I dunno, it seems to me that ErikB just doesn't like the concept of a gray area, which completely baffles me. Gray area is my favorite kind of area! Got jedi on the job? Make their job a little harder by making the proper choice not as glamorous as it could be. Having the hyper-robotic mindset of "ALL EMPIRE IS BAD GUYS" makes literally no sense to me. That's like the mindset of "ALL REBELS IS GOOD GUYS," which is also not true. No one has clean hands in Star Wars; not even the Jedi. Likewise, no one has uncleanable dirty hands. Not even the Sith (well, maybe 99% of them do, but that's a different story).

There is no reason why someone couldn't play a campaign where the Imperials were painted in a better light than the Rebels. Point of view is a magical thing. America seems great from the inside, but I know for a fact that some other people in the world won't agree. Does that make THEM evil? Maybe. Maybe not. But I certainly wouldn't say that it makes us 100% good, especially when we consider certain individuals like Andrew Jackson.

Never claim that PCs are not sociopaths. Just because it hasn't been diagnosed doesn't mean the symptoms should be ignored.

I believe the more appropriate term (particularly for Fantasy RPGs) is "wandering murder-hobos"

Sadly, it's a mindset that tends to get carried over from games like D&D and Pathfinder where more often than not, the driving goal is to "kill the bad guys and take their stuff," with the definition of "bad guy" being somewhat malleable depending on the GM, down to the point of being "anybody that's not us or doesn't directly support us."

Back on topic, as I said before this thread suffered a major de-rail, playing a group of Imperial PCs for anything longer than a one-shot takes a certain level of maturity, primarily mental. I know gamers that are in their late teens that are more mature than gamers in their 50's. Thus my mention of needing that level of mental maturity to allow for the PCs to work in a coherent group without falling almost immediately into the sort of back-stabbing and cutthroat antics that the EU has painted the Empire under Palpatine's rule as being.

The Legacy Era comics are a decent example of how you can have an Empire (specifically the Fel Empire-in-Exile) that isn't an oppressive fascist regime, as members of any species of either gender are allowed to participate and are given value. Even Krayt's version of the Empire is a bit more open-minded; though he still falls into the "genocidal jerk" role by the series' end, at least he wants to wipe out everyone in equal measure.

I think that for a lot of Imperial campaigns where Palps is the one in charge of things, there's going to come a point where the PCs will have to come to the realization that the Empire they are serving is, for lack of a better term, evil. At which time, they'll need to decide how to proceed. Do they jump ship and join the Rebellion? Do they swallow their moral qualms and continue being good little Imperials (particularly if doing otherwise puts friends and family at risk)? Or do they find some third option or middle ground, such as the "Hand of Judgement" stormtroopers, who rationalized their actions as "the Empire betrayed us and it's promises" rather than letting them be called or perceived as traitors to the Empire.

Interestingly enough, there was a WotC RPGA module called "Murder on the Executor" that took place about the time of the Battle of Hoth (perhaps even during if I remember right) where the PCs were all 1st level members of the Empire that served aboard Lord Vader's flagship. The end of the adventure gave the PCs a choice of either jumping ship with a Rebel agent, or staying loyal to the Empire and bringing the man down. The results from each session were rather... varied, with some groups staying 100% loyal, some groups going 100% turncoat, but a few splitting down the middle with some staying loyal and others turning traitor. It was quite interesting, especially as nothing about these Imperial PCs or what they generally did during the course of the adventure would paint them as villains other than where they drew their paycheck from.

Could also depend on the sort of man that the PCs ultimately answer to. Thrawn was a pragmatic villain, accepting sound ideas even if they weren't his and not killing someone because they failed yet made an effort to address the failure rather than try to foist it off on someone else, but he still kept a primitive race in servitude thru deceit and was perfectly willing to steal a mother's newborn children to hand off to a known lunatic simply to further his goals. Granted, later EU has painted him as being something of an "ends justifies the means" type of guy, seeing the Empire as a better option to defend the galaxy from extra-galactic threats than the squabbling Republic (Old or New).

