@costi Please do not feed the trolls...

1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

@costi Please do not feed the trolls...

you do realize youve become a troll yourself right?

the irony of someone contributing nothing productive to a discussion because all they do is complain about trolls isnt lost on people

@costi Don't feed the troll

On 11/22/2020 at 5:59 PM, jocke01 said:

I was gonna do some battle reports with double airspeeder before the buff and point reduction. I'm gonna prove they are solid...or possibly flying trash 😋 .

I was winning games consistently when they were full priced. So...yeah, if you don’t give your opponent a good thrashing, give it a good couple of goes.

On 11/21/2020 at 1:28 PM, Empire On Ice said:

A printer friendly RRG and some printable cards would be high on my list of obvious things FFG failed to provide in the 2 years they have had this game. Maybe new hands at the tiller will sort this out?

There are printable cards for the previous errata on the FFG website. I hope it's just a matter of time until they update the file.

On 11/20/2020 at 9:16 AM, Derrault said:

Good lord, 140 points for a T-47 with ground buzzer and surge to crit?!

Well that’s a baseline include.

When I saw the update (points and speeder change) I thought of you immediately, Derrault.

I hope you are enjoying your beloved speeders!

On 11/22/2020 at 8:55 PM, player5006253 said:

Also, are we all just gonna sleep on naked Imperial scouts?

I'm not, but I'm not going to to kinkshame you for it, either.

On 11/24/2020 at 7:52 AM, Mokoshkana said:

@costi Please do not feed the trolls...

Feed it. My sad life needs some entertainment! 😆

On 11/25/2020 at 8:04 AM, costi said:

There are printable cards for the previous errata on the FFG website. I hope it's just a matter of time until they update the file.

I don't think it is super likely for files on FFG to get updated anymore. Maybe se them on AMG, but I can't recall if they have "updated cards" for MCP...

On 12/1/2020 at 8:51 PM, colki said:

When I saw the update (points and speeder change) I thought of you immediately, Derrault.

I hope you are enjoying your beloved speeders!

Mentally I am, still waiting for it to be safe to congregate in stores again

On 11/23/2020 at 3:06 PM, Shadowhawk252 said:

Maybe I’m missing something, when did gar become a better version of the empire? The factions are built around entirely different concepts and purposes. The only overlap is a gun line.

but like I said maybe I’m missing something.

Well obviously superficially they both have white armor and the red save...so they must be identical! Lol.

Gar has always been a fusion faction; it has the armor of the imps and the offense of the rebels, and it pays through the nose for those things, costing more than either.

7 hours ago, Derrault said:

Gar has always been a fusion faction; it has the armor of the imps and the offense of the rebels, and it pays through the nose for those things, costing more than either.

fake news.

a unit of clonetroopers with a Z6 is only 75 points. That isnt paying through the nose. its inarguably one of the best bargains in the game.

Compare that to a 70 point stormtrooper unit with an RT97 and its not hard to see why GAR is a better version of Imperials. And to be fair GAR doesnt have a direct equivalent to shoretroopers yet but when they get their equivalent im sure theyll be vastly superior to shoretroopers as well.

pay through the nose lmao. i would gladly pay 5 extra points for token sharing and fire support. and black dice instead of white dice with surge to hit. thats not a downside its the best 5 point upgrade in the game.

Imperials are supposed to have some kindve weird suppression advantage or something. But suppression is almost entirely useless against both CIS and GAR. And its not much better against rebels with all their inspire X. The suppression game mechanic just doesnt work as intended. Imperials are basically GAR if you stripped away all of GARs unique game mechanics, made all their jedi speed 1 for no good reason, and gave them worse vehicles.

Imperials do have more model releases than GAR which does help Imperials a little, but every time GAR gets an equivalent model to an Imperial one, it ends up being better. Its only a matter of time before playing Imperials is 100% pointless. A troopbus is not gonna save the faction.

@Khobai I actually agree that imperials need more identity development, because the other factions have good identity development. Tbh the issue is probably best solved with interesting new units for imperials rather than points adjustment as the problem is not power but interest in the faction.

