6 minutes ago, bllaw said:

i wasn't saying that since Jerusalem exists then Jesus Christ is the savior of the world. I was simply saying that the bible, as a historical document, is true. You were saying it's just made up, which it isn't

Something can be made up and still reference things that happen. That's ubiquitous in writing and was something I didn't actually think it would have to be clarified.

4 minutes ago, All Shields Forward said:

Something can be made up and still reference things that happen. That's ubiquitous in writing and was something I didn't actually think it would have to be clarified.

Sorry just trying to make sure I understand what you mean...you think that the entirety of the bible was completely made up? Makes sense to me for people to believe that the Jews were delusional in their belief of a God and the apostles made up the story of Jesus but to believe that the entire biblical canon is made up just doesnt make a lot of sense to me. Why would so much work be put into preserving texts such as the dead sea scrolls and why would so many copies of been made of a made up book so many years ago when books were very hard to make and come by? It just doesn't add up to me

5 minutes ago, bllaw said:

Sorry just trying to make sure I understand what you mean...you think that the entirety of the bible was completely made up? Makes sense to me for people to believe that the Jews were delusional in their belief of a God and the apostles made up the story of Jesus but to believe that the entire biblical canon is made up just doesnt make a lot of sense to me. Why would so much work be put into preserving texts such as the dead sea scrolls and why would so many copies of been made of a made up book so many years ago when books were very hard to make and come by? It just doesn't add up to me

The point is people referencing things happening around them 2000 years ago doesn't mean that the fantastical elements in their writings is true. In fact the lack of any in depth knowledge of events occuring in regions and continents not known to people living in the middle east 2000 years ago should be a red flag.

The amount of effort doesn't equate to proof. And when used as proof that the Bible is real is a very Eurocentric argument. How do you explain other religions texts? The eastern Taoists who slowly mummified themselves while alive. The pyramids of Egypt and South America that served as a path into the afterlife. People will do great things in the name of faith and their belief in an afterlife.

21 minutes ago, All Shields Forward said:

The point is people referencing things happening around them 2000 years ago doesn't mean that the fantastical elements in their writings is true. In fact the lack of any in depth knowledge of events occuring in regions and continents not known to people living in the middle east 2000 years ago should be a red flag.

The amount of effort doesn't equate to proof. And when used as proof that the Bible is real is a very Eurocentric argument. How do you explain other religions texts? The eastern Taoists who slowly mummified themselves while alive. The pyramids of Egypt and South America that served as a path into the afterlife. People will do great things in the name of faith and their belief in an afterlife.

There's really no way to prove one way or the other whether anything as old as the Bible is truth or if it is made up you can't prove either case. Both take a leap of faith I guess. And yes people will do crazy things in the name of faith. But if you think about it by saying that the bible is fake and there is no God, you're taking just as big of a leap of faith as I am by believing that there is a God since neither can be completely proven. Just have to weigh the risks and benefits of such a leap of faith. I feel like by believing in God if I'm wrong I lose nothing and if I'm right, well I get to be in heaven forever and that's pretty sweet. If I decided not to believe in God and I was right, I don't really gain anything I live my life anyways. But if I don't believe in God and I'm wrong, I'd lose everything

18 minutes ago, bllaw said:

There's really no way to prove one way or the other whether anything as old as the Bible is truth or if it is made up you can't prove either case. Both take a leap of faith I guess. And yes people will do crazy things in the name of faith. But if you think about it by saying that the bible is fake and there is no God, you're taking just as big of a leap of faith as I am by believing that there is a God since neither can be completely proven. Just have to weigh the risks and benefits of such a leap of faith. I feel like by believing in God if I'm wrong I lose nothing and if I'm right, well I get to be in heaven forever and that's pretty sweet. If I decided not to believe in God and I was right, I don't really gain anything I live my life anyways. But if I don't believe in God and I'm wrong, I'd lose everything

It's not a leap of faith. It's looking at the world around me without the presupposition that the bible is real. There's no evidence for any paranormal claims. The bible is touted as evidence of Yahwehs existence, yet I have shown many times that it is written by the hand of mortal men, and is a progression of earlier polytheistic religions.

