On 12/10/2020 at 11:34 AM, Derrault said:

Think that AMG would make an Armada equivalent? (Ie in the same way that Legion parallels X-Wing as being smallish scale engagements) Then you could get your giant vehicles, and have squads that are basically squadron equivalents.

They could, but they probably won't, and probably shouldn't because there aren't that many land vehicles that are different enough to expand the game. The one thing that AMG makes is a game with literally hundreds of characters. It has and almost never ending lifespan. Star Wars on the other hand has a handful of characters a bunch of no-names on the side. One of the problems with Star Wars in the new movies, is it that you essentially re-released all of the same old vehicles or make copies 40 year old vehicles. They won't sell enough of the game to make it worth their while

3 hours ago, Derrault said:

Think that AMG would make an Armada equivalent? (Ie in the same way that Legion parallels X-Wing as being smallish scale engagements) Then you could get your giant vehicles, and have squads that are basically squadron equivalents.

That sounds like Epic scale for GW's line and I'd be down with that. It would be cool to have a vehicle based game where an actual unit of Storm Troopers is a base with like 10 troopers on it. Then you could really go all in on gunships and large walkers like AT-AT's and AT-TE's. There wouldn't be as many for the Rebellion unless they dive into Empire at War units that may or may not be canon anymore. Empire, Republic, and CIS would be great for a game like that.

All of that is wishful thinking though. Honestly, I'll take stable and more consistent releases for the current lines over the creation of new lines in the short term.

please no more changing scales for miniatures. an epic scale game would be a disaster. like going from imperial assault to legion all over.

just release the AT-AT for legion. it will be the best selling model in legion history.

the number of people that buy it will far outweigh the detractors which are primarily people who dont play Imperials and dont want to have to fight an AT-AT. lol.

The lroblem is that the AT-AT will either be too big to be practical, or will be shrunk so much it will look silly (and will still be impractical because of its height).

I'd love a 6mm or 10mm game fir large scale battles, with X-Wing ships used as air support.

On 12/10/2020 at 4:52 PM, Khobai said:

just release the AT-AT for legion. it will be the best selling model in legion history.

Bold claim. Imperials are my secondary faction (after Dee Bradley Baker... and friends), and I wouldn't buy an AT-AT.

1 hour ago, GooeyChewie said:

Bold claim. Imperials are my secondary faction (after Dee Bradley Baker... and friends), and I wouldn't buy an AT-AT.

people who dont even play legion will buy it though like they did with the wotc at-at

1 hour ago, Khobai said:

people who dont even play legion will buy it though like they did with the wotc at-at

That depends entirely on whether they did the sliding scale for it or not.

If they did it in ~1:46 like most Legion stuff? Yeah, that'd do really well simply because there's no alternative, and it'd be the biggest "accurate"(ie, not a toy and with correct proportions) AT-AT full stop. If they drop the size down though, there are already model kits in the 1:52 and smaller range that cost a fraction of what a Legion AT-AT box would, so people who don't play Legion would have no reason to buy one. Also it's worth remembering that consumer 3D printing wasn't a thing when the WotC AT-AT came out and now it very much is.

It's a kit that would take a lot of resources to develop and manufacture, and while I'd love to see it, I don't think the opportunity cost in other cool stuff we could have that's more suitable for the scale of the game.

even if they did it in 1/72 people would buy them

a full size AT-AT would take up about 15% of the table, even if it was standing, it is too big and would be unusable in game, it would be just over range 3 long and could only fire in a 90 arc out the front, it could only ever hit things that were on the 50ish% of the table that is actually in its firing arc (assuming it has infinite range and ignoring cover), and this is all without moving it, every time you moved it forward you would shrink the % of the table that it could actually hit and if you moved it backward it would be fleeing that game and would be removed.

The only way that it could conceivably work is for an AT-AT head to be placed in the deployment zone and then it cannot move and can just fire from there. this would not be acceptable to most people so they would just not do it.

11 hours ago, Yodhrin said:

That depends entirely on whether they did the sliding scale for it or not.

If they did it in ~1:46 like most Legion stuff? Yeah, that'd do really well simply because there's no alternative, and it'd be the biggest "accurate"(ie, not a toy and with correct proportions) AT-AT full stop. If they drop the size down though, there are already model kits in the 1:52 and smaller range that cost a fraction of what a Legion AT-AT box would, so people who don't play Legion would have no reason to buy one. Also it's worth remembering that consumer 3D printing wasn't a thing when the WotC AT-AT came out and now it very much is.