1 hour ago, HeavyLoader2 said:

@Khobai I actually agree that imperials need more identity development, because the other factions have good identity development. Tbh the issue is probably best solved with interesting new units for imperials rather than points adjustment as the problem is not power but interest in the faction.

the problem is both: lack of power and lack of interesting game mechanics

stormtroopers+RT97C for 70 points vs clonetroopers+Z6 for 75 points is a prime example of how imperial corps units are straight up weaker. for only 5 points more the clonetroopers get token sharing, fire support, and black dice. they get all that for 5 points?! certainly stormtroopers should cost less.

and its not just stormtroopers, every imperial unit that has a GAR equivalent is weaker. even speeder bikes are now weaker than the barc speeder after the barc speeder's cost got reduced. the barc speeder now has better firepower, thats less prone to degrading, its harder to kill for the same cost as imperial speeder bikes, and it has synergy with corps units by adding surge to hit to fire support attack pools. I think its great the barc speeder is better now, but why do speederbikes not cost less when theyre worse?

imperials have an identity: its suppression. the problem is its exceedingly weak and uninteresting.

1) units rolling off suppression is very RNG and can make it very hard to rely on suppression.
2) 3 out of 4 factions have game mechanics that blatantly ignore, circumvent, or reduce suppression.
3) there are no offensive keywords that interact/trigger off enemy units having suppression.

the best way to make imperials better is to fix suppression and give imperial units more ways to interact with the suppression tokens that are on enemy units. for example it would be cool if imperials had a game mechanic that could reroll X attack die if an enemy unit has X or more suppression or maybe even a game mechanic that lets an imperial unit remove 1 suppression from an enemy unit that has 2 or more suppression to upgrade an attack dice. sortve like marksman but not completely terrible.

Until those issues are addressed, Ive lost pretty much all interest in playing imperials aside from the occasional gimmicky list I think might be fun.

Clones with Z-6 don't shoot at R4, though.

29 minutes ago, costi said:

Clones with Z-6 don't shoot at R4, though.

Well, for one round they can. lol

13 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Well, for one round they can. lol

But you have to pay for Rex to get that.

21 minutes ago, costi said:

But you have to pay for Rex to get that.

I mean, sure, but it can be done, which is my point.

Plus Rex, being a commander (which must be included in all lists), and currently the cheapest commander, is a major part of the clone synergy. Let's not pretend like Rex is an extra cost in clone lists. Short of Obi-Ani jank, Rex is a very common part of clone lists and helps those lists meet list building requisites at optimal costs with optimal rewards.

5 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I mean, sure, but it can be done, which is my point.

Plus Rex, being a commander (which must be included in all lists), and currently the cheapest commander, is a major part of the clone synergy. Let's not pretend like Rex is an extra cost in clone lists. Short of Obi-Ani jank, Rex is a very common part of clone lists and helps those lists meet list building requisites at optimal costs with optimal rewards.

a commander is mandatory on an empire list as well and they can also support the stormtroopers, i don't see you adding them to bolster the stormtroopers when comparing them, if you are going to compare a unit with another unit then fine, compare that unit, if you are going to compare an army, then compare armies, don't compare armies to units as it just is not a fair comparison.

Stormtroopers with RT-97C get slightly more hits than a Phase 1 squad with Z6 on average (the difference is about the same even if you give both squads an aim), the main differences are Storms have range 4 where as clones have firesupport and have the ability to share tokens if at range 1 of another squad, the difference is 5 points more for the clones, this is costed appropriately in my view.

18 hours ago, costi said:

Clones with Z-6 don't shoot at R4, though.

that only matters for one round. after that everyone is in range 3 anyway. besides Rex lets you shoot at range 4 for the one round that matters.

17 hours ago, costi said:

But you have to pay for Rex to get that.

you know who the imperial 90 point commander is... Krennic lmao.

Rex is leagues better than Krennic for the same point cost.

Another good one is Vader vs Obiwan or Anakin lol. Vader is a joke.

When you bring commanders into the picture it becomes even more apparent how bad Imperials are compared to GAR.

11 hours ago, 5particus said:

Stormtroopers with RT-97C get slightly more hits than a Phase 1 squad with Z6 on average (the difference is about the same even if you give both squads an aim), the main differences are Storms have range 4 where as clones have firesupport and have the ability to share tokens if at range 1 of another squad, the difference is 5 points more for the clones, this is costed appropriately in my view.

token sharing and fire support are worth more than 5 points. I would gladly and unhesitantly pay 5 extra points for clonetroopers instead of stormtroopers. So would you. So would everyone. stormtroopers should definitely cost less.

and weve already covered how much better Rex is compared to the imperial equivalent of Krennic lmao. I would gladly trade Krennic for Rex without question. Whether Rex is undercosted or Krennic is overcosted is a matter of debate but theres definitely a power level disparity between the two that the rules update failed to adequately address.

