Who better to form a Rebellion than those who were part of the Imperial machine? Most important characters in the Rebellion were part of the Empire, or tried to be, particularly among their pilots.

Luke pined for the Imperial Academy, while Uncle Owen kept him on the moisture farm.

Han Solo was an Imp officer.

Princess Leia Organa was an Imperial Senator.

Biggs Darklighter was an Imp officer.

Tycho Celchu was an Imp fighter pilot.

Baron Soontir Fel was an Imp officer and fighter pilot. (How many Rebels did he kill before joining up with the New Republic?)

Hobbie Klivian was an Imp officer.

Jan Dodonna was an Imp officer (former Republic officer).

Mon Mothma was an Imperial senator

Princess Leia Organa was an Imperial Senator.

Garik Loran was a child actor for the Empire!

I'm sure there are more. This seems like a fertile background for characters. Most of the characters above appeared in the original trilogy or the X-Wing novels.

This would be a great Rebel campaign, starting as Imps, seeing the nature of the Empire, but deciding to stay in and try to work as sleepers. It is what the early Rebels did, according to Zahn, and later, Lucas.

I've run a few pro-Imperial games, but they were designed from the start to either only last a couple of sessions, or to give the PCs a chance to join up with the setting's true good guys by making it very clear that the Empire under Palpatine's oversight is not a pleasant form of government.

That whole post is beautifully put. I think we're on the same page there.

I'm hoping there's a similar sidebar in the AoR book; that the game is focused on playing good-guy rebels, but if you want to try the other side, that's not 'doing it wrong' either. And either way is no excuse for being a jerk to your fellow players.

This is a sound point though: roleplaying Imperials or even Imperials-on-their-way-to-becoming-Rebels-but-roleplayed-in-the-process-of-making-the-transition is up to the group, because content -wise AoR's pretty much got what you should need.

Very true, and well-said.

I think the SW heroes did occasionally punch a stormtrooper, if my memory serves, so a steel chair isn't too unbelievable

Alternately:

Luke: "Han, I betcha I can take that stormtrooper just like I saw when I watched pro grappling as a kid..."

Han: "Pfffft, Luke, didn't anyone back at Tatooine there tell you that pro grappling is--"

Luke: *LARIATS the hell out of a hapless stormtrooper* "-- scripted, not fake."

Han: "..."

I don't watch pro-wrestling (at least not for the past several years), but this sounds remarkably like a conversation that occurred in a Dresden Files game between my young White Council Wizard and the female Scion of Athena (a literal amazon!) during one of the earlier sessions of the campaign.

It's quite something to see a 6+ well-muscled warrior woman make a Dresdenverse goblin* do a 720-degree spin with a single running lariat

*for those not in the know, goblins in the Dresden Files are not the scrawny D&D weaklings, but more like the Uruk-Hai from the LotR films, particularly the ones in FotR before Saruman broke the Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu in later films)

That whole post is beautifully put. I think we're on the same page there.

I'm hoping there's a similar sidebar in the AoR book; that the game is focused on playing good-guy rebels, but if you want to try the other side, that's not 'doing it wrong' either. And either way is no excuse for being a jerk to your fellow players.

Well, the post was more of a "to the general public" than aimed at anyone in particular.

Going from past experience with the EotE Beta, there's whole chunks of the material (including a couple chapters) that were in the EotE core rulebook that wasn't in the Beta rulebook, so I imagine there are whole chunks of material earmarked for the AoR core rulebook that's been left out of the Beta version. So maybe it's something the designers will consider for the full version, even if it is just a sidebar.

Personally, I think the idea of Imperial campaigns could make for an interesting chapter in a purely Imperial sourcebook that goes into detail about how the Empire is structured and operates during this time frame. WEG published such a tome, though that was purely about Imperial gear and operating procedures with no mention of running Imperial PCs, a topic they didn't really cover until the Heroes & Rogues book (which was mostly a collection of character templates).

You don't need to be nice to the bad guys.