It's a kit that would take a lot of resources to develop and manufacture, and while I'd love to see it, I don't think the opportunity cost in other cool stuff we could have that's more suitable for the scale of the game.

You underestimate Disney's ability to litigate and send DMCA takedowns if something becomes a conflict of interest. If 3d printed AT-ATs became an economic threat, you can bet your socks that they would all disappear from online sources in short order.

1 hour ago, 5particus said:

a full size AT-AT would take up about 15% of the table, even if it was standing, it is too big and would be unusable in game, it would be just over range 3 long and could only fire in a 90 arc out the front, it could only ever hit things that were on the 50ish% of the table that is actually in its firing arc (assuming it has infinite range and ignoring cover), and this is all without moving it, every time you moved it forward you would shrink the % of the table that it could actually hit and if you moved it backward it would be fleeing that game and would be removed.

The only way that it could conceivably work is for an AT-AT head to be placed in the deployment zone and then it cannot move and can just fire from there. this would not be acceptable to most people so they would just not do it.

It can also deploy troops and house a speeder bike afaik. As has been stated by myself before, of course an AT-AT would need to be placed in an Apocalypse style game type or have specially tooled game modes to direct play around it, such as a "Defend the AT-AT in the center" or even just straight up steal from Battlefront 2015 and have the AT-AT need to slowly walk across the board while the other opponent gets to either shoot it or call in periodic air support.

An AT-AT carries 5 bikes and 40 troops.

Two big differences between the WotC AT-AT and one produced for Legion: WotC models were all pre-painted, pre-assembled plastic, and the model was $50 US.

A Legion kit would be multi-part, unpainted, and probably $200 US. That's a HUGE difference. Especially when the Bandai kit is cheaper and smaller scale, so easier to fit on a shelf.

11 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Two big differences between the WotC AT-AT and one produced for Legion: WotC models were all pre-painted, pre-assembled plastic, and the model was $50 US.

A Legion kit would be multi-part, unpainted, and probably $200 US. That's a HUGE difference. Especially when the Bandai kit is cheaper and smaller scale, so easier to fit on a shelf.

If the Lego UCS sets are anything to go by, I don't think price is a major concern to Star Wars fans.

1 hour ago, Ilostmycactus said:

If the Lego UCS sets are anything to go by, I don't think price is a major concern to Star Wars fans.

Slight clarification, not to Lego Star Wars fans at least.
But for Lego the cost of setup is a LOT lower. They already produce the parts in widespread quantities, it's a matter of repackaging parts they already produce (with maybe a handful of new parts), not producing multiple molds since the AT-AT would probably consist of a number of sprues, with each sprue costing tens of thousands to produce if I recall correctly.
If there was a market for this scale of model, Bandai should have already produced it. They already produce the AT-ST and Snowspeeder in 1:48 scale.

I was pointing out that a comparison between the WotC model and a theoretical Legion model isn't accurate, since they are very different kinds of models.

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Slight clarification, not to Lego Star Wars fans at least.
But for Lego the cost of setup is a LOT lower. They already produce the parts in widespread quantities, it's a matter of repackaging parts they already produce (with maybe a handful of new parts), not producing multiple molds since the AT-AT would probably consist of a number of sprues, with each sprue costing tens of thousands to produce if I recall correctly.
If there was a market for this scale of model, Bandai should have already produced it. They already produce the AT-ST and Snowspeeder in 1:48 scale.

I was pointing out that a comparison between the WotC model and a theoretical Legion model isn't accurate, since they are very different kinds of models.

Your post was more directed at consumer access, which is what I was referring to. Sure molds can cost like 50k or more, for plastic. That doesn't mean it won't get produced. I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up in resin like titans already are. Do I think an AT-AT is a priority for the manufacturer right now? Probably not, for reasons we have already covered. Is it feasible? Yes. Would it be expensive? Absolutely. Would people buy it? Yes.

On 12/12/2020 at 5:40 PM, Ilostmycactus said:

Your post was more directed at consumer access, which is what I was referring to. Sure molds can cost like 50k or more, for plastic. That doesn't mean it won't get produced. I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up in resin like titans already are. Do I think an AT-AT is a priority for the manufacturer right now? Probably not, for reasons we have already covered. Is it feasible? Yes. Would it be expensive? Absolutely. Would people buy it? Yes.

AMG doesn't work with resin model manufacturers, so that would mean they would need a completely new relationship to produce a single kit. Very unlikely.
And for general consumer access, there is already consumer access to similar plastic models at a smaller scale, from a company that also produces models in "full" Legion scale already.