And like I said several pages ago, if you want to pascal wager then you need to believe in ALL gods and religions to be sure.

Ok, don't just send random youtube links and say its "proof" I can send just as many youtube links saying God IS real so that proves nothing at all. And even if there is no evidence of what you call "paranormal claims" then I would like to see evidence of proof of evolution. Where are the fossils from millions of years of evolving apes?

Of course the bible was written by human hands how else would it of gotten to the world? The words written were inspired by God and thus I personally take them as generally infallible. I'm not saying Im pascal wagering I'm just saying that I choose to believe in the outcome that has proven itself to me as truth.

2 minutes ago, bllaw said:

Ok, don't just send random youtube links and say its "proof" I can send just as many youtube links saying God IS real so that proves nothing at all. And even if there is no evidence of what you call "paranormal claims" then I would like to see evidence of proof of evolution. Where are the fossils from millions of years of evolving apes?

Of course the bible was written by human hands how else would it of gotten to the world? The words written were inspired by God and thus I personally take them as generally infallible. I'm not saying Im pascal wagering I'm just saying that I choose to believe in the outcome that has proven itself to me as truth.

I have provided pages of arguments discussing my point. It's disingenuous to discount that. I provided a link to a video as further proof because it's pointless for me to rewrite others work. If you don't want to watch it fine, but the fact there is no archeological evidence for the flood stands, and if you believe in young earth then there isn't enough time to repopulate after the flood and still build the pyramids when we know there were created.

Lucy for the longest time was our earliest known ancestory, she is kept at the National Museum of Ethiopia. We have a great body of evidence for evolution, both macro and micro. There's so much anthropological evidence, so many papers written that to ask to be shown evidence only reflects an intentional desire to not know.

The bible is far from infallible. Right off in Genesis is the firmament. God divided the water and created the firmament. Under the firmament he gathered the water into one place and created Earth. So that means instead of space there should be water above us.

Quoting youtube is as bad if not worse than quoting wikipedia anyone can upload anything to youtube. It is very clear that we have strong differing opinions and are not going to convince either of anything at all so we're both wasting our time. Also, I said that I PERSONALLY take the bible as infallible I didn't say you had to. And your example denying that doesn't support your claim at all. If you personally believe that the bible is bogus and all that, then I genuinely feel sorry for you but I won't do anything like try to force you to believe what I believe everyone's entitled their own opinion so ill leave it at that. I don't get why you're so emphatic about trying to prove to me, a stranger, that the bible is made up but to each his own i suppose

Again, I hazard to point out that the definitive proof for or against evolution really does nothing to settle the question of Chaos vs. Purpose in existence.

Really, neither does proving/disproving the veracity of the Bible.

Again, I exercise my right to assess the facts of the cases made and make my decision from there. It is wrong to say I must choose all gods or no gods.

And there is water above us ... 🙄 But again don’t assume the Bible is a secret science book. Ecclesiastes states the sun rises and sets then hastens to its place to rise again (which of course it does not). Is this proof of fallible scientific understanding? No, rather the Bible doesn’t intend to talk science with people. It’s a document about answering all the things science will never answer, can never answer, and can never prove or disprove.

That being said, science and the Bible are not in competition. They’re both true. One’s understanding of science and one’s understanding of the Bible can certainly be at odds tho.

If you want to read some of the works of skeptics that became believers, I’d suggest CS Lewis or the Dark Professor himself Jordan Peterson.

But of course, you’ll find what you seek. It’s always been so.

I’m sure there’s inverse works as well. I’ll not read them, tho. I’m very happy and blessed and surrounded by love. I’ve taken care of the problem of meaningless existence and death, I live life not serving myself. I’m happy with my Master. I have eternal hope. Pierce my ear, Lord, I’ll stay in your employ. There is no succor that your side could ever offer me. No comfort. No help.

Just... emptiness and crushing despair and death in the end. Nothing more. My reward for a life well lived? Well, really the same as Hitler’s, just death. The angel and devil turn out to be the same. The only rewards are temporal. Nothing is lasting. And death wins.

So my hope is a long shot in your eyes? Fair. But when I’m breathing my last breath before I return to the dust I came from, I will call on Jesus.

Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.

Ecclesiastes was the book that converted me to Christianity....

Anyway.... Your right God doesn’t exist... you convinced me. 😉

On 11/30/2020 at 6:37 AM, All Shields Forward said:

Christianity is fanfic of Canaanite and Sumerian religions.

It's also got a hefty dose of Mithraic elements, which makes sense as they were both 'underground religions' in the Roman empire at the same time, and would have influenced one another's development.

13 hours ago, bllaw said:

It is very clear that we have strong differing opinions and are not going to convince either of anything at all so we're both wasting our time. Also, I said that I PERSONALLY take the bible as infallible I didn't say you had to. And your example denying that doesn't support your claim at all. If you personally believe that the bible is bogus and all that, then I genuinely feel sorry for you but I won't do anything like try to force you to believe what I believe everyone's entitled their own opinion so ill leave it at that. I don't get why you're so emphatic about trying to prove to me, a stranger, that the bible is made up but to each his own i suppose

Ok, you need to stop with this "my believe is my private thing"-claim. Because it very obviously isn't, and my proof is that this is NOT your private home, and this thread is NOT about christianity and/or christians. But in spite of that, ImperialYeet started talking, without any prompting from anyone, about how he is a christian and how the flood is real and logical and hillary is a satanist for sacrificing goats or whatever. And your comment to that was "yeah, pretty much all that, but in a nicer tone." At that point, you have put your belief out of your private sphere and into the public.

ImperialYeet wants us to believe that the biblical flood is a real, factual event that is 100% real and relevant for this debate. He took his personal opinion and claimed that it is undisputable, logical fact. And only when people started to critizice that claim did you turn around and argued that this is not actually about facts, this is about opinions and personal belief.

Ok peeps. Im gonna prove the Bible and God. The Jews still FREAKING exist!!!! They went through a holocaust, separation and the world still hates them and yet the still exist.

11 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

Again, I hazard to point out that the definitive proof for or against evolution really does nothing to settle the question of Chaos vs. Purpose in existence.

Really, neither does proving/disproving the veracity of the Bible.

Again, I exercise my right to assess the facts of the cases made and make my decision from there. It is wrong to say I must choose all gods or no gods.

And there is water above us ... 🙄 But again don’t assume the Bible is a secret science book. Ecclesiastes states the sun rises and sets then hastens to its place to rise again (which of course it does not). Is this proof of fallible scientific understanding? No, rather the Bible doesn’t intend to talk science with people. It’s a document about answering all the things science will never answer, can never answer, and can never prove or disprove.

That being said, science and the Bible are not in competition. They’re both true. One’s understanding of science and one’s understanding of the Bible can certainly be at odds tho.

If you want to read some of the works of skeptics that became believers, I’d suggest CS Lewis or the Dark Professor himself Jordan Peterson.

But of course, you’ll find what you seek. It’s always been so.

I’m sure there’s inverse works as well. I’ll not read them, tho. I’m very happy and blessed and surrounded by love. I’ve taken care of the problem of meaningless existence and death, I live life not serving myself. I’m happy with my Master. I have eternal hope. Pierce my ear, Lord, I’ll stay in your employ. There is no succor that your side could ever offer me. No comfort. No help.

Just... emptiness and crushing despair and death in the end. Nothing more. My reward for a life well lived? Well, really the same as Hitler’s, just death. The angel and devil turn out to be the same. The only rewards are temporal. Nothing is lasting. And death wins.

So my hope is a long shot in your eyes? Fair. But when I’m breathing my last breath before I return to the dust I came from, I will call on Jesus.

Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.