GAR are fundamentally better than Imperials at virtually everything they share in common. Ive gone over a good number of examples. And that problem will get worse with time. Imperials are easily the weakest faction right now and got completely screwed over by the rules update by getting a bunch of meaningless buffs mostly to units that dont even matter.

Imperials definitely need their faction identity hashed out better and they need some meaningful buffs to key units.

6 hours ago, Khobai said:

that only matters for one round. after that everyone is in range 3 anyway. besides Rex lets you shoot at range 4 for the one round that matters.

you know who the imperial 90 point commander is... Krennic lmao.

Rex is leagues better than Krennic for the same point cost.

Another good one is Vader vs Obiwan or Anakin lol. Vader is a joke.

When you bring commanders into the picture it becomes even more apparent how bad Imperials are compared to GAR.

token sharing and fire support are worth more than 5 points. I would gladly and unhesitantly pay 5 extra points for clonetroopers instead of stormtroopers. So would you. So would everyone. stormtroopers should definitely cost less.

and weve already covered how much better Rex is compared to the imperial equivalent of Krennic lmao. I would gladly trade Krennic for Rex without question. Whether Rex is undercosted or Krennic is overcosted is a matter of debate but theres definitely a power level disparity between the two that the rules update failed to adequately address.

GAR are fundamentally better than Imperials at virtually everything they share in common. Ive gone over a good number of examples. And that problem will get worse with time. Imperials are easily the weakest faction right now and got completely screwed over by the rules update by getting a bunch of meaningless buffs mostly to units that dont even matter.

Imperials definitely need their faction identity hashed out better and they need some meaningful buffs to key units.

Yea when I saw they made Han 100 points and Rex was still 90 points I was like....really!? You make a great about Krennic as well as Vader. I mean just compare Obi's 3 command cards to Vaders 6 and it isnt even close to whose is better.

The one area I disagree with you is that Imperials didn't get meaningful buffs, they did. If you ignored GAR and looked at the other two factions Imperials stack up fine, they just don't have the tools to deal with the GAR gunline.

I'd like to see clone token sharing given one more tweak. Limit the number of tokens shared per roll to one token. It would be an easy wording change.

It's very unforgiving when your GAR opponent can stack up a bunch of aims and surges and then cohere so that one corps trooper squad can see the corner of a hero's silhouette and blow them off the board turn 1. No other faction can do that (except for tactical strike Imperials but thats another matter).

An alpha strike meta is bad for any game. Its gotten too easy to stack modifiers on single attacks and gettings crit results has also become too prevelant to the point where cover and dodges have been devalued.

18 hours ago, Uetur said:

Yea when I saw they made Han 100 points and Rex was still 90 points I was like....really!? You make a great about Krennic as well as Vader. I mean just compare Obi's 3 command cards to Vaders 6 and it isnt even close to whose is better.

The one area I disagree with you is that Imperials didn't get meaningful buffs, they did. If you ignored GAR and looked at the other two factions Imperials stack up fine, they just don't have the tools to deal with the GAR gunline.

What meaningful buffs do you think Imperials got?

The only Imperial buffs that mattered somewhat were Boba Fett and Scout Troopers getting cost reductions. They were solid buffs but neither was particularly meta-changing or elevated imperials out of worst faction status.

The Occupier Tank also benefitted from Open Transport but still isnt quite where it needs to be for 145+ points. I do think its currently better than the AT-ST though.

Lowering the point costs on the Dewback, AT-ST, and Vader was ultimately meaningless. Those units had issues that transcended point cost.

A then a lot of Imperial units that shouldve gotten point cost reductions didnt get them, like Speeder Bikes, Stormtroopers, Krennic, ISF, etc...

Quote

I mean just compare Obi's 3 command cards to Vaders 6 and it isnt even close to whose is better.

well to be fair Vader does kindve have an advantage in having 6 cards. Because operative Obiwan hasnt come out yet. But when operative obiwan does come out his 6 cards will be better than Vaders 6 cards. making the comparison look even worse for Vader. Vaders command cards are super underwhelming even his best command card makes him damage himself which sucks.

17 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

I'd like to see clone token sharing given one more tweak. Limit the number of tokens shared per roll to one token. It would be an easy wording change.

It's very unforgiving when your GAR opponent can stack up a bunch of aims and surges and then cohere so that one corps trooper squad can see the corner of a hero's silhouette and blow them off the board turn 1. No other faction can do that (except for tactical strike Imperials but thats another matter).

An alpha strike meta is bad for any game. Its gotten too easy to stack modifiers on single attacks and gettings crit results has also become too prevelant to the point where cover and dodges have been devalued.

I think the issue is more with fire support than token sharing. Fire support needs some kindve limiter so it cant just alphastrike characters and units off the board.

Fire support is one of those rules where the potential for abuse is going to keep growing over time as GAR gets more and more releases. Like when Fives came out and took fire support to a new level. The problem really needs to be nipped in the bud before it gets worse.

On 12/13/2020 at 12:15 AM, Khobai said:

What meaningful buffs do you think Imperials got?

The only Imperial buffs that mattered somewhat were Boba Fett and Scout Troopers getting cost reductions. They were solid buffs but neither was particularly meta-changing or elevated imperials out of worst faction status.

The Occupier Tank also benefitted from Open Transport but still isnt quite where it needs to be for 145+ points. I do think its currently better than the AT-ST though.

Lowering the point costs on the Dewback, AT-ST, and Vader was ultimately meaningless. Those units had issues that transcended point cost.

A then a lot of Imperial units that shouldve gotten point cost reductions didnt get them, like Speeder Bikes, Stormtroopers, Krennic, ISF, etc...

well to be fair Vader does kindve have an advantage in having 6 cards. Because operative Obiwan hasnt come out yet. But when operative obiwan does come out his 6 cards will be better than Vaders 6 cards. making the comparison look even worse for Vader. Vaders command cards are super underwhelming even his best command card makes him damage himself which sucks.

I actually think Obi has better command cards now at 3 versus Vader's 6 is what I was trying to say. I think your point that the Empire has a lot of poor units is very valid and comparing Krennic to Rex isn't really close.

I think of a meaningful buff as something that allows the Meta to shift for a faction or gives them answers to what other factions do. That is why the Dewback point reduction isn't as relevant because the Dewback doesn't hit hard and isn't flexible. Scout trooper full squads while interesting have to be protected with your orders which make them inflexible. The dream of 10b pierce 1 with an aim token, is really going to be 4-6b pierce 1 without an aim token.

The reduction in costs for extra troopers was a meaningful buff the Imps got. I think this is more significant for the Imperials than say the Rebels or CIS because of those red armor saves the stormies/snows have. If you compare a Z6 clone trooper squad with the extra unit you come in at 85 points versus 74 for the Empire. You could pop in specialists and Captains and still be cheaper. Then add in the DLT point reduction and you have Stormies being decent all around infantry units.

The Snowtrooper Ion weapon is useable now. This is a counter meta play but, if armor is as prevelant as I think it will be then the empire has a cheap and easy answer that doesn't hurt your list if you take 1 or 2 of them.

The occupier tank now fits in decent 11 activation Empire lists if you combine that with its change to transport costs you now have a heavy that is pretty cheap and flexible.

Boba Fett has always been too expensive for what he did but what he does is actually pretty good. Highly tanky, highly mobile and ignores cover when shooting. He can handle Jedi decently and his command cards while dated are useable. His point reduction makes him viable now.

Finally the empire can now choose to bid some points and set up favorable objectives, starting positions etc. Most clones lists can't do that now effectively with a similar problem for the CIS.

On 12/10/2020 at 6:57 PM, Khobai said:

fake news.

a unit of clonetroopers with a Z6 is only 75 points. That isnt paying through the nose. its inarguably one of the best bargains in the game.

Compare that to a 70 point stormtrooper unit with an RT97 and its not hard to see why GAR is a better version of Imperials. And to be fair GAR doesnt have a direct equivalent to shoretroopers yet but when they get their equivalent im sure theyll be vastly superior to shoretroopers as well.

pay through the nose lmao. i would gladly pay 5 extra points for token sharing and fire support. and black dice instead of white dice with surge to hit. thats not a downside its the best 5 point upgrade in the game.

Imperials are supposed to have some kindve weird suppression advantage or something. But suppression is almost entirely useless against both CIS and GAR. And its not much better against rebels with all their inspire X. The suppression game mechanic just doesnt work as intended. Imperials are basically GAR if you stripped away all of GARs unique game mechanics, made all their jedi speed 1 for no good reason, and gave them worse vehicles.

Imperials do have more model releases than GAR which does help Imperials a little, but every time GAR gets an equivalent model to an Imperial one, it ends up being better. Its only a matter of time before playing Imperials is 100% pointless. A troopbus is not gonna save the faction.

So, after that rambling bit of dissembling, the Rebel Troopers still cost 40, Stormtroopers still cost 44, and Phase I Clone troopers still cost 52 points, more than the most expensive than either and at the same cost as their more expensive core units (to which they are easily comparable)