If market research indicated a wider, non-wargaming market for a 1:48ish AT-AT, Bandai would likely have already produced it.
Edit: It is also my understanding that the $54,000 US price tag is per SPRUE, not per kit. Fo a kit the size of an AT-AT, it would easily be over $100,000 US in just manufacturing.

I think the at-at is a bad idea.

Mainly for gaming reasons. AMG could totally make a scenario where such a vehicle is present but doesn't need a model.

I don't think such a model would sell that well. You're probably better off retro fitting a Hasbro toy and it would be cheaper.

FFG has not been good with distribution so far, I don't know that they make that much money on these huge models (did the Epic ships or Armadas SSD make that much?

16 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Slight clarification, not to Lego Star Wars fans at least.
But for Lego the cost of setup is a LOT lower. They already produce the parts in widespread quantities, it's a matter of repackaging parts they already produce (with maybe a handful of new parts), not producing multiple molds since the AT-AT would probably consist of a number of sprues, with each sprue costing tens of thousands to produce if I recall correctly.
If there was a market for this scale of model, Bandai should have already produced it. They already produce the AT-ST and Snowspeeder in 1:48 scale.

I was pointing out that a comparison between the WotC model and a theoretical Legion model isn't accurate, since they are very different kinds of models.

lol what? Bandai would not produce a 1:48 AT-AT ever. that would be way bigger than any model they make. 1:48 is the size of the huge kenner/hasbro toys.

Bandai produces a 1:144 AT-AT model because thats around the biggest size of models they like to make. Even a 1:72 AT-AT would be a little ambitious for them.

Revell did make a 1:72 AT-AT model though. They claimed it was 1:53 but its more like 1:72. its currently sold out.

WOTC made a 1:68 AT-AT as well. It sold out.

The kenner/hasbro AT-ATs also sell for quite a bit on ebay. Several hundred dollars for a complete one and the price keeps going up. So theres definitely still demand for them.

21 hours ago, 5particus said:

a full size AT-AT would take up about 15% of the table

it wouldnt be full size. it would be scaled down. 1:72 would work fine.

A 1:72 AT-AT would not take up that much space on a grand army table size of 6'x4'

At most a 1:72 AT-AT would have a 10"-12" base. And you could give it a reasonable maximum movement speed of 6" each turn. So the most it could move is 36" in one game. The table would be 4' wide. That works perfectly fine.

18 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Two big differences between the WotC AT-AT and one produced for Legion: WotC models were all pre-painted, pre-assembled plastic, and the model was $50 US.

A Legion kit would be multi-part, unpainted, and probably $200 US. That's a HUGE difference. Especially when the Bandai kit is cheaper and smaller scale, so easier to fit on a shelf.

If they can make an AT-ST model for a reasonable price they can certainly make a scaled down (1:72) AT-AT model for a reasonable price as well. It could reasonably retail for around $100-$125. Which is consistent with what models that big in other wargames cost.

The Revell 1:72 AT-AT model kit was like $80 I think? And that was a multi-part model kit. I think it was snap fit too.

20 hours ago, Ilostmycactus said:

You underestimate Disney's ability to litigate and send DMCA takedowns if something becomes a conflict of interest. If 3d printed AT-ATs became an economic threat, you can bet your socks that they would all disappear from online sources in short order.

Disney already got paid, they almost certainly don't give even the tiniest wet fart about third party stuff unless it ever became so prolific it actually threatened the commercial viability of the game(and thus, the licensing revenue) which isn't ever going to happen, both because third party stuff is arguably a net benefit to tabletop games and because the nature of FFG games makes playing without buying the official boxes difficult. As for their ability to eliminate kits from the internet, I don't see how they could. They never managed to eliminate people selling unofficial vehicle and starfighter kits even when the only way to make and sell them was to construct physical models, cast them in resin, and send them through the post, the idea they can prevent it now that the models are digital and many of them are free just doesn't fly. Hamper their distribution a little, maybe, with the attendant risk of Striesand Effect.

@Yodhrin Disney has been known to send their lawyers into artists' alley at conventions with a stack of Cease and Desists handing them out to any artist with Disney owned properties on a piece of art work, then stand at the booth until the offending pieces are removed.

They also shut down Space Rocks, a terrain maker for X-Wing and Armada:

https ://amp.reddit.com/r/StarWarsArmada/comments/3xop9b/space_rocks_cease_and_desist/

So there is a history of Disney caring.

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@Yodhrin Disney has been known to send their lawyers into artists' alley at conventions with a stack of Cease and Desists handing them out to any artist with Disney owned properties on a piece of art work, then stand at the booth until the offending pieces are removed.