Ecclesiastes was the book that converted me to Christianity....

Anyway.... Your right God doesn’t exist... you convinced me. 😉

Several things:

A) I agree that the bible is not supposed to be about science, and you are correct that proving evolution doesn't disprove god or religion. My problem is... those ideas came from your team . Atheists and scientists were not the ones claiming that evolution disproves god, Radical christian preachers said that. Same goes for the literal bible vs. metaphorical bible.

B) Regarding "all gods or no god", the point is that pascals wager does not work in a world with more than one religion. Because than you could believe in god and still not go to heaven.

C) How can "One’s understanding of science and one’s understanding of the Bible" be at odds? Both answer completely different questions ("how" and "why").

D) You are free to believe that a life without god has no meaning for you. I would argue that the abrahamitic belief system is much more nihilistic than atheism. Not only is the world just a broken, "early-access"-version of heaven, all the good deeds are not done out of true kindness, but just because people are afraid of going to "the bad place". Existance has no end, so anything you create in life is worthless because heaven is the true paradise regardless of what we do here, so why not kill yourself and go there directly.

I would argue that your reward for a life well lived is ... that life. The fact that there is no "life 2.0", no "life+", no "life, but with extra cheese and onions", is what gives your life any meaning.

2 hours ago, Sandmann87 said:

Ok, you need to stop with this "my believe is my private thing"-claim. Because it very obviously isn't, and my proof is that this is NOT your private home, and this thread is NOT about christianity and/or christians. But in spite of that, ImperialYeet started talking, without any prompting from anyone, about how he is a christian and how the flood is real and logical and hillary is a satanist for sacrificing goats or whatever. And your comment to that was "yeah, pretty much all that, but in a nicer tone." At that point, you have put your belief out of your private sphere and into the public.

ImperialYeet wants us to believe that the biblical flood is a real, factual event that is 100% real and relevant for this debate. He took his personal opinion and claimed that it is undisputable, logical fact. And only when people started to critizice that claim did you turn around and argued that this is not actually about facts, this is about opinions and personal belief.

I didn't say I was stating my opinions in a private place at all I was just saying "I think this, you think that, and thats ok." Other people on this thread I've noticed have been saying things like I think this, and you have to as well. Was just trying to be nice about it

1 hour ago, Sandmann87 said:

B) Regarding "all gods or no god", the point is that pascals wager does not work in a world with more than one religion. Because than you could believe in god and still not go to heaven.

I don't think you get what Pascal's Wager is. It's not a guarantee to get to heaven because if it was, wouldn't everyone go with that? It's a guarantee at a good life, whether heaven is real or not

1 hour ago, Sandmann87 said:

D) You are free to believe that a life without god has no meaning for you. I would argue that the abrahamitic belief system is much more nihilistic than atheism. Not only is the world just a broken, "early-access"-version of heaven, all the good deeds are not done out of true kindness, but just because people are afraid of going to "the bad place". Existance has no end, so anything you create in life is worthless because heaven is the true paradise regardless of what we do here, so why not kill yourself and go there directly.

The good deeds Christians do ARE out of true kindness (ok, I guess not EVERY Christian but oh well) because good deeds don't get you to heaven. And about killing yourself to go straight to heaven, I have wondered that myself. But if I was put here on this earth, it's got to be a for a reason and not for me to just throw away. Also as a Christian I believe that my life is not my own I belong to Jesus Christ and therefore throwing away my life is not an option because, it's not my life to begin with.

53 minutes ago, bllaw said:

The good deeds Christians do ARE out of true kindness (ok, I guess not EVERY Christian but oh well) because good deeds don't get you to heaven. And about killing yourself to go straight to heaven, I have wondered that myself. But if I was put here on this earth, it's got to be a for a reason and not for me to just throw away. Also as a Christian I believe that my life is not my own I belong to Jesus Christ and therefore throwing away my life is not an option because, it's not my life to begin with.

This.

