I fairly sure that is what drives so many ex-imperials into the rebellion. "Wth? Why am I supporting this ?" Conversly, I also have to imagine that with such a wide spread Empire, something around 1.75 million planets, you could serve a full hitch with honors and retire, without ever having to shoot someone. There's room for the lose of idealism, and room for the reasons that such idealism is worthy of being.

Because the galaxy is just that big.

Out of interest how old are you?

44. Saw the original films as a kid.

My mom was one of the first people born in Cardiff after the war. Lost a granddad in WW2. My dad was a generation older, he served on the aircraft carriers during the war. Quite aware of WW2 and how it profoundly affected my tiny little country. Majored in History in school, got an A in my A-level. So quite conversant with that period in history.

But you know what? I _don't_ want to bring real-world parellels into my games. I'm happy to discuss dictatorships and rebellions in general, but there's nothing to be gained by going the Imperials = Nazis route.

I assume pro-Imperials players are simply role-players and not fascists in real life.

ErikB, I was expecting you to comment and honestly don't want to 'ignore' you, and I respect your opinion. I'm very pro-Rebellion personally. But as a GM, I have to be balanced and nuanced, and cater to my players, so I wanted to know how one would go about an 'alternate' campaign.

Can we _please_ try to be respectful of other opinions? I enjoy robust debate but let's not insult each other?

but there's nothing to be gained by going the Imperials = Nazis route.

They are Nazis though. But that is fine because kicking the crap out of Nazis IS wholesome family entertainment.

If he says 16, are you going to berate him for being a "young whipper snapper that doesn't know the true horrors of war?"

More that if someone is young enough to have grown up watching movies where the main bogeyman is terrorists instead of the evil empire they might not get the er, subtle hints that you are looking at a Nazi, and why said Nazi is a bad man. You don't need to show said Nazi kicking a dog because everyone watching had seen so many war movies and documentaries and heard so many war stories from their elders that they knew just by putting on an Imperial uniform the wearer was at best okay with dog kicking and concentration camps, and indeed probably considered both something of a hobby.

Still when you have a bunch of guys with British accents sitting around a table dressed as Nazis discussing ruling through fear (during which conference Darth chokes a subordinate), who then proceed to blow up a planet and torture a princess surely people can see that these guys are not supposed to be sympathetic.

Conversly, I also have to imagine that with such a wide spread Empire, something around 1.75 million planets, you could serve a full hitch with honors and retire, without ever having to shoot someone.

See, I'd have said that the day to day activities of Stormtroopers involves rounding up enemies of the New Order and sending them off to the camps for torture and execution, breaking up peaceful protests with repeating blasters and grenades, burning villages of peasants who can't pay their unfair taxes and collecting protection money from shopkeepers and roughing up those who can't pay, fetching women on their wedding night so the local moff can exercise their droit du seigneur, enforcing the regulations that segregate aliens from humans (in particular, shooting anyone who won't move to the back of the bus), collecting those deemed unfit to breed and taking them off for sterilisation, turning people out of their homes so a corrupt moff can sell the land to his cronies, enacting collective punishment, terrorising the populace to keep them in line and routine ethnic cleansing.

To support the Empire is to support those kinds of activities.

Conversly, I also have to imagine that with such a wide spread Empire, something around 1.75 million planets, you could serve a full hitch with honors and retire, without ever having to shoot someone.

See, I'd have said that the day to day activities of Stormtroopers involves rounding up enemies of the New Order and sending them off to the camps for torture and execution, breaking up peaceful protests with repeating blasters and grenades, burning villages of peasants who can't pay their unfair taxes and collecting protection money from shopkeepers and roughing up those who can't pay, fetching women on their wedding night so the local moff can exercise their droit du seigneur, enforcing the regulations that segregate aliens from humans (in particular, shooting anyone who won't move to the back of the bus), collecting those deemed unfit to breed and taking them off for sterilisation, turning people out of their homes so a corrupt moff can sell the land to his cronies, enacting collective punishment, terrorising the populace to keep them in line and routine ethnic cleansing.