Re: "Ends Justify the Means" -- the Far Orbit Project sourcebook was about just such an op, namely a Rebel-backed (against Ackbar's wishes!) privateer raiding operation based from the titular Nebulon-B Far Orbit with an onboard Rebel observer (much resented by the crew) and operating under an Alliance-issued letter of marque and reprisal such as this (replacing the relevant names).

As for anti-alien humans... I present to you Wraith Squadron's second slicer , whose xenophobia persisted even into his Wraith Squadron days (before which he'd been part of a non-Alliance anti-Imperial group based on Coruscant... but similarly xenophobic).

One of the things I sometimes have confusion with, and it is present a little here, is that in the search for 'grey', it seems implicit that the Rebellion are good guys, something that tends to focus the discussion on carving out some "good" in the Empire to play around with.

Well, I think it stems from the fact that - in the films - the characters were are supposed to be rooting for are on the Alliance side. There's no real discussion as to which side they should join or arguments about the merits of either.

Also, we see the DS blow up a heavily-populated planet, and Luke's fosters get wiped out.

So, in the films at least, Lucas intends us to be pro-Alliance.

And to a degree, EoE and AoR are presented from the perspective of the films (though that's obviously not the only way to run the games).

Of course, a role-playing game is quite a different animal to a movie, which is why we're having this discussion. And 'Star Wars' means different things today than it did 30 years ago.

Agree with everything else in your post, though. Although none of these nuances are really present in the films. I certainly didn't think of this stuff when I was seven, or when I was 13 watching the last one (although Slave Leia was my first girl crush, so SW did have some impact on my adolescent thought-processes...) In retrospect, as adults (and SW geeks) we can reflect on these things and see a wider picture than the one Lucas presents us in the films.

As Donovan points out, Imperial types are, at some point, going to have to deal with Palapatine doing 'Evil Wizard Stuff' and rationalise that.

But yes; I'm certainly going to run our AoR game with shades of grey from both sides. My players wouldn't expect anything less.

Man, I loved that show growing up. Whoever thought of a comedy set in a POW camp was a genius.

As Donovan points out, Imperial types are, at some point, going to have to deal with Palapatine doing 'Evil Wizard Stuff' and rationalise that.

Or the really fun roleplaying starts. I love a good Imperial or Sith game. It's also a fun game if a lot of the Emperor hate is propaganda. Great way to twist up a game.

Also 40+. Rock on!

And get ErikB on ignore in your profile. it does help.

It's also a fun game if a lot of the Emperor hate is propaganda.

Fun for who? The players who turn up to play Star Wars or the GM who wants to mess with them?

So, in the films at least, Lucas intends us to be pro-Alliance.

And HEAVEN FORFEND THAT A STAR WARS RPG SHOULD REFLECT THE GOD **** STAR WARS MOVIES.

Is there anyone. ANYONE with any **** enthusiasm for playing the setting straight?

I just wanna geek out over how cool X-Wings are and pretend to blow up Space Nazis...

I just wanna geek out over how cool X-Wings are and pretend to blow up Space Nazis...

Just do that then, instead of insisting that other people are playing their game wrong. Get into the Fighter Wing thread and brag on the X-wing. Go tell wonderful stories of how your smuggler/technician/politico got embroiled in fighting the Empire.

I for one like playing against the Empire. But that doesn't mean I need to beat people over the head with it.

Get into the Fighter Wing thread and brag on the X-wing.

Thanks a lot, it was going so well until now, he already derailed the "how many thread" and the "X-wing and other Rebel Fighters" threads before this.

Of course, a role-playing game is quite a different animal to a movie, which is why we're having this discussion. And 'Star Wars' means different things today than it did 30 years ago.

To say the least! I mean, it's a license where Karen Traviss was allowed to write for the series, and thanks to the rules of "C-canon" the EU was forever burdened with her Mandalorians ever since...

Plus of course there's the vagaries of George Lucas' evolving beliefs over time, which is how we got the "Han shot first" meme... once I'm having to deal with multiple versions of "George Lucas' vision", I'm disregarding all of them... and hell, ErikB has already tainted the term "original intent". To put him on ignore, Edit Your Profile and then choose 'Ignore' Preferences, then set his posts to Hide, though this doesn't hide quotes (of him by others).