2 hours ago, bllaw said:

I didn't say I was stating my opinions in a private place at all I was just saying "I think this, you think that, and thats ok." Other people on this thread I've noticed have been saying things like I think this, and you have to as well. Was just trying to be nice about it

ImperialYeet said: " A quick view on my faith:There is one God, 3 in 1 and He sent His Son to die for us. Proof : Fossils form instantl y ." "Fossils can only form instantly . That is a fact ." "(...)but the real logical answer (pushs glasses up*) is a global flood."

As you can see, he clearly did not talk about a belief or an opinion, he talked about facts. Observable, unbiased facts.

You said: " dude i totally agree with what youre saying(...)"

So do you agree with him or not? Because if yes, you would also not state an opinion, but a fact, and if you do not, than I would be really confused about your earlier post.

3 hours ago, bllaw said:

I don't think you get what Pascal's Wager is. It's not a guarantee to get to heaven because if it was, wouldn't everyone go with that? It's a guarantee at a good life, whether heaven is real or not

Well, with all due respect, I don't think you understand what pascals wager is. Pascals wager says that if god does not exist, it does not matter if you're a believer or a non-believer, but if god does exist, believers go to heaven and non-believers do not. So logically you should be a believer.

And as I have said before, that only works with one religion. Because what do you do when you are a christian, and the jews/muslims/taoists are right?

3 hours ago, bllaw said:

The good deeds Christians do ARE out of true kindness (ok, I guess not EVERY Christian but oh well) because good deeds don't get you to heaven.

So what does get you into heaven? I am honestly curious. Because the only other christian alternative that I know of is "you only go to heaven when you embrace Jesus Christ as your saviour". And that alternative is ... much worse.

1 hour ago, Sandmann87 said:

So what does get you into heaven? I am honestly curious. Because the only other christian alternative that I know of is " you only go to heaven when you embrace Jesus Christ as your saviour ". And that alternative is ... much worse.

You answered your own question.

Yes, the Christian faith states it is impossible to earn heaven.

One must request God’s salvation.

26 minutes ago, Bravo Null said:

You answered your own question.

What does " embrace Jesus Christ as y ou r saviour" mean? This is not satire, I really want to know. Because it apparently does not mean "just do good things", but something different/more.

13 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

Yes, the Christian faith states it is impossible to earn heaven.

One must request God’s salvation.

Two questions:

What if Adolf Hitler requests God's salvation?

What happens if devout muslim and nobel peace price winner Malala Yousafzai dies?

6 hours ago, Sandmann87 said:

Several things:

A) I agree that the bible is not supposed to be about science, and you are correct that proving evolution .... etc

A) Granted. But I have yet to meet someone who is atheist/agnostic that does not use “evolution = no god.” Not saying that that’s impossible, just not common in my life experience. And this isn’t entirely true because several atheists DO use evolution to argue for gods non-existence.

B) I’m not saying that believing in YHWH = no more risk at point of death. But believing in no god does place you in the either you’re right or you await an afterlife, whatever that entails.

C) Merely stating here that human understanding can be flawed on either subject.

D)(a) Point here is constructs such as “good” and “bad” don’t even matter. If there’s no judgement/reward of the wicked/righteous then there’s no real morals. If you want to be a dictator and murder innocent people or a saint that feeds the poor, go ahead. Do what you will. Both die, cease to exist. The reward for a life well lived is not that life — it’s just death. Same reward as the wicked.

By definition you cannot be more nihilistic than atheism... because literally nothing matters.

D)(b) To help you understand Christian charity and good deeds I will use an analogy. I’ll mention that this will mean more if you have a genuinely good relationship with your parents and your children. If not, I’m sorry, but imagine the ideal.

My infant/toddler children began obeying my direction for a very simple reason: bad things (from their tiny perspectives) happened to them when they did not obey my voice. Little punishments and disciplines that modified their behaviors. They obeyed to avoid the unpleasantness of disobedience. (*Don’t assume bad or weird things here, regardless of your parental choices of discipline, the principle is the same. Bare in mind I’m a loving parent*)

As they grew older, the began to gain understanding and this motivated their obedience but still mixed with the juvenile fear consequences. They didn’t just fear playing in the street because of Daddy disciplining them, they learned about cars.

