rasulo said.

The overall strategy is “to put out a great film” first, Rasulo said.

As Disney has often stated before, Pixar, Marvel and Lucasfilm pics, as well as Disney branded animated and live action films, will make up a majority of the studio’s slate.

Rasulo also noted that one “Star Wars” trilogy film or “origin story film” would also appear on the release schedule each year, starting with the seventh installment in the “Star Wars” saga that J.J. Abrams will direct and Disney releases in 2015.

The exec cautioned that after the disappointing box office performance of “The Lone Ranger” this summer, “there needs to be a cap on (budgets of) tentpole franchise movies.” “Going forward, we will see a cap on spending on those movies,” he said.

Rasulo said Disney has no plans as of yet to make other high-profile acquisitions the way it picked up Lucasfilm.

“We are not in a position today where we feel there’s a necessity to buy something, Rasulo said. “We don’t feel like there are holes that there are out there we’re trying to fill.”

But the executive still kept Disney’s doors open to the possibility for a purchase, should the right deal come along.

“We demonstrated we remain extremely opportunistic in things that might show up that demonstrate to us that it’s a way to accelerate ourselves in a marketplace where we feel consumers live or consumers will live in the future,” citing acquisitions of Playdom and India’s UTV in the past.

Instead, Rasulo said Disney intends to use its cash to buy back the company’s stock, spending around $6 billion, and as much as $8 billion, during its fiscal 2014 year. That’s up from $4 billion over the last couple of years.

Disney’s stock was lifted on the news, up $1.55 to close at $65.49, a gain of 2.4%

You surely, SURELY see why Disney would be very wary about having their $4 billion acquisition become associated with being either Nazi or Al-Qeada propaganda.

You can then surely, SURELY see why they are likely to do everything they can to assure people that the Rebel Alliance is not a terrorist organisation.

People do get that right? Disney are not going to torpedo their multi billion dollar investment by inviting this kind of argument?

Erik:

I couldn't give 2 rats' a***s how Disney or FFG wants me to play this game. Why is "how the owning company" feels of such great import to you? I bought the game. It's my world now.

And let me go here: America is viewed by many around the globe to be the modern equivalent of the Empire. We bomb people, we subjugate and force our ways on people. We overthrow regimes and put our own people in power and we remove them when they no longer play nice. We use our military as a weapon of fear and to project political power and sway. And I say WE because I'm American too, just so happens I have my eyes open to the reality of the situation.

You might say that's in the interest of national defense . Sounds a lot like what Palpatine would say, to me.

" For the safety of this Galactic Empire, that world had to be bombarded, invaded, and their rulers disposed of. I have set up a new system of regional moffs in their place. Imperial order will be known in their lifetimes."

" Due to concerns over national security and the threat of WMDs, Iraq had to be bombarded, invaded, and their ruler disposed of. We have set up a new system of leaders in Saddam's place. Democracy will be known in the Iraqi peoples' lifetimes."

So perhaps Lucas' #1 bad guy of all time growing up were the nazis. It was about the right time. However the Empire is far more than JUST the nazis. It is any government or ruling empire that uses an iron fist approach to get what it wants. It is any government that sacrifices personal freedoms for security.

[almost forgot my closing reasoning!]

AND YET! Millions of AMERICANS feel that what we're doing is "right" for this reason or that reason. MILLIONS of Americans serve in the military and in the government and are PROUD of their country and believe in what we do -- EVEN the bombing and crushing of countries. EVEN the getting involved in supporting "rebels" in other countries. Do these supporters of this "evil empire" have families? Do they have lives? Are they themselves monsters just because their leaders are greedy and seek power? Or, perhaps, do they go home to a wife and children? Do they complain about rent or the price of food? Do they go visit their mothers and fathers during a holiday? And perhaps they truly believe that if they don't crush Iraq, Iraq will continue to fund terrorists who hate them, want to blow them up, and want to cut their heads off just for being American?

So there are always two sides to a coin, and painting one side GOOD and one side BAD is not only foolish, because it is not based in reality, but it's also intellectually dishonest and lazy.

I couldn't give 2 rats' a***s how Disney or FFG wants me to play this game.

And fair enough, but do try to bear in mind their objectives when offering beta feedback and try not to be too disappointed that they don't match up with yours.

Why do the Empire have to be the bad guys all the time? This is why. Imagine how pleased the mods here are with this discussion. Then imagine how pleased Disney would be if the whole internet was doing it.

(And given what shitheads people can be when they are trying to be the good guys I dread to think what they would be like if they realised they weren't and that they might as well enjoy it.)

You, er, have seen Star Wars right?

Seen the original trilogy (it's my fave of the two) and I saw something rather different than you did in those three movies...

... and right there you just committed exactly the casting of " such larger-than-life propaganda figures as to break suspension of disbelief " that I was talking about. Hell, the movies cast the designated heroes in a better light than you do!

... and right there you just committed exactly the casting of " such larger-than-life propaganda figures as to break suspension of disbelief " that I was talking about.

Shrug. As a lies we tell to children first principle, check what a uniform stands for before you put it on and don't try to genocide your neighbours is okay. If someone wants a more in depth treatment they can try to track down one of the history books that isn't like that. (IF they can find one.)

And, again, more importantly, Disney are not going to touch this discussion with a barge pole. So what good is it?

You can get more and more irate that Star Wars isn't doing what you want it to or you can find a better outlet for what you need and try to enjoy what Disney are looking to sell.

(Incidentally, anyone out there feel free to jump in if you think my analysis of what Disney are likely to do with Star Wars is off. I am not always right.)

And what good is it to keep bringing up Disney insofar as whatever Disney may or may not be "selling", when the thread OP was in the context of running Imperial PCs/campaigns and not whatever Disney may dictate to FFG or whatever FFG may write?

Heck, you yourself weighed in that there's no problem with running a Rebel campaign where the PCs are Imperials who have yet to defect* (I of course have no issue with this either, not least due to, as someone pointed out, a long history of ex-Imps as part of the Rebellion) whereas I'm more interested in the idea of a campaign where the PCs don't defect openly ... so that's Rebels in Imperial cover... as well as non-Alliance anti-Imperials, such as the premise of the Far Orbit Project .

And as we subsequently learned, the OP would have taken things in a different direction and thus it was already a homebrew campaign anyway. Speaking of which, Maelora, check your inbox </redundancy>

* If anything, I feel that "PCs are Imps who have yet to defect" is even more intriguing for a more substantive take on why the Rebels are the good guys.

And what good is it to keep bringing up Disney insofar as whatever Disney may or may not be "selling", when the thread OP was in the context of running Imperial PCs/campaigns and not whatever Disney may dictate to FFG or whatever FFG may write?

Cause it says "General feedback on the Star Wars: Age of Rebellion beta" at the top of the forum. I think it is almost more important, at this time and in this place, to discuss how the Empire and Rebellion are going to be portrayed in Official Age of Rebellion Products ^tm than how people want to play it in their own games.

And as we subsequently learned, the OP would have taken things in a different direction and thus it was already a homebrew campaign anyway. Speaking of which, Maelora, check your inbox </redundancy>

* If anything, I feel that "PCs are Imps who have yet to defect" is even more intriguing for a more substantive take on why the Rebels are the good guys.

Agreed. It's funny but I'm pretty much a lifelong light-sider/pure paragon - my friend in the US brought me a Vader/Palpatine Republican t-shirt just because he knew it would irk me... Yet ErikB is actually making me like the Alliance less with his hectoring. When you can't even preach to the choir, it's time to take a different approach.

But thank you, and those like you who contributed to the thread, it's given me a lot of food for thought and I'm constantly astonished by your in-depth knowledge of the SW universe.

Cause it says "General feedback on the Star Wars: Age of Rebellion beta" at the top of the forum. I think it is almost more important, at this time and in this place, to discuss how the Empire and Rebellion are going to be portrayed in Official Age of Rebellion Products ^tm than how people want to play it in their own games.

Um, are we 'doing it wrong', then?

We're talking about Star Wars role-playing with the AOR game, and I'm sure discussing PC backgrounds - ex-scoundrels, ex-Imperials, etc - is perfectly on topic.

And I'm pretty sure FFG give us leeway to change the canon if we want. It's right there in 'the rules'.

Anyway... more importantly, what do you think of Space Weasels?

I assume the Imperials in general dislike giant fluffy weasel-girls, so they'd lean towards the Alliance, right?

Um, are we 'doing it wrong', then?

Don't care what you want to do. Want to know what you think FFG should do.

<sulks>

Don't care what you want to do. Want to know what you think FFG should do.

Honestly? I want FFG to focus on building (on) a quality tabletop RPG ruleset. They've got a nice lead over Saga which just couldn't escape the fundamental issues underlying the d20 system, as much as I believe that the designers sincerely tried and as much as I believe that they too had an idea of the "spirit" of Star Wars but which the FFG SWRPG system was better able to manifest (thanks to the focus on narrative)... but I want that lead to grow!

More fun with the "Rebels who don't know it yet" (according to ErikB) concept... the Hand of Judgment is really similar to how an EotE game with Imperial deserters might work, complete with a nomadic party of five (no pun intended) sharing a modified freighter as they go about bringing "justice" in the Outer Rim. ( Trivia : They are the ancestral lineage of the 501st Legion depicted in Star Wars: Legacy , not the original 501st Legion, which was dissolved after Endor.)

P.S. Okay, Maelora, now check your inbox </redundancy>, my bad for writing that overly early.

Don't care what you want to do. Want to know what you think FFG should do. <sulks>

Banning you would be a good start.

Banning you would be a good start.

But then who would point out to the Empire fanboys that this isn't a game about playing Imperials, they probably can't do a game about playing Imperials, and to much Space Nazis fanboyism will make the game much less entertaining for people who want to play they game they actually intend to make?

ErikB -

Many of us don't seem to have a problem with your basic argument. It's just the fact that you are making that same argument over and over and over in threads that didn't ask for it. Go through this ONE thread and see how many times you have repeated your basic argument. We got it. Weeks ago. For those who disagree with your premise, they have that right to disagree. Like yourself, they probably aren't going to change their opinion no matter how many times someone endlessly repeats the counter opinion.

But then who would point out to the Empire fanboys that this isn't a game about playing Imperials, they probably can't do a game about playing Imperials, and to much Space Nazis fanboyism will make the game much less entertaining for people who want to play they game they actually intend to make?

I am going to break the my normal rules and answer you, No one needs to point out anything to anyone. RPG's have the advantage over computer games, TV series, comics and Films as any given group can get something different out of it. None of them are wrong, they are just different. I personally would be less inclined to run an Imperial game but that doesn't mean that someone who wants to shouldn't. And the point of these forums are not just about the Beta, which most people can't even get involved in yet since the book is not yet available for order, it is a place for discussion about gaming.

This thread is no less valid than those asking about the Duty Mechanic or suggesting alternative settings in which to use the system. In many ways it is a shame you seem to be so focused on slamming down any conversation which doesn't match your personal view of the world since I am convinced that in some threads you could probably bring something useful and interesting to the conversation. And as to your comment about making the game less entertaining for others, here is a tip; if you don't like the basis of a thread then don't read it. You do not need to be involved in it, you can focus your attention on threads which you do agree with and have useful suggestions for.

@Maelora: Another thought regarding playing Imperials might be that the Pc's are Imperial military (specifically Stormtroopers, TIE pilots etc.) whose mental programming breaks and they start remembering being smugglers, rebels etc who were captured and 'turned' into Imperial military. The characters could end up working toward finding all of the internment camps where this is happening and breaking the prisoners out, possibly even finding a way to help those already programmed to break out.

Eldath

I would point out, that not all Stormtroopers are brainwashed. Some, most really, actually believe in what they are doing. Now some ate going to break away because of thngs like Aldarran, but STs going around chasing pirates may dismiss it as rebel propaganda.

I can see said STs hunting down pirates to find out the reason they became pirates is because their world got screwed over by the Empire. Might make for an interesting moral dilemma.

Always an interesting take, having someone in a group who supports the Empire, or at least what they believe the Empire stands for. After all, there is a Motivation geared towards exactly that (Support the Empire).

In my current game, I have three PCs who all come from Imperial space/families: one is a doctor who doesn't loathe the Empire, but is beginning to go against it based upon what acts he's witnessing on alien planets that are under its thumb; an Imperial ex-officer who went AWOL after he was given orders he considered amoral; and a journalist son of a wealthy Imperial family who truly, honestly, believed the Empire was the greatest thing since sliced bread, until he saw some unedited HoloNet footage that got leaked to him by a friend.

These are individuals who are being enlightened as to the realities of living under the Empire as a non-human ; there's plenty of opportunity to explore life in the galaxy as characters who enjoy the benefits of Imperial citizenship. Yes, the premise of the game might not be geared toward it specifically, but EOTE - like all good RPGs - is built in such a way that you can take the rules and do whatever the hell you want . Glad to see that I'm not the only one who intends on doing so.

Maelora: I would recommend, as others have, looking at some of the Imperial missions in TOR, and some of the Empire-focused novels. They'll give you an ideal view of the kind of missions that a group of characters might be given or come across.

copperbell, the Remnant was essentially founded by assassination: namely, the assassination of thirteen gathered warlords by Admiral Daala and de facto assumption of control (with Vice Admiral Pellaeon) over the warlords' Deep Core forces in the novel; after the assault on Yavin 4 didn't pan out, she resigned in favor of Pellaeon -- all of the above occurs in the novel Darksaber -- who moved what forces he could out of there while absorbing further-Rimward entities such as the Pentastar Alignment to form the Imperial Remnant.

Thanks for the update, that I didn't know.

Given Tarkin's use of the Maw as a secret testing site, whats to stop there being others?

Could even have one involving terraforming with those involved unaware their process is going to be used on already inhabited planets...

Then there's those Devastators or whatever they were called from Dark Empire, who invented them and how and why did they?

I'm imagining hidden systems with Imperial presence perhaps even a place for a game to start using the concept that once their latest invention was finished its final test was to be used on the world it was built to silence anyone from revealing where they had been built who by and how many they actually have...

there's plenty of opportunity to explore life in the galaxy as characters who enjoy the benefits of Imperial citizenship.

I'd swear your references there are 1984, North Korea and Equilibrium - thoughtcrime, political rallies and grinding oppression.

They are not my references, but you're welcome to think they are.