Do the mods no longer respond to reports here? I mean ErikB under another name was already banned once here. He has a track record of derailing threads. Now he's back under a new name, doing the exact same thing. I'm assuming I'm not the only one who has been reporting his repeated derailing of threads here while spamming irrelevant pictures (to the OP) to make the same point over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and..over.

What does it take to get the mods to finally remove this guy.....AGAIN?

Do the mods no longer respond to reports here? I mean ErikB under another name was already banned once here. He has a track record of derailing threads. Now he's back under a new name, doing the exact same thing. I'm assuming I'm not the only one who has been reporting his repeated derailing of threads here while spamming irrelevant pictures (to the OP) to make the same point over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and..over.

What does it take to get the mods to finally remove this guy.....AGAIN?

Same arguments and insults.

Anyway, lets get off this discussion, since we are derailing the OP, and giving that little troll exactly what he wants, attention.

I can say, from experience, that running an Imperial/dark side game is not only possible, but really fun. But... as it has been said many times... with the right group.

Years back, I ran a dark side campaign with the Revised Core Rulebook. The main group consisted of 3 sith and 1 bounty hunter. The game was amazing. It was actually the first game I ever GM'd. We had a few players that came and went, but the ones who stuck around were the right players for such a game. The campaign lasted 1 1/2 years, and they made it to lvl 17 before an unintentional TPK. To date, it was my longest, most successful, an fun campaign.

A few helpful hints to those who want to jump into this:

- Your players/characters WILL get to the point where they don't trust each other. FInd an interesting way to deal with it. Three sith vying for power created a tense situation. About 10 levels in, they found themselves on a planet with an area rich with the dark side. Much like the cave on Dagobah. A 4 player battle royal started under the ruse of a dark side illusion. They finally had a chance to get it out w/o the consequences of actually attacking other PCs. It added to the story and let my players do exactly what they wanted to do. Its an RPG. Have fun with it.

-Have consequences in the game. Its no different than a rebel/republic/jedi game. Think of how Duty works. The more you obtain, the more attention you draw to yourselves. An imperial game would be no different. Your team would be a high priority for the rebellion to eliminate.

-Talk it over with your players. Again, the final word is yes, it can be done. But make sure everyone understands that it can be a more difficult game to run/play.

Have fun, and good luck.

Do the mods no longer respond to reports here?

Maybe they find space nazi fanwank as... unhelpful for a game focused on playing Rebels as I do.

Do the mods no longer respond to reports here?

Maybe they find space nazi fanwank as... unhelpful for a game focused on playing Rebels as I do.

Isn't there a bridge you could be hiding under?

As stated the computer game TIE Fighter is a good reference. It is true about imperials having to deal with the evil wizard. I'd like to play in a game where the players start as imperials, but on a ship far removed from the core.. seeing how the rest of the galaxy lives, and rather than joining the rebel alliance they break off and try maintain the order the empire extols. Basically less serving the man (emperor) and more the uniform (as a symbol of galactic stability)

I've always run imperials farther from the core as less discriminating.

I also play only imperial in x-wing.. or TIE Fighter as I refer to it. Tie fighters rock... I mean they are so awesome they can make sound in space!

Is there anyone. ANYONE with any **** enthusiasm for playing the setting straight?

My EotE players are fairly friendly with a Sector Ranger SEO. He's an Imperial but not really such a bad guy. He even lets the PCs get away with minor crimes so long as they continue to act as informants for him and stay in the Outer Rim. It's a Favor Obligation now, but it could easily turn into Criminal or even Bounty as the story develops.

Is there anyone. ANYONE with any **** enthusiasm for playing the setting straight?

If you are sincere in trying to foment enthusiasm for "playing the setting straight", you are actively detrimental to your own claimed cause.

You've also sapped others' enthusiasm for that too.

On topic: the fun(ny) thing about what HappyDaze is that, as That Blasted Samophlange alludes to, it's probably more likely the further out from the Core you go, that institutions besides the Imperial military are less likely to have been "Imperialized" simply because of the reach of the Empire could only go so far (did people forget how big galaxies are?), so as long as said local or regional institutions couldn't or didn't have the intent of "pushing deeper into the Core", they could essentially function as before... in short, "with only an Imperial coat of paint". Therefore, if your players or yourself aren't interested in playing "sincere Imps" (or you question your group's maturity) then this is one alternate option.

