2 hours ago, Dalae said:

But, what exactly is "to be good at hunting vehicles"? Yes, the average hits is 4, so the average wounds is 2 on a Saber/AAT.

With a Health of 9, you need 4-5 turns to bring those tanks down (IF the enemy has no repairing droids...). And we are confronting a 130+ points vehicle vs a 170+ points vehicle.

I honestly think the opponent can perfectly ignore the T-47 and keep hammering your white defense dice troopers with his tank.

My opinion is the T-47 alone is not enough to effectively counter the enemy tanks. It can be the main piece, but he definitely needs help if you want to eliminate enemy tanks on time.

Being able to potentially pivot that tank to face it's weak point to all those troops it's trying to hammer could end up providing some fun results.

It is going to be a fun and thematic piece in the Rebel arsenal and I'm looking forward to playing against it.

I’m just wondering if, realistically, the T47 isn’t supposed to destroy enemy vehicles so much as it is supposed to seriously hinder them. The harpoon is free now - damaging and then pivoting an enemy vehicle wastes an activation for them (pivoting back), and now that compulsory moves don’t have to be done first, you could do said pivot twice on a row (last/first activation).

Imagine the frustration and waste of activation economy for your opponent when they have to spend two whole actions (or a whole turn) just returning their tank to facing the right direction.

Getting the T-47 in position for the tow cable trick is complicated and, even with that, it has on average a 43,75% of success (red attack dice hitting, red defense dice failing)

A tank hunter with the "Ion X" keyword would be more reliable, but i suppose currently we will have to work with what we have.

2 hours ago, Critchley94 said:

I’m just wondering if, realistically, the T47 isn’t supposed to destroy enemy vehicles so much as it is supposed to seriously hinder them. The harpoon is free now - damaging and then pivoting an enemy vehicle wastes an activation for them (pivoting back), and now that compulsory moves don’t have to be done first, you could do said pivot twice on a row (last/first activation).

Imagine the frustration and waste of activation economy for your opponent when they have to spend two whole actions (or a whole turn) just returning their tank to facing the right direction.

From a rebel player who have used the harpoon quite a bit in the early days of legion. Not only do you need to put yourself in position without being blown out of the sky. Your attack needs to be without cover otherwise you have a 1/8 chance of hitting (2/8 with new rrg). Then your opponent still have a save so often 33% or 50% of ignoring your harpoon when you actually manage to hit then. In the rare instances I managed it either the at-st still did an aim shoot from spotter and another time, I couldn't get every unit out of arc with a 90° pivot. He was either gonna shoot some of my troopers or my speeder without moving.

Granted it is still a very fun thing to try and do, but it is such a jank ability. Very hard to pull off and it rarely have a big effect and of course not much more than a suppressor vs non vehicle lists. I say stick with the ground buzzer 🤣

Little late, but as far as dedicated rebel AT vehicles go I'd always bring two laser RTs since day one if I was worried about armor. With those now only being 65 points a piece now, they still do that job better than a T-47 in that regard. Granted that means you can't spam tauntauns though.

Lots of very strong opinions about points changes that haven’t even seen a board yet (outside of maybe one game). I feel like the changes have given Empire a fresh breath. I’m excited for what I can do in list tinkering and hopefully I can get troops to a board soon to test it out.

17 hours ago, jocke01 said:

From a rebel player who have used the harpoon quite a bit in the early days of legion. Not only do you need to put yourself in position without being blown out of the sky. Your attack needs to be without cover otherwise you have a 1/8 chance of hitting (2/8 with new rrg). Then your opponent still have a save so often 33% or 50% of ignoring your harpoon when you actually manage to hit then. In the rare instances I managed it either the at-st still did an aim shoot from spotter and another time, I couldn't get every unit out of arc with a 90° pivot. He was either gonna shoot some of my troopers or my speeder without moving.

Granted it is still a very fun thing to try and do, but it is such a jank ability. Very hard to pull off and it rarely have a big effect and of course not much more than a suppressor vs non vehicle lists. I say stick with the ground buzzer 🤣

On what board is someone fielding a tank or AT-ST with cover 😳

2 hours ago, Derrault said:

On what board is someone fielding a tank or AT-ST with cover 😳

My boards I guess :P. The tank can get cover from alot of stuff due to the low profile it has, it has it easier than at-rt's in alot of cases. AT-ST not as easy I grant you that.

On 11/21/2020 at 9:29 AM, SnooSnarry said:

It was unknowable that this thread would be a dumpster fire because of Khobai.

This thread was already a dumpster fire the moment people started lying to themselves that the T-47 was good now.

All I did was point out the truth: that the T47 is in fact still not good.

23 hours ago, Critchley94 said:

I’m just wondering if, realistically, the T47 isn’t supposed to destroy enemy vehicles so much as it is supposed to seriously hinder them. The harpoon is free now - damaging and then pivoting an enemy vehicle wastes an activation for them (pivoting back), and now that compulsory moves don’t have to be done first, you could do said pivot twice on a row (last/first activation).

