9 minutes ago, CountBlah said:

Personally, I think there's some mental gymnastics on the split out of "miniature games" to AMG.

How do these miniature games really differ from something like Descent? Yeah you can find some distinctions but the lines blur quickly. Descent also had many releases over multiple years and was very unpainted miniature focused. FFG has a history of miniature heavy board games, so really what's the distinction? If it was the "hobby" level games that require assembly and painting then sure, but X-Wing and Armada are effectively board games played on a mat or table (Wings of War was just a board game as well). Honestly, this just seems like an arbitrary definition to defend or explain the corporate move.

You could argue that these miniature games are more "open-ended" in terms of future releases, but I don't think that's completely accurate. Descent 1rst and 2nd ed kept releasing expansions so long as it was supported by sales. Is that really any different than how Armada is handled?

So to sum up Asmodee's clear direction with these games going forward.

- Games that require miniature assembly and painting are miniature games (AMG).

- Games that have miniatures that do not require assembly or painting, and are played on mats with cardboard accessories are also miniature games (AMG).

- Games that have miniatures that do not require assembly, and are not painted, and involve cardboard accessories but not mats are board games (FFG).

- Games that are card based and played on mats with cardboard accessories, like Keyforged, are also board games (FFG).

Yeah the distinctions are incredibly clear on what will be handled by FFG vs Atomic going forward.

I have always been under the impression as to whether or not something is a board game or a miniatures game is whether or not the playing area has spaces already defined on it. Risk is a board game which until recently used abstractions for soldiers. Risk boards have spaces. Axis and Allies is also a board game because though it has miniature soldiers for pieces the board has spaces the same way Risk boards have spaces. Imperial Assault was not a miniatures game because the playing area had spaces. Rebellion - board game. X-wing no spaces. Armada and Legion no spaces.

15 hours ago, Mesrob said:

You know what? Barnes and Noble this past summer had a firesale on all of their Xwing stuff. Deep discounts. The manager at my local Barnes and Noble told me all the stores were doing a "reset" with xwing. Xwing has now been moved to a side shelf instead of having its own prominent space. Funny that this announcement was close to the summer sale. I wonder if they knew changes were coming . . . . .

Barnes and Noble also isn’t carrying the new waves.

22 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

I wouldn’t assume anything. Anything said 8 months ago is worthless as the world has changed completely since then. But I think this change wouldn’t be happening if X-Wing sales were satisfactory - I’m pretty sure things are going very badly and they’re in ‘rescue or ditch’ mode.

Its possible we will never see another X-Wing release, it’s possible we will see 3rd Edition, it’s possible we barely notice the change at all.

But all bets are off.

If it was just X-Wing being moved, I'd be a lot warier about the shift in company, but with Armada and Legion moving over to AMG as well it does feel like consolidating related types of product lines into specific companies focused on that type of product rather than anything else. I don't really have a particularly clear idea what Armada or X-Wing sales are like right now, but Legion seems to be selling very well from both local anecdotal evidence and the ICv2 top 5 rankings.

6 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I have always been under the impression as to whether or not something is a board game or a miniatures game is whether or not the playing area has spaces already defined on it. Risk is a board game which until recently used abstractions for soldiers. Risk boards have spaces. Axis and Allies is also a board game because though it has miniature soldiers for pieces the board has spaces the same way Risk boards have spaces. Imperial Assault was not a miniatures game because the playing area had spaces. Rebellion - board game. X-wing no spaces. Armada and Legion no spaces.

Exactly. Both classes have been around forever. Codified rulesets for miniature wargames without spaces have been in use from the 18th century at least, IIRC. Chess is a wargame with miniatures and spaces, as is IA.

2 hours ago, Canopus said:

Speculation: AMG introduces new X-Wing product lines aimed at a different audience. A solo mode is in development already. Max was heavily hinting at campaign play in the Crabbok interview. This might be simpler without in-house boardgame competition.

The differentiated products I really want to see in X-Wing:

• Campaign box (preferably HotAC style)
• X-wing Racing box (based on the Star Wars: Resistance's racing competition, with 4-5 "racer" ships - the "Aces" of the series. Ships, upgrades and pilots compatible with X-wing. Fireball not included, but you could use it in the game mode)

1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

I have always been under the impression as to whether or not something is a board game or a miniatures game is whether or not the playing area has spaces already defined on it. Risk is a board game which until recently used abstractions for soldiers. Risk boards have spaces. Axis and Allies is also a board game because though it has miniature soldiers for pieces the board has spaces the same way Risk boards have spaces. Imperial Assault was not a miniatures game because the playing area had spaces. Rebellion - board game. X-wing no spaces. Armada and Legion no spaces.