As they grew older they really stopped fearing me at all. What motivated their obedience to me was a sharing in my parental wisdom (obviously classic growing pains occur here as wills compete). They began recognizing that my commands to them were motivated out of my desire to help them and based on my own life’s experiences.

Finally, my children will one day “obey” me (obviously the application here alters in adulthood) for the sole reason of no not fear, or understanding the reason, or seeking the wisdom.... rather simply because they love me. Tho as a parent I cannot attest to this yet, I can as a son to my father.

This serves as analogy to help understand obedience to God, a Heavenly Father. Eternal punishment is a great reason to obey, but once you begin obeying, your reasons for doing so does not remain in the infancy stage. It matures.

(D)(c) Actually heaven isn’t life 2.0 really it’s more like actual life. That this life is sleeping in the matrix but real life is on the other side of this barrier of death. Like a good doctor, Christianity doesn’t lie about the condition of this life: it is broken and sick and evil. It does offer the hope of a cure, though.

The only remaining question:

6 minutes ago, Sandmann87 said:

What does " embrace Jesus Christ as y ou r saviour" mean? This is not satire, I really want to know. Because it apparently does not mean "just do good things", but something different/more.

Simply stated- Become a Christian, and repent. Live sola fide, by faith alone.

10 minutes ago, Sandmann87 said:

What if Adolf Hitler requests God's salvation?

What happens if devout muslim and nobel peace price winner Malala Yousafzai dies?

Mark 16:16- 'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.' And Mark 2:17- "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

2 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

The only remaining question:

LOL, brilliant!

19 minutes ago, Sandmann87 said:

What does " embrace Jesus Christ as y ou r saviour" mean? This is not satire, I really want to know. Because it apparently does not mean "just do good things", but something different/more.

Two questions:

What if Adolf Hitler requests God's salvation?

What happens if devout muslim and nobel peace price winner Malala Yousafzai dies?

1) Hitler would go to heaven.

2) Assuming he did not acknowledge God in his life... toasty warm rest of his existence.

Christianity holds in brief:

1) ALL have sinned and deserve death

2) We are unable to fix the situation or be independently righteous to perfection. Even our good works are fruitless to affect our own salvation

3) God can save us via his mercy and love for us (in the biblical story the Crucifixion is important here)

4) God does not force us into his grace, he desires free choice

5) We must request his salvation

6) God promises eternal life and resurrection

“good things” come from our love of god and desire to obey. The Christian way of loving god is directly stated to be in loving fellow man.

7 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

1) Hitler would go to heaven.

2) Assuming he did not acknowledge God in his life... toasty warm rest of his existence.

While I understand this is an intellectual exercise more for funsies... I must recant this.

It is ABSOLUTELY god’s business who goes to H or H.

All I can do is try my best to be honest with my own soul, beg his patience, ask his favor, and try my best to follow.

I know what I’ve been commanded, it is entirely overstepping my bounds to say what god will do with a soul he formed.

8 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

1) Hitler would go to heaven.

2) Assuming he did not acknowledge God in his life... toasty warm rest of his existence.

Christianity holds in brief:

1) ALL have sinned and deserve death

2) We are unable to fix the situation or be independently righteous to perfection. Even our good works are fruitless to affect our own salvation

3) God can save us via his mercy and love for us (in the biblical story the Crucifixion is important here)

4) God does not force us into his grace, he desires free choice

5) We must request his salvation

6) God promises eternal life and resurrection

“good things” come from our love of god and desire to obey. The Christian way of loving god is directly stated to be in loving fellow man.

So Amon Goeth, the butcher of Płaszów and baptised catholic, is in heaven, and the jews he murdered in his concentration camp are rotting in ****.

That is a very, very bad system, and I urge you to stop believing in it, and start believing in literally anything else.