Imagine the frustration and waste of activation economy for your opponent when they have to spend two whole actions (or a whole turn) just returning their tank to facing the right direction.

The harpoon doesnt hinder anything. By the time you setup a shot with the harpoon the enemy vehicle is likely already in a position where it no longer needs to move forward anymore and loses nothing by having to pivot. Besides with only one dice, and no pierce, the harpoon is extremely inconsistent and struggles to even damage vehicles; Let alone hinder them in any meaningful way.

The harpoon needed pierce to increase its consistency. Another one of my suggestions was to give the harpoon immobilize X so it could actually hinder vehicles. Immobilized vehicles cant pivot so you can see the obvious synergy between pivoting a vehicle and immobilizing it. Without those keywords the harpoon remains largely useless despite being free.

9 minutes ago, Khobai said:

But the harpoon remains useless despite being free

It isn't free. You have to take a T-47 to get one.

29 minutes ago, Jedirev said:

It isn't free. You have to take a T-47 to get one.

Theres also the opportunity cost of not taking the groundbuzzer. Assuming youre committed to taking a T-47 for some confounded reason.

I think the groundbuzzer is objectively better than the harpoon and I would always pay the extra 10 points for it if I took a T-47. The groundbuzzer can be fire supported by the veteran's medium blaster and thats not the worst attack pool.

Its just a shame that none of the harpoon's problems were actually addressed.

20 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Little late, but as far as dedicated rebel AT vehicles go I'd always bring two laser RTs since day one if I was worried about armor. With those now only being 65 points a piece now, they still do that job better than a T-47 in that regard. Granted that means you can't spam tauntauns though.

The minimum range on the AT-RT's laser is still unnecessarily dumb. Another example of how lowering points cost doesnt always fix things. They shouldve just removed the minimum range and rebalanced the laser's cost based on it no longer having a minimum range.

Thats what frustrated me the most about this update, the unwillingness to actually change cards, especially in instances where lowering the points cost didnt fix any issues. Vader (both Vaders) probably being the best example of that.

5 hours ago, evo454 said:

Lots of very strong opinions about points changes that haven’t even seen a board yet (outside of maybe one game). I feel like the changes have given Empire a fresh breath. I’m excited for what I can do in list tinkering and hopefully I can get troops to a board soon to test it out.

The changes have given the Imperials a fresh breath but not for the reason you think. Imperials actually benefitted more from GAR being nerfed than anything else. Because GAR was always the hardest matchup for Imperials, since they were essentially a better version of Imperials. Now that GAR has been taken down a notch the disparity in the matchup has closed up somewhat due to GAR's activation count being lower. Its far more likely for Imperials to have activation advantage over GAR now than it was before.

The point cost reductions the imperials received were mostly ineffective though. The HH12, Vader, Dewback, AT-ST, Occupier Tank all had issues that transcended points cost. Boba Fett is back however which is fantastic, but thats the only change to Imperials that really made me happy. I wouldve liked to see a Field Commander option for Imperials as well (Weiss couldve fulfilled that role if they changed him to have Field Commander and Arsenal +1 passively)

I was gonna do some battle reports with double airspeeder before the buff and point reduction. I'm gonna prove they are solid...or possibly flying trash 😋 .

Also, are we all just gonna sleep on naked Imperial scouts?

48 points for that dice pool is pretty incredible, even at range 2.

5 minutes ago, player5006253 said:

Also, are we all just gonna sleep on naked Imperial scouts?

48 points for that dice pool is pretty incredible, even at range 2.

they must be great in skirmish because of the low points plus the smaller board helps the range problem.

3 hours ago, player5006253 said:

Also, are we all just gonna sleep on naked Imperial scouts?

48 points for that dice pool is pretty incredible, even at range 2.

Their small unit size and poor defense save means they still struggle to stay alive which isnt so great in an objective based game which favors tougher units.

Scouts being 48 points now does make taking a heavy weapon with them more plausible. Adding that fifth trooper increases the unit's overall survivability by 25%. 5 scouts in light cover getting bumped upto heavy cover isnt so bad for survivability.

I think the best way to employ Scouts now isnt to use them naked but rather to take a Saboteur (or Sniper) with them. Even though you lose some efficiency, the loss in efficiency is probably worth it because theyre more likely to be able to hold onto an objective when theres 5 models as opposed to 4. The unit can also generate more suppression with either of the heavy weapons which can sometimes pay for itself. Suppression is one of those iffy game mechanics that usually does nothing but occasionally proves pivotal in shutting down a key enemy unit. I also think the Saboteur is probably the better option than the Sniper since the Saboteur wont slow you down from getting to range 2, whereas the extra range on the sniper is gonna make you wanna forego double moving to take sniper shots.

I do think scouts can work in lists specifically designed to support them (having other units with scout or infiltrate helps with target saturation). And scouts should work well in conjunction with Boba Fett now that hes back from the Sarlacc, since Boba Fett also likes to be at range 2 or closer if hes flamethrowering.

The cost reduction lets you add a saboteur now for roughly the same point cost scouts were before (15 points per model). Scouts were always a situational unit but before they werent quite expendable enough to be worth the risk. Now the risk aspect is significantly lessened, especially with adding a saboteur to the unit.

I give them 3 out of 5 sad nerds crying about me trolling.

18 hours ago, Jedirev said:

It isn't free. You have to take a T-47 to get one.

not in my games. My Ewok army takes them over the MLP Ion gun.

Anyone thinking CIS will be the new top dog faction? They were probably the second best pre-RRG and they only got buffs this round.

3 minutes ago, AsmallChicken said:

Anyone thinking CIS will be the new top dog faction? They were probably the second best pre-RRG and they only got buffs this round.

oh yeah for sure,

Personally i think that the rankings are going to be

CIS

GAR/Rebels

Empire

1 hour ago, 5particus said:

oh yeah for sure,

Personally i think that the rankings are going to be

CIS

GAR/Rebels

Empire

Poor Empire, no unit got enough of a buff to make up for the nerf to Shoretroopers

Shoretroopers only got nerfed by 2 points if you take the max unit. Its hardly a nerf.

Old: Shoretroopers+T21B+Shoretrooper + Mortar = 133 points

New: Shoretroopers+T21B+Shoretrooper + Mortar = 135 points

OMG 2 POINTS ITS THE END OF COMPETITIVE IMPERIAL LISTS FOREVERRRR!!!!!!!!!!11111

Imperials are still bottom tier, but the reason isnt Shoretroopers. Imperials are bottom tier because GAR is still a better version of Imperials. Although the disparity has lessened some with the nerfs to GAR.

Since the rules update obviously didnt fix imperials, the only real way to fix them now would be to give them a really strong new unit thats fundamentally game changing. Something like Dark Troopers for example.

3 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Shoretroopers only got nerfed by 2 points if you take the max unit. Its hardly a nerf.

Old: Shoretroopers+T21B+Shoretrooper + Mortar = 133 points

New: Shoretroopers+T21B+Shoretrooper + Mortar = 135 points

OMG 2 POINTS ITS THE END OF COMPETITIVE IMPERIAL LISTS FOREVERRRR!!!!!!!!!!11111

Imperials are still bottom tier but not because of shoretroopers.

Shores + heavy + mortar is 125. You also missed that the heavy went up by 3 points, so the whole set is up by 5.

The problem is, it is still the cheapest 2 activations (2 storms with DLT are 132 points), so the Empire simply got a tax on their cheapest (and very effective) corps.

I understand the logic (make people take something other than Shores) but for that to work the other options need to be comparable in cost, not more expensive. Otherwise there's little incentive to take them.

1 minute ago, costi said:

Shores + heavy + mortar is 125. You also missed that the heavy went up by 3 points, so the whole set is up by 5.

The problem is, it is still the cheapest 2 activations (2 storms with DLT are 132 points), so the Empire simply got a tax on their cheapest (and very effective) corps.

I understand the logic (make people take something other than Shores) but for that to work the other options need to be comparable in cost, not more expensive. Otherwise there's little incentive to take them.

They were including the extra trooper which got a price reduction

I was talking about the max unit. do you see where I said max unit.

the way the point costs were changed encourages you to take max units now. its more efficient.

The logic is not to to force people take something other than shores (3 units of shores will still very much be a thing). The logic is that maxed out units should be more cost efficient than units that arnt maxed out. which is exactly how it should be.

21 minutes ago, costi said:

The problem is, it is still the cheapest 2 activations (2 storms with DLT are 132 points), so the Empire simply got a tax on their cheapest (and very effective) corps.

I understand the logic (make people take something other than Shores) but for that to work the other options need to be comparable in cost, not more expensive. Otherwise there's little incentive to take them.

But so did GAR. So its not really the problem you make it out to be.

Power levels are entirely relative. If both imperials and GAR get nerfed in the same way it ends up being largely moot.

The shoretrooper nerf was insignificant and will not contribute to the reason why Imperials are underperforming. Imperials are underperforming because GAR is still a better version of the same faction in every way that matters.

Maybe I’m missing something, when did gar become a better version of the empire? The factions are built around entirely different concepts and purposes. The only overlap is a gun line.

but like I said maybe I’m missing something.

32 minutes ago, Shadowhawk252 said:

Maybe I’m missing something, when did gar become a better version of the empire? The factions are built around entirely different concepts and purposes. The only overlap is a gun line.

but like I said maybe I’m missing something.

gar has always been a better version of empire. thats why empire consistently has a very high loss rate against gar.

the factions are supposed to be built around different concepts and purposes. the problem is suppression is rather weak as a game mechanic when you have more than one faction (gar included) that can basically ignore suppression outright.

the empire needs a new shtick because the whole suppression thing doesnt work. it would be cool if empire got new keywords that somehow interacted with suppression and that would be the ideal way to fix them.