Battlelore, had unpainted miniatures, but played as a wargame on a board with defined spaces. It's a board game rather than miniatures, fair enough.

FFG had their various Disk Wars lines decades back. Cardboard based war games essentially, not played on a board but on a table like other war games. So with no actual miniatures, just cardboard on a table it's potentially a miniature game by this definition. Or is it a board game because it has no miniatures at all?

Is this definition about the inclusion of miniatures, or about their movement on a board? Does it have to include both miniatures and open movement?

Chess is the perfect example of where this breaks down further. Yes it's on a board, but only to define the movement of it's pieces, so it's a board game. Remove the board, redefine the movement of each chess piece with a strict movement template (sort of like XWing does...), same exact game but is it now a miniature game (play it with 2D cardboard cutouts to further confuse)?

I'm poking at it, because I don't see such clear distinctions in games designs, which is why it's so easy to break them down with some simple questions. FFG has often released games that blurred the lines between designs, so I'm not too excited that the new corporate overloads think game "types" should be silo-ed into different corporate arms based on arbitrary/questionable definitions.

1 hour ago, Tbetts94 said:

Barnes and Noble also isn’t carrying the new waves.

Stores that aren't specialised for games/miniatures often do this when THEY see sales drop-offs. It just means no one is going to THAT company to buy the product, not that it isn't selling at all.

A year ago Forbidden Planet in London fire-saled all their Batman Miniatures Game stock and don't sell it anymore. But that's because it was a random, weird amount of stock, the only game of the type they sold AND they over-RRP'd the prices. Wasn't anything to do with the sales of the game overall.

I wouldn't see the B&N sales/no stock as anything major.

I also think that isolating games in their own styles is bad.

Cross-pollination of ideas between genres has been great in the past, and that is much easier if the developers of a game can interact or even participate with other teams that work on radically different projects.

X-wing is a miniature game, but it uses with cards, and as HotAC has shown, it could benefits of some boardgame concepts like cooperative or asymmetrical play.

What things will we miss when this flow of ideas ceases?

10 minutes ago, InterceptorMad said:

I wouldn't see the B&N sales/no stock as anything major.

It could possibly be them being removed as a vendor by Asmodee. Depends on if X-Wing is the only Asmodee product they're stopping carrying though.

10 minutes ago, CountBlah said:

Battlelore, had unpainted miniatures, but played as a wargame on a board with defined spaces. It's a board game rather than miniatures, fair enough.

FFG had their various Disk Wars lines decades back. Cardboard based war games essentially, not played on a board but on a table like other war games. So with no actual miniatures, just cardboard on a table it's potentially a miniature game by this definition. Or is it a board game because it has no miniatures at all?

Is this definition about the inclusion of miniatures, or about their movement on a board? Does it have to include both miniatures and open movement?

Chess is the perfect example of where this breaks down further. Yes it's on a board, but only to define the movement of it's pieces, so it's a board game. Remove the board, redefine the movement of each piece with a strict movement template (sort of like XWing does...), same exact game but is it now a miniature game (play it with 2D cardboard cutouts to further confuse)?

I'm poking at it, because I don't see such clear distinctions in games designs, which is why it's so easy to break them down with some simple examples. FFG has often released games that blurred the lines between designs, so I'm not too excited that the new corporate overloads think game "types" should be silo-ed into different corporate arms based on arbitrary/questionable definitions.

I find your protestations specious and disingenuous. You seem to be arguing that the X-wing MINIATURES Game is not in fact a miniatures game.

This is interesting news, but I will take a wait and see attitude. I do hope a Razorcrest gets produced soon, I’m looking forward to that ship in particular.

22 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I find your protestations specious and disingenuous. You seem to be arguing that the X-wing MINIATURES Game is not in fact a miniatures game.

Way to find the bold keys, always trying to add to the discussion. You do realize that the title had more to do with differentiating the X-Wing game from the other products (video games and others) already in the market? X-Wing as a game and in particular it's use of 3d pieces and movement were all done first in Wings of War, which didn't call out MINIATURES in it's title, and was just sold alongside all the other boardgames. Think of all the confusion that caused!

