2 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:You seem to miss that your opinion is a complete outlier and that just about everyone who tries to game likes it. A lot. Including a lot of “more traditional gamers”.
That may be true HERE, on these boards, but I know plenty of gamers that think these lines are complete crap. Most don't bother trying to make it better, they just leave it behind and go on to something else.
15 minutes ago, Daeglan said:And this is where you assume wound damage is anything more than a graze. Clearly it is not. And every game uses a hit point mechanic. The numbers are different but they all do it.
No, they do not.
9 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Spoiled milk...i dont know. Every objective game i have ever played ended up being an endless slog through overly complicated rules with tons of rules interactions that were a mess. Sooo yeah narrative is cleaner. I would say objective rules are more spoiled milk than narrative. If you have trouble maybe you need a better gm...
All that you said could apply to your experiences too with traditional and narrative reversed.
2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:That may be true HERE, on these boards, but I know plenty of gamers that think these lines are complete crap. Most don't bother trying to make it better, they just leave it behind and go on to something else.
All I can talk about is what I read here, on rpg.net, my local gamestore and what I see on review aggregators. There is jo denying that the overall view of this line is very positive. Of course there are always people who dislike something (heck, The Shining was nominated for a golden raspberry) but denying that is a minority opinion is just obtuse.
1 minute ago, DanteRotterdam said:All I can talk about is what I read here, on rpg.net, my local gamestore and what I see on review aggregators. There is jo denying that the overall view of this line is very positive. Of course there are always people who dislike something (heck, The Shining was nominated for a golden raspberry) but denying that is a minority opinion is just obtuse.
You can call it obtuse, but I can cite just as many counter examples. In particular, in local stores, you don't see it get much play at all beyond the one group I started (they still play it even after I walked away). So, your anecdotes vs. mine mean little and we can joth ust agree that the other is wrong.
You are aware that only one of my four examples was anecdotal, right?
12 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:You are aware that only one of my four examples was anecdotal, right?
Well, I consider rpgnet to be worthless, so I won't bother to comment on it further.
36 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:No, they do not.
Prove it.
2 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:I know you didn’t. Someone else did.
Nor did I. You are really quite good at missing people's points. Congratulations.
I said that based on his experience, I thought it likely his assertion that he has a better understanding of the system than most was not unreasonable, and could very well be accurate. ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than saying someone has mastery because they playtested.
2 hours ago, Daeglan said:Prove it.
Traveller , Cortex System , FATE
And if I understood it correctly Legends of the Wulin and the West End D6 systems are also without hit points (never had more contact with those than reading about them)
The Statement that all games use hit point systems is fated to be wrong because there are players out there actually wanting to play without such systems. You can argue about the defintions and what mechanics inside those systems could still be considered some form of hit points. But in the end hit points represent some form of health/toughness and the systems above don't do that.
12 minutes ago, Malashim said:Traveller , Cortex System , FATE
And if I understood it correctly Legends of the Wulin and the West End D6 systems are also without hit points (never had more contact with those than reading about them).
I don't know Legends of the Wulin, but in the old WEG Star Wars RPG was rather easy to make a character that can just shrug off most blaster fire.
42 minutes ago, Malashim said:Traveller , Cortex System , FATE
And if I understood it correctly Legends of the Wulin and the West End D6 systems are also without hit points (never had more contact with those than reading about them)
The Statement that all games use hit point systems is fated to be wrong because there are players out there actually wanting to play without such systems. You can argue about the defintions and what mechanics inside those systems could still be considered some form of hit points. But in the end hit points represent some form of health/toughness and the systems above don't do that.
You can add in Shadowrun, World of Darkness/Exalted, and TORG in there too along with Savage Worlds. These use 'health levels' that do not play the same as hit points (Wounds in FFG SW) because they impact the character before the last one is filled-in and the levels typically don't vary from individual to individual, although some other mechanic exists to determine whether a character takes one (or more) levels of damage from an attack.
Using the D6 system, there was an option for a Body (hit) point system or of a Body roll to resist, showing that the two methods produce very different ways to play.
Finally, Mutants & Masterminds gets by with various conditions resisted by saves. This includes Damage Saves, resisted by Toughness. From 2e on, there are no hit points to be found.
33 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:I don't know Legends of the Wulin, but in the old WEG Star Wars RPG was rather easy to make a character that can just shrug off most blaster fire.
It was also possible to die in one shot.
I ran 2eR&E a year ago and a PC that had spent all his CP and his FP before an unexceptional sniper with a sporting blaster rifle tagged him when the PC bravely/foolishly left cover. The PC rolled a 1 on the Wild Die for his soak (3D) while the shooter rolled a 6 on his Wild Die for damage (4D+1). When it was resolved, the damage exceeded the soak by 17 points, which killed the (up until this point uninjured) character.
The player, used to FFG's system, thought this was awesome as it made the game feel so much more exciting to him. He agrees with me that there is very little element of such risk in the FFG system.