P.S. Here's one way to write "slimy Imp NPC":

Cole: Last Monday night on Raw you personally handed Dean Ambrose a lead pipe that he used to give Daniel Bryan a concussion.

​HHH: I'm only human Cole. The man has defied my authority week after week. I can't let the locker room believe that is acceptable behavior. Now, was giving Ambrose a pipe going too far? Maybe. But I want to be very clear that I did not tell Ambrose to hit Bryan on the head with the pipe. We take head injuries very seriously in the WWE, and Ambrose will be receiving a fine for his actions.

​HHH: I'm only human Cole. The man has defied my authority week after week. I can't let the locker room believe that is acceptable behavior. Now, was giving Ambrose a pipe going too far? Maybe. But I want to be very clear that I did not tell Ambrose to hit Bryan on the head with the pipe. We take head injuries very seriously in the WWE, and Ambrose will be receiving a fine for his actions.

Haha, now I'm imagining a stormtrooper whacking somebody with a steel chair!

But yes, thanks for the input everyone.

I'm in favour of playing the setting straight, personally - but I'll cater to what my players want, and I like to include 'shades of grey' in all factions. When it's not being derailed, this thread has helped me with that, so thanks.

And ErikB, any chance you could try to be a bit less confrontational? Heck, we actually support the same side, and you're kinda grinding my gears a bit... You've actually made a few decent points along the way when you're not being combative.

Perhaps play an Imp who espouses order and justice above all, even the Emperor, and while he could join the rebellion that would mean his post would be taken over by an iron fisted type guy, so he stays at his post, and is just far enough on the outer rim to not be bothered by the ISB, for now.

OR go full hog and be an evil Imperial. It's just a game.

Most of the Star Wars games that I've played and run where the PCs are part of the Rebellion have been played fairly straight, but at the same time many of those were under the D6 system where the only Imperials in canon that weren't written as pure villains were really only to be found in the Thrawn Trilogy.

That's not to say I didn't throw in the occasional Imperial who wasn't a total d-bag, one that could actually be deemed a decent fellow and possible ally by the PCs where it not for the uniform he wore. And the players liked the occasional reminder that for all the evil of it's founder and head-honcho, that some Imperials were ultimately people instead of just targets to be shot at. Admittedly, I did so sparingly, as I'd already had my fill and then some of existential angst from all the Vampire: Masquerade games and White Wolf's World of Overbearing Angst product line. Besides, who was I to spoil their fun of blasting stormtroopers and outwitting insufferably arrogant Imperial officers while outracing TIE fighters in their souped-up light freighter?

But at the same time, if a group of players want to explore what it's like to be on the either side of the Galactic Civil War, that's not necessarily the wrong way to play the game, so long as everyone has fun. The problem comes in that I've seen and heard of too many instances where the fun got ruined because someone decided to fully embrace the "Evil Imperial" stereotype and turn on the rest of the group. Now while that sort of thing might be expected (if not outright encouraged) in Paranoia, most RPGs tend to focus on the group working and cooperating as a whole. You see and hear similar stories from D&D and similar games where the person playing an Evil-aligned PC decides to be a jerk simply for the sake of being a jerk, with their excuse being "well because I'm Evil!"

I've run a few pro-Imperial games, but they were designed from the start to either only last a couple of sessions, or to give the PCs a chance to join up with the setting's true good guys by making it very clear that the Empire under Palpatine's oversight is not a pleasant form of government.

I guess the bottom lines of this thread are:

BUYER BEWARE

and

YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY

Haha, now I'm imagining a stormtrooper whacking somebody with a steel chair!

Why stop at mere imagining?! It's perfect ! Hell, maybe it happens in the heat of the action during a raid gone bad when a stormtrooper's disarmed of his blasters and it's the only thing at hand...

Yes, thanks to you all, I have now just imagined the events of the original trilogy played out in pro wrestling form as if it were a continuous weekly storyline, and the prequels were just some "experimental" booking down in developmental .