But to actually respond in a more genuine manner to your flippant response. X-wing as a design is far more than that, it also has collectible aspects (which you'll notice it doesn't call out in it's name). That collectible nature adds all kinds of design complexities. As does that competitive nature of X-Wing. Shoehorning it into a "miniature" group that primarily has a history with a very different type of squad based, casual game, does seem problematic to me.

Wow, I have seldom seen greater unwarranted panic. Y’all need to *calm down*.

It’s too bad that capitalism works the way it does, and that there even exist companies which do things like buy smaller companies with the sole intention of cutting a whole bunch of jobs, streamlining them, increasing their margins and raising the bottom line, just to sell them in 2-5 years for a massive profit. I find it vulgar and gross and soulless and crass. But it is what it is. It’s seldom good news for the people who work for the companies that are bought, but it doesn’t mean that the product lines suffer. Sometimes it’s actually really good for them.

As someone pointed out earlier, if Asmodee were planning to simply cancel Legion, X-Wing, and Armada, why the **** would they bother to shuffle them off to another studio? It’s a big hassle for nothing, and the reorganization is going to cost money. When you’re held by a firm whose sole objective is to make money, you don’t usually spend money for no reason. These games will almost certainly continue.

18 hours ago, Nyxen said:

Sorry, /another/ 4 die turret, probably on an agile small base with high initiative and plenty of linked actions

You mean ion cannon Kavil with Han gunner?

2 minutes ago, Antipodean Ork said:

You mean ion cannon Kavil with Han gunner?

Since when is Kavil an agile ship, especially if you’re triggering Han gunner? 🤣

1 minute ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Since when is Kavil an agile ship, especially if you’re triggering Han gunner? 🤣

sorry, I forgot r4 Astromech....

https://www.atomicmassgames.com/starwars-qa?fbclid=IwAR3a7lv2Z7m_7HH6oirGpBU7xzQHNWw8XqhUKfRnQsnvllGKW0TBV4bi70s

Some information on what's happening

2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

I have always been under the impression as to whether or not something is a board game or a miniatures game is whether or not the playing area has spaces already defined on it. Risk is a board game which until recently used abstractions for soldiers. Risk boards have spaces. Axis and Allies is also a board game because though it has miniature soldiers for pieces the board has spaces the same way Risk boards have spaces. Imperial Assault was not a miniatures game because the playing area had spaces. Rebellion - board game. X-wing no spaces. Armada and Legion no spaces.

So you’d call Heroclix a board game, but the old Mage Knight (not the newer one that’s explicitly a board game) is a miniatures game, despite having nearly the same rules and entirely the same distribution method?

7 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

https://www.atomicmassgames.com/starwars-qa?fbclid=IwAR3a7lv2Z7m_7HH6oirGpBU7xzQHNWw8XqhUKfRnQsnvllGKW0TBV4bi70s

Some information on what's happening

That is more than we knew before. However, I do not find it at all conducive to allaying my fears.

Quote

If we’re doing the job right, and staying true to our ethos as a studio, changes will most certainly happen. But those changes will always be in service of making great games even better. I should also point out that any change process will always be measured and highly considerate.

And that means what exactly? Nothing. Tells us nothing. Standard boilerplate. And this

Quote

These games have solid fan bases made up of people who have invested their hard-earned money, and more importantly, their time and creativity, into creating armies, squadrons, and fleets that are unique reflections of who they are.

combined with the use of "hobby miniatures" is worrying if you don't want to paint your ships as "hobby" typically gets used with things that need assembly and painting.

4 hours ago, Jarval said:

Short answer? Yes. Asmodee confirmed in an interview with Team Covenant that they've got X-Wing/Armada/Legion products mapped out with LFL through until 2023.

This makes a lot of sense. 2023 That is the 5 year mark, which is a pretty standard point to evaluate continuing or or do a new edition.

4 hours ago, feltipern1 said:

Can anybody give me any reason to think that there's even a need for X-Wing 2.5 or 3.0 at this point?

I can think of a few reasons, to various degrees of 'throw out your cardboard.' I think we don't have to worry about this for a while (look for when we start expecting announcements for the 2023 product line for when this might be a more immediate issue), and the ways this can be implemented prooooobably don't require a new core set purchase, but it feels like it has to happen eventually.

The big one is trying to introduce an objective based mode, which could come with a lot of other system updates or even a desire to increase the standard durability of all ships in the game to avoid the 'Aces in epic' problem. This doesn't necessarily require a total relaunch with a new CC, but that is definitely a possibility.

2.0 CCs may also be part of a 2.5 relaunch. A lot of CC content is just... bad and makes the game feel like its a bad Star Wars game. For example, the fact that pretty much no iconic rebel character from the OT is seeing play right now, and some actively are 'intended to be bad' or are super niche, like Luke Gunner, or Lando outside of Han, is kinda a problem. I wouldn't be too shocked if they made like... a 'rebels reinforcements' pack that came with a bunch of updated cardboard basically intended to 'replace' the conversion kit, sorta like the 'core 2.0 relaunch' of Android Netrunner.

Also, to be clear, Atomic Mass seem like cool people who understand quite well why people like the IPs they play. Crisis protocol is... pretty **** solid of a game in making you feel not like an idiot for liking Black Widow or whatever your favorite hero or team is. It doesn't really have an 'F tier' like X-wing does. So I am not too worried regardless of what they do, be it a 2.5, 3.0, or nothing. There are a lot of angles this company could take to improve the game. I think a 2.5 soft-relaunch sometime in the next few years is the most likely outcome, and I suspect faction support will get better as a result of this change.

25 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

That is more than we knew before. However, I do not find it at all conducive to allaying my fears.

Actually, this makes me feel a lot better:

These games have solid fan bases made up of people who have invested their hard-earned money, and more importantly, their time and creativity, into creating armies, squadrons, and fleets that are unique reflections of who they are.

We’re a studio made up of people who love and engage in the hobby daily. We deeply understand that kind of investment on a personal level, and we’re committed to honoring and valuing it in everything we do.

I mean, it is of course a potentially empty promise, but the infantry doesn't charge if you scream "We're all gonna die!! Who's with me??!!"

Nevertheless, since I just finally bought a second Imperial Conversion Kit just last week so I could play Epic this Friday, I'm in for the ride.

1 minute ago, Matanui3 said:

So you’d call Heroclix a board game, but the old Mage Knight (not the newer one that’s explicitly a board game) is a miniatures game, despite having nearly the same rules and entirely the same distribution method?

Yes. I would call the old Mage Knight a miniatures game and Heroclix a board game.

I am not distinguishing miniatures and board games by which rules they use or whether they have rules in common but by spaces being marked on the board. This is by no means some sort of uncommon convention that I've pulled from my backside.

That a game piece can be a miniature of something is not what determines whether the game piece belongs to a miniatures game.

38 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

https://www.atomicmassgames.com/starwars-qa?fbclid=IwAR3a7lv2Z7m_7HH6oirGpBU7xzQHNWw8XqhUKfRnQsnvllGKW0TBV4bi70s

Some information on what's happening

Interesting. No mentioning of staff moving with the game - still negotiating?

I wonder what kind of other SW miniature game they want to make. Large ships, small ships, infantry and heroes - done. Missions - done (Imperial Assault). Krayt dragon hunting?

4 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Actually, this makes me feel a lot better:

These games have solid fan bases made up of people who have invested their hard-earned money, and more importantly, their time and creativity, into creating armies, squadrons, and fleets that are unique reflections of who they are.

We’re a studio made up of people who love and engage in the hobby daily. We deeply understand that kind of investment on a personal level, and we’re committed to honoring and valuing it in everything we do.

I mean, it is of course a potentially empty promise, but the infantry doesn't charge if you scream "We're all gonna die!! Who's with me??!!"

While I'm neutral on this entire thing I find myself wondering how in the heck these blobs of marketing speak both make you feel better about the reorganization and present a "promise" in any way? All he's really said in his parts of the entire QA, of which he has the largest portion, is "We're just like you. Trust me." and "Expect the games to change." The guy comes off as a politician saying something close enough to what people want to hear while not actually committing to anything solid.

23 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

I think my purchasing of any more X-Wing miniatures is on hold until further notice. Until I see a stable fundamental organizational response on the direction of X-Wing and how exactly the new development team is comprised.

I think the tough call here is going to be the dramatic price increase across the board. Crisis Protocol is not an affordable game. My fear with this whole move is that we can probably expect all prices to go up by 1/3 if not double in price.