They also shut down Space Rocks, a terrain maker for X-Wing and Armada:

https ://amp.reddit.com/r/StarWarsArmada/comments/3xop9b/space_rocks_cease_and_desist/

So there is a history of Disney caring.

I don't see anything on that reddit post but conjecture. Much like this thread.

There is this old thread:

The best explanation in that thread is that it's a EuroDisney thing. It's also possible in the instance of space rocks that they were making something that was going to be mass produced and sold (maybe it's still coming or has been abandoned over the years). We still have plenty of things for sale on Shapeways, Etsy and others. Then there's all the free things from places like thingiverse that continue to exist. I remember reading that Lucasfilm had a very hands off approach to fan made Star Wars stuff because Lucas believed in that and knew it was ultimately good for the brand. I realize that The Mouse is not Lucasfilm, but Lucasfilm is still basically the same entity it was before just under a cloud of evil now. Not to say that Disney doesn't have the last word on such things, but as long as all those 3rd parties continue to sell SW themed merchandise I won't be convinced that the hands off approach has changed.

@thestag I read the cease and desist that used to be up on the Space Rocks page.

The inciting elements were that they were selling an X-Wing scale Nebulon B frigate as well as wreckage terrain that was made by recasting X-Wing and Armada ships.

Also, let's not forget that Disney shut down the lady that was selling The Child patterns last year: https://wearefiberly.com/baby-yoda-crochet-pattern-copyright/

It comes down to how big of fish they are and whether Disney (or the license users) thinks it is worth pursuing.

@Yodhrin people forget that just because Disney doesn't, doesn't mean they can't or won't pursue legal action. Especially because of the prudence of defending your IP. My point is that consumer 3D printing isn't as much of a threat to Disney's ability to sell an AT-AT as you claim it is. We don't see how much they take down or how many DMCA's they send out. If printing suddenly became an obstacle, the models would just get taken off of thingiverse and elsewhere. Could people distribute the files themselves? Sure. But the moment they become widespread enough to be traceable Disney will just send out the DMCA again.

@Caimheul1313 if ffg could transfer from soft plastic to injection molding I don't see why AG can't invest in whatever equipment is needed for resin molding, especially because it's much cheaper. I used to be a part of the 40k community, and people absolutely will shell out 400 dollars for a large model like an AT-AT.

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@thestag I read the cease and desist that used to be up on the Space Rocks page.

The inciting elements were that they were selling an X-Wing scale Nebulon B frigate as well as wreckage terrain that was made by recasting X-Wing and Armada ships.

Also, let's not forget that Disney shut down the lady that was selling The Child patterns last year: https://wearefiberly.com/baby-yoda-crochet-pattern-copyright/

It comes down to how big of fish they are and whether Disney (or the license users) thinks it is worth pursuing.

Given those facts about spacerocks I can see why they were stopped. I'm surprised about the baby Yoda one but not disputing the fact that it happened. Considering how many things still exist out there it's odd why Darth Mickey would select that instance and leave so many others alone. I guess her audience and reach was big enough to garner attention. But it's not like The Mouse doesn't have the resources and legal team to stop every single third party from selling/distributing their wares. It leaves me with too many questions. Time will tell.

@thestag It's basically a giant game of wack a mole. Typically the bigger moles get hit while the small ones get ignored. Even with Disney's resources, there are only so many people in their legal department, so some stuff will get missed. Generally they go after the big stuff, or the slam dunk cases (obvious infringement like direct copies as opposed to "in a similar style" stuff).

And we don't know that they aren't looking at how to shut down Shapeways stores that infringe. The nature of the storefront might make it a bit harder to take down individual infringers. Also, just because we know how to find them, doesn't mean the legal team which might not be modelers (or tech savvy) can find it. It took awhile for Space Rocks to get taken down after all.

@Ilostmycactus Starting from scratch for a single model, or (more likely) finding a resin casting company to do the job for a single model isn't necessarily worthwhile. They have to at least reach the break even point for sales, and a company isn't likely to want the job of just a single model. GW keeps all their casting in house, and produces quite a large number of models in resin. The Warlord Titan is almost the same height (but not as long) for over $1,000. Neither FFG nor AMG do their own casting. They outsource to China.

Resin molds might be cheaper to produce initially, but they wear out significantly faster, and are more prone to warping and various kinds of miscasts. Given the number of issues in the old soft plastic (and even the current hard plastic), a resin AT-AT having the same kind of issues or more would go over like a lead balloon with the current customer service policies.