8 hours ago, urloony said:

Of course, in present day, criticism = bigotry. Sam Wilson is a great as the Falcon. Why does he need to be Captain America? I've never liked character changes, and fortunately, they are all usually short lived. When a whole slew of mainline characters all change at once however, that's when questions should be asked. What happens if we make Black Panther a white guy from New Jersey? Doesn't that fundamentally change who Black Panther is? Or are you content to simply say "oh Black Panther is just a title, anyone can be Black Panther?" I doubt it. Make Kamala Khan and Riri Williams and Miles Morales characters, but make them new and original characters. Don't tokenize and demean them by shoehorning them into preexistent heroes. It undermines them and suggests to your readers that they are not strong enough to stand on their own as minority characters, instead they must stand on the shoulders of already established and successful heroes.

Nah, criticism doesn't equal bigotry. But if there's a continued pattern to who one does or doesn't direct that criticism at, one can make inferences from that.

Black Panther would be a little bit of a weird moniker for a white guy from New Jersey, but I suppose it wouldn't actually be that much different than having Black Panther patrolling New York to fill the role of Daredevil, which did happen. And yes, Black Panther is a title. There have been multiple Black Panthers in the comics, including T'chaka, T'chall, Shuri, and Azzuri, among others. Definitely not who I would choose as an example to make an argument against legacy characters.

Do you read DC? I can just imagine the rage that Geoff Johns must have inspired by having a JSA run where legacy characters were the entire point of the comic. And that's not even touching how many Green Lanterns there are.

8 hours ago, urloony said:

You need to establish this claim. Batman can also be considered an anti-hero, so it's more plausible. Kamala is not an anti-hero.

Sure; that's easy enough (even though it's a bit unfair to say I need to establish my claim when you don't do the same for your own.) I'll even get you some screenshots from marvel unlimited in a little bit.

7 hours ago, urloony said:

Normie is not a derogatory term. It's a reference to non-comic readers who are familiar with mainline characters and the MCU, the Muggles of the comic world.

I'm not saying you're being derogatory to the people you consider "normal;" I'm saying it comes across as insulting to those you're excluding from that classification, by suggesting that they aren't normal.

Also, one of your posts said that Marvel and DC "should cater their books more to normies," which doesn't really fit with how you're defining it now.

3 hours ago, LudVanB said:

Seriously why Ms Marvel? she s at best a D-lister. With all the characters they have in the roster, they re gonna waste a pack on Kamala Khan? Whats next, Gwenpool? Squirel Girl?

As has already been mentioned, she's one of the most popular new characters of the past decade, she was one of the stars of a recent animated series, and she has another tv show in the works.

And yes, Gwenpool and Squirrel Girl would be welcome additions as well.

Why the F do is it that we cannot go one month without someone bringing up stupidly awful reactionary anti-sjwism talking point that have nothing to do with gameplay or deck building strategies. All the hate for Me Marvel is purely objective opinions. Some like Me Marvel. Some do not. Same can said about Marvel's boyscout answer to Superman: Captain America. There is nothing wrong with liking what others like or hate, but complaining about said characters is stupid. It isn't so much the SJWs that are ruining pop culture, but also the anti-sjws that fight them as well. Everything will be much better if both camps will just ignore each other.

2 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Nah, criticism doesn't equal bigotry. But if there's a continued pattern to who one does or doesn't direct that criticism at, one can make inferences from that.