2 hours ago, Malashim said:Traveller , Cortex System , FATE
And if I understood it correctly Legends of the Wulin and the West End D6 systems are also without hit points (never had more contact with those than reading about them)
The Statement that all games use hit point systems is fated to be wrong because there are players out there actually wanting to play without such systems. You can argue about the defintions and what mechanics inside those systems could still be considered some form of hit points. But in the end hit points represent some form of health/toughness and the systems above don't do that.
All of those have hit points. They use a different name but they have them.
1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:You can add in Shadowrun, World of Darkness/Exalted, and TORG in there too along with Savage Worlds. These use 'health levels' that do not play the same as hit points (Wounds in FFG SW) because they impact the character before the last one is filled-in and the levels typically don't vary from individual to individual, although some other mechanic exists to determine whether a character takes one (or more) levels of damage from an attack.
Using the D6 system, there was an option for a Body (hit) point system or of a Body roll to resist, showing that the two methods produce very different ways to play.
Finally, Mutants & Masterminds gets by with various conditions resisted by saves. This includes Damage Saves, resisted by Toughness. From 2e on, there are no hit points to be found.
12 minutes ago, Daeglan said:All of those have hit points. They use a different name but they have them.
It seems the two of you have different definitions of what "hit-points" are, so perhaps you should clarify your terms rather than going in circles.
3 hours ago, Malashim said:Traveller , Cortex System , FATE
And if I understood it correctly Legends of the Wulin and the West End D6 systems are also without hit points (never had more contact with those than reading about them)
The Statement that all games use hit point systems is fated to be wrong because there are players out there actually wanting to play without such systems. You can argue about the defintions and what mechanics inside those systems could still be considered some form of hit points. But in the end hit points represent some form of health/toughness and the systems above don't do that.
1 hour ago, Daeglan said:All of those have hit points. They use a different name but they have them.
Exactly.
50 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:It seems the two of you have different definitions of what "hit-points" are, so perhaps you should clarify your terms rather than going in circles.
“Hit Points” is just one of numerous terms used for the mechanic measuring the health of an RPG character. All of them use some form of finite points. All RPGs have some sort of numerical measurement for a character’s health. Without one, there is no way to keep track of injuries nor to arbitrate their severity.
9 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:You are really quite good at missing people's points. Congratulations.
You’re one to talk.
6 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:All of them use some form of finite points.
Ripples from Legends of the Wulin are not finite. They only increase the chances to suffer increasingly more severe conditions, which are also not finite if you manage to "fight around" them. There will be a point where you will be beaten but this is not connected to "some sort of numerical measurement for a character’s health." - it is based on how clever someone can fight around the conditions they suffered.
5 hours ago, DanteRotterdam said:You’re one to talk.
You got anything to back that up with, or are you just being snarky because you have no defense?
13 hours ago, HappyDaze said:You can add in Shadowrun, World of Darkness/Exalted, and TORG in there too along with Savage Worlds. These use 'health levels' that do not play the same as hit points (Wounds in FFG SW) because they impact the character before the last one is filled-in and the levels typically don't vary from individual to individual, although some other mechanic exists to determine whether a character takes one (or more) levels of damage from an attack.
Using the D6 system, there was an option for a Body (hit) point system or of a Body roll to resist, showing that the two methods produce very different ways to play.
Finally, Mutants & Masterminds gets by with various conditions resisted by saves. This includes Damage Saves, resisted by Toughness. From 2e on, there are no hit points to be found.
Those are all still hit points.
6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Those are all still hit points.
Hit point mean: 1) you're at 100% until they are all gone, and 2) they increase with experience.
The games I mention don't do it that way.
Just now, HappyDaze said:Hit point mean: 1) you're at 100% until they are all gone, and 2) they increase with experience.
The games I mention don't do it that way.
Neither does FFG Star Wars.
4 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:Hit point mean: 1) you're at 100% until they are all gone, and 2) they increase with experience.
The games I mention don't do it that way.
Then technically wounds in SWRPG don't count as the opposite of point 1 is true - you're at 100% when they're all gone.
I'm sure someone being pedantic and raising that point will only help nurse the high quality of the debate so far, of course.
Edited by Kualan7 minutes ago, Kualan said:Then technically wounds in SWRPG don't count as the opposite of point 1 is true - you're at 100% when they're all gone.
I'm sure someone being pedantic and raising that point will only help nurse the high quality of the debate so far, of course.
They are functionally identical whether you count up or count down.
5 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:They are functionally identical whether you count up or count down.
Again I hear the pedants' chorus from the wings - "but hit points knock you out when you reach the threshold, wounds require you to exceed it".
For the record, I have no issue with your comparisons. But the post count under your profile picture tells me you should know better than to assume someone won't jump down your throat over the mildest technicality. This is an Internet forum for a niche hobby after all (and worse, a niche hobby currently going through a content drought - what else is there to do but make pointless arguments?)