Rewriting the space nazis to make them a valid player faction makes playing Rebels less fun. If supporting the ethos of the Empire is a choice a rational being in full possession of the facts might make, then starting a civil war to get rid of them becomes less of a heroic stand against injustice and more of a total d*ck move. If the Stormtroopers are totally awesome professional soldiers with cool high tech gear fighting untrained peasants like US Marines fighting taliban or glorious aryan Waffen SS men heroically defending the fatherland against the hordes of slavic untermench then it makes them very hard for a typical PC group to defeat them and frankly a lot of gamers are going to want to be the elite instead of the horde no matter how loathsome the elite are.

Combine the two together and people playing rebels are going to want to be on the other side. Which for a game that doesn't intend to have you playing the other side and probably has a directive in place from Disney saying 'do not let people play the other side' would be really, really dumb.

Which for a game that doesn't intend to have you playing the other side and probably has a directive in place from Disney saying 'do not let people play the other side' would be really, really dumb.

And just how do you propose they enforce such a silly directive? Disney has done no such thing for the simple reason that they can not. Its a role-playing game. People have been playing both sides and everything in the middle since their inception. And I don't see there being any reason people can not run an Imperial game once they have AoR now.

And let's be clear, playing an Imperial game makes you no less a "Nazi-lover" than playing an evil wizard makes you an occultist. Go back to reading Rona Jaffe's Mazes & Monsters .

ErikB,

Weren't you the same lout that was preaching endlessly on the EotE forums that the Rebels were nothing more than glorified terrorists, and that the Empire was the true heroes of the setting since they represented law and authority in the setting?

I actually find it amusing that what barely passes for logic in your head now has you claiming that "Rebels are the Good Guys! Empire is Evil!" when you spent months spouting the exact opposite.

I guess there are perks to following Insane Troll Logic .

ErikB,

Weren't you the same lout that was preaching endlessly on the EotE forums that the Rebels were nothing more than glorified terrorists, and that the Empire was the true heroes of the setting since they represented law and authority in the setting?

No? You may have misunderstood me when I was suggesting that if the Rebels were portrayed nothing more than glorified terrorists, and that the Empire was the true heroes of the setting since they represented law and authority in the setting then no one would want to play the Rebels which would be really stupid for a GAME ABOUT PLAYING REBELS!!!!11!!!

So help me, but I'll engage.

You don't need to be nice to the bad guys.

That shouldn't mean every NPC in the opposite army is a cardboard cut-out monster who's only there to be blasted into atoms. Even if the Empire are foes, they should have interesting motivations.

If the Stormtroopers are totally awesome professional soldiers with cool high tech gear fighting untrained peasants like US Marines fighting taliban or glorious aryan Waffen SS men heroically defending the fatherland against the hordes of slavic untermench then it makes them very hard for a typical PC group to defeat them and frankly a lot of gamers are going to want to be the elite instead of the horde no matter how loathsome the elite are.

For me, the stormtrooper thing seems to reflect fans who are casuals or hardcore.

Casual fans watch the movies where they are basically iconic but helpless minions, there to add numbers to fight scenes and die when they get shot at. Heck, we watched the Holiday Special last night (gods help us) and one stormtrooper drops his gun, trips over it, and crashes through a wooden bannister. Or you play 'Dark Forces' and you're one-shotting these guys by the truckload with your starting pistol.

It seems to be the more hardcore fans who read the EU who like the stormtroopers as the feared elites, the SW equivalent of 40K space marines or something. They feel that Lucas undersold the concept when he essentially made them into incompetent goons.

I'm somewhere in the middle. I think minions of any kind should drop quickly, but I'm also happy to have Rival or even Nemesis level stormtroopers to represent elite units, the ones who _don't_ get turned over by teddy-bears.

I don't think either approach is wrong, it just sets the tone for your game. Want them to be a deadly elite force that make the players worry when they turn up? Use Rival stats. Want them to be weak but numerous goons so players can blast dozens of them without breaking a sweat like in an Indiana Jones film? Go for it.

Personally, tough troopers wouldn't fly with my group, so that's the approach I take. They want the stormtroopers from Battle for Endor or Holiday Special, so that's what they'll get... most of the time. Until some guy with a red shoulder pad and a sniper rifle shows up, or a Dark Trooper.