To support the Empire is to support those kinds of activities.

Could you stop masturbating in public please.

It's creepy.

Not every Fascist or totalitarian regime are Nazis.

Not every Fascist or totalitarian regime are Nazis.

So what, the empire are a nice facist totalitarian regime?

I don't think people want to overthrow the Empire because of their free icecream and puppies policies.

We need an Internet Law to cover ErikB's uncontrollable need to jump into any and every Imperial thread to piss in the proverbial punch pool.

Anyone got any ideas on what to call it?

Contact-Mod-Ban Law?

Not every Fascist or totalitarian regime are Nazis.

So what, the empire are a nice facist totalitarian regime?

I don't think people want to overthrow the Empire because of their free icecream and puppies policies.

Sorry, my eyes must have failed me, where was it written that every other totalitarian or fascit regime is nice? Also, why must you ruin every thread about the Empire with your intolerant, ignorant, closeminded, patronising and word-twisting spite?Seriously...

I for one remain endlessly surprised that the idea that Nazis and the Empire might be considered bad people is in some way controversial.

I for one remain endlessly surprised that the idea that Nazis and the Empire might be considered bad people is in some way controversial.

No one disagrees that the Empire is bad. Many people, though, do not agree that it is the only way to portray them. Bad guys are not bad only because they are evil. And many people have interest in exploring characters that are not all virtuous and good. Hell, EotE's focus is on characters that are not always good. No reason people can not play an Imperial game that focuses on characters like that too.

Hell, EotE's focus is on characters that are not always good.

I'd have said that EotE characters core values are to live free of the interference of others.

OTOH, an Imperials core values are to march up and down in a sharp uniform bossing people about.

You can certainly make a Masterless Man look selfish instead of free spirited, but I don't think you can easily make an Imperial look good. You can show why wearing a sharp uniform and bossing people about might seem attractive, but it is kinda hard to spin it in to being a virtue in and of itself.

In many ways, I would have thought Lucas would have been more influenced by the wars happening at the time of the films, or in the couple of decades before, such as the Rebels using the same tactics the Viet Cong used against America in the Vietnam War (where America used prison camps and wiped out entire towns with napalm for potentially having Vietcong members there, and the US lost that war like the Empire lost against the Rebellion), or the same tactics that the Mujahideen used in Afghanistan against the Soviets (happening at the same time as the films were released).

So yea, America did vile things in Vietnam - does that mean we can suggest that the Empire was based on America?

By ErikB's logic, yes. Which, sadly for many people here, means by his logic, you're all bad people for being American.

Sorry, that's just how it is.

Personally, though, I think judging people on things they find interesting to be a relatively stupid idea - I find all sorts of morally dubious things interesting, on an intellectual and roleplaying level, and I wouldn't consider myself a bad person.

Does playing a vampire in nWoD who isn't bothered about what he is make someone a monster? No, because it's make-believe.

Not every Fascist or totalitarian regime are Nazis.

So what, the empire are a nice facist totalitarian regime?

I don't think people want to overthrow the Empire because of their free icecream and puppies policies.

Wow, I was trying to keep the discussion to proper definitions...where do I give any sort of judgement call? I simply meant that the term "Nazi" is overused and not appropriate in this discussion. The Empire is a Fascist regime that has evil elements and seriously ugly overtones. They even have elements drawn from history to invoke their symbolism in the viewer.

That said, the Empire's leadership has a differing viewpoint and ideology than the real life Nazi party. They are not Nazis. They are a different Fascist and Totalitarian regime. And unless you have a really different opinion of fascist and totalitarian regimes than most, puppies and ice cream would only be used in torture or interrogation scenes in very unusual ways.

I can see it now "Tell us the location of the rebel base or we will do more horrible things to this puppy!"

Hmm...can you be waterboarded with ice cream? Is that even possible?

I simply meant that the term "Nazi" is overused and not appropriate in this discussion.