But Your Mileage May Vary. That's why I was asking for opinions.

It seems to be the more hardcore fans who read the EU who like the stormtroopers as the feared elites, the SW equivalent of 40K space marines or something. They feel that Lucas undersold the concept when he essentially made them into incompetent goons.

Sure, but it is usually pretty clear that such people imagine themselves as PLAYING AS the Waffen SS stormtroopers. They want awesome Stormtroopers so they can beat on people with them, not awesome stormtroopers for the GM to use to beat on them.

No? You may have misunderstood me when I was suggesting that if the Rebels were portrayed nothing more than glorified terrorists, and that the Empire was the true heroes of the setting since they represented law and authority in the setting then no one would want to play the Rebels which would be really stupid for a GAME ABOUT PLAYING REBELS!!!!11!!!

Surely the whole point in playing the Alliance is to be the few tough veterans fighting against the numerically-superior force? Aragorn verses the uruks or whatever?

I tend to play stormtroopers as minions, but the Empire has millions of them. And Star Destroyers and Death Stars and things. You are not going to beat the Empire by having better tech, or more numbers. They own you in all these departments. So you'll have to be better individually, be Rambo or Indiana Jones or the A-Team or whatever.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but playing the 'plucky underdogs' is what AoR is all about, surely?

Sure, but it is usually pretty clear that such people imagine themselves as PLAYING AS the Waffen SS stormtroopers. They want awesome Stormtroopers so they can beat on people with them, not awesome stormtroopers for the GM to use to beat on them.

That's not really so.

I'm absolutely positive you can play the games using the stormtroopers as elite deadly foes the players should fear, _without_ harbouring violent fascist fantasies.

It's just a game. 'Tough stormtroopers' means a grittier game where the PCs are usually up against it.

My players want to count kills, a la Legolas and Gimli. Just a different theme, more swashbuckling or whatever. Neither approach is good or bad, or reflects our real world political views.

Which is why I'd like to leave real world issues out of this.

Surely the whole point in playing the Alliance is to be the few tough veterans fighting against the numerically-superior force? Aragorn verses the uruks or whatever?

I think so.

Some people, however, would rather play as the Uruks, for reasons I leave to their own conscience, so they want to play as the few tough veteran uruks valiantly fighting against the hordes of Aragorns.

That's not really so.

I'm absolutely positive you can play the games using the stormtroopers as elite deadly foes the players should fear, _without_ harbouring violent fascist fantasies.

Probably, but still the people who want tough stormtroopers will, ultimately, turn out to want to play stormtroopers instead of rebels.

Which is why I'd like to leave real world issues out of this.

Star wars is such a thinly veiled allegory you can't leave real world issues out it it.

I guess there are perks to following Insane Troll Logic .

WE're talking about someone that goes on and on about Empire=Nazis while blatantly ignoring the fact that they are based on more than just Nazis. That if you even think about playing an Imperial game, you are also a Nazi.

Bu then says this:

So, for those who totally don't think the Empire are Nazis, can you tell me what kind of Imperial you would like to play without using the words Erwin Rommell, Erich Hartmann, Michael Whitmann or Waffen SS?

So it is okay for him to state decisively that the Empire is based exclusively on the Nazis and they were all evil, you know, because all of Germany must have been evil, and so is the Empire. But you can't show examples of real-world Germans that weren't exclusively evil. Not to mention that there is nothing the Nazis did that hadn't been done before by other cultures.They are just the most recognizable and easiest to pick on.

Probably, but still the people who want tough stormtroopers will, ultimately, turn out to want to play stormtroopers instead of rebels.

Not necessarily. They may just want the players to have more respect for iconic troops than Lucas did. In a gritty game where the PCs are low-level street types, that's thematically appropriate.

I'm pretty sure you can dress up as a stormtrooper at a convention without secretly wanting to eat puppies or shoot innocent civilians.

Star wars is such a thinly veiled allegory you can't leave real world issues out it it.

But the allegory goes beyond WW2 Germany. The National Socialists didn't even have an 'Emperor', that concept owes more to the Japanese forces if anything, or to dozens of cultures throughout history.

The core concepts of SW - a republic overthrown by a politician who becomes a dictator, and plucky underdogs fighting a bigger force - has echoes in pretty much any conflict in history.

Why are you so fixated on this? The beauty of an RPG is that we can play what we want.

Internet forums like this one are just places where middle-aged nerds like us can share opinions, there's no need to take it so personally. SW is big enough to mean many things to many people.

If one group wants to play 'Triumph of the Will' and gloriously conquer the galaxy, that's up to them. If another wants to play the Imperials as puppy-eating monsters to a man, that's their choice. I like something in the middle, with nuances, and no easy choices. At 44, I want to explore different concepts to 'rescue the girl and shoot all the bad guys'.

Not necessarily.

Wanna bet?

:-)

--

At 44, I want to explore different concepts to 'rescue the girl and shoot all the bad guys'.

And that is fine, I just don't think Disney should, and I don't think they will.

We're talking about someone that goes on and on about Empire=Nazis while blatantly ignoring the fact that they are based on more than just Nazis.

I think it's REALLY unfortunate Lucas chose to call his iconic enemies 'stormtroopers'.

Some people seem to fixate on everything that implies.

Wanna bet?

:-)

I know a guy who dresses up as Judge Dredd at conventions.

He's some way to the left of me, very much the anti-fascist and passionate liberal.

His choice of cosplay seems odd to me, but that's all it is: a game.

I think it's REALLY unfortunate Lucas chose to call his iconic enemies 'stormtroopers'.

Why do you think Lucas would have any compunction about using Nazis as bad guys? He would have been watching movies all the time where good guys kick the crap out of Nazis. He makes movies like Indiana Jones with Nazis as the bad guys.

Dude don't like Nazis, and he doesn't see anything wrong with not liking Nazis.

And that is fine, I just don't think Disney should, and I don't think they will.

I don't really get your Disney fixation... But nobody is saying that the new films will be strongly pro-Imperial, are they?

The new films will, most likely, play things safe. They probably won't have same-gender romances, heroic stormtroopers or sparkly vampires in them, either.

But if someone wants these elements in their RPG, it's up to them.

I know a guy who dresses up as Judge Dredd at conventions.

He's some way to the left of me, very much the ant-fascist and passionate liberal.

His choice of cosplay seems odd to me, but that's all it is: a game.

People who want tough stormtroopers will turn out to want to play stormtroopers and not rebels. WHY they will turn out to want to play stormtroopers will have a number of different reasons.

The problem is that making it okay for them to play as stormtroopers would make it less fun for people not playing as storm troopers, and probably isn't something that Disney is interested in doing anyway.

Why do you think Lucas would have any compunction about using Nazis as bad guys? He would have been watching movies all the time where good guys kick the crap out of Nazis. He makes movies like Indiana Jones with Nazis as the bad guys.

Dude don't like Nazis, and he doesn't see anything wrong with not liking Nazis.

I don't like Nazis either... I wouldn't have lasted long considering my political leanings, Slavic ethnicity and sexuality either.

But what does that have to do with Star Wars, or a role-playing game? As a GM, I want to discuss how Imperial leanings would affect my upcoming AoR game, and what kind of things I should consider for a player with this background. Which has NOTHING TO DO with my own feelings for pre-WW2 totalitarian governments.

I've tried to engage, I really have, but I'm getting flummoxed.

Donovan Morningfire was right, you really do seem to be at the stage where you're harming your own argument.

And now I've derailed my own thread. Bah.

But if someone wants these elements in their RPG, it's up to them.

I agree. But this is at least technically a forum about a beta version of a game about playing rebels.

The way you would write the Empire if you wanted the decision to support the Empire or the Rebellion to be an actual choice is different from how you would write the Empire if you want to make a game about Aragorn kicking the crap out of Uruks. And given that this looks a heck of a lot more like the latter game rather than the former, a lot of beta feedback that only makes sense if the players are playing imperials instead of rebels would be... unhelpful.