Even though their inspiration is pretty clearly all the Nazis Lucas watched in war movies? Even though his other movies tend to feature actual Nazis as the bad guys?

And let us assume for a moment that Lucas totally wasn't thinking about Nazis when he made Star Wars liberally stealing the ending from the Dambusters, they are still not good people.

I had such high hopes for this thread

I can be extremely naïve for someone 44 years of age.

So yea, America did vile things in Vietnam - does that mean we can suggest that the Empire was based on America?

By ErikB's logic, yes. Which, sadly for many people here, means by his logic, you're all bad people for being American.

Sorry, that's just how it is.

Every culture on earth has done things that are abhorrent. The Brits enslaved and committed genocide. The US as well. There isn't a culture that can say they are perfect. The Empire was based on so much more than just the Nazis. Unfortunately Erik neither believes nor will listen to anything different. He is the Empire=Nazis propaganda machine, 245/7, and how dare you suggest anything different. It is a pretty narrowly focused lens, but not the first time I've seen this. He reminds me of a child that keeps repeating himself over and over in the hopes that he will be listened to or get what he is asking for.

In many ways, I would have thought Lucas would have been more influenced by the wars happening at the time of the films, or in the couple of decades before, such as the Rebels using the same tactics the Viet Cong used against America in the Vietnam War (where America used prison camps and wiped out entire towns with napalm for potentially having Vietcong members there, and the US lost that war like the Empire lost against the Rebellion), or the same tactics that the Mujahideen used in Afghanistan against the Soviets (happening at the same time as the films were released).

So yea, America did vile things in Vietnam - does that mean we can suggest that the Empire was based on America?

By ErikB's logic, yes. Which, sadly for many people here, means by his logic, you're all bad people for being American.

Sorry, that's just how it is.

Personally, though, I think judging people on things they find interesting to be a relatively stupid idea - I find all sorts of morally dubious things interesting, on an intellectual and roleplaying level, and I wouldn't consider myself a bad person.

Does playing a vampire in nWoD who isn't bothered about what he is make someone a monster? No, because it's make-believe.

The Empire lost at the peace talks and never lost a battle in the field?

The Empire lost at the peace talks and never lost a battle in the field?

Aye. Do people really want Star Wars to become a vehicle to rehabilitate Nazis in the same we We Were Soldiers and the like have been a vehicle to rehabilitate the US army?

It is so nice to see that Will This Become Another Iraq? is the new Will This Become Another Vietnam?

Not all imperials and stormtroopers are evil. Just read the Legacy-Era comics. The Yages are not "nazis" or "bad" at all... and yet they are Imperials. Same for the people at the Joker Squad....

I think discussing Imperial options is valid, especially considering that there is never a 100% right side to a "war". My players, unlike myself, would just love to play stormtroopers and even Sith. It is a matter of taste. Not everyone wants to be Obi Wan Kenobi...

So, for those who totally don't think the Empire are Nazis, can you tell me what kind of Imperial you would like to play without using the words Erwin Rommell, Erich Hartmann, Michael Whitmann or Waffen SS?

Not all imperials and stormtroopers are evil. Just read the Legacy-Era comics. The Yages are not "nazis" or "bad" at all... and yet they are Imperials. Same for the people at the Joker Squad....

I think discussing Imperial options is valid, especially considering that there is never a 100% right side to a "war". My players, unlike myself, would just love to play stormtroopers and even Sith. It is a matter of taste. Not everyone wants to be Obi Wan Kenobi...

So, for those who totally don't think the Empire are Nazis, can you tell me what kind of Imperial you would like to play without using the words Erwin Rommell, Erich Hartmann, Michael Whitmann or Waffen SS?

Gilead Pelleon or anybody from Fel Dynasty? Oh, sorry I forgot this is real world only.

Gilead Pelleon....

Who, in my oppinion, seems less of a jerk than Mon Mothma and that Councilor Fey'la, who are, oh gosh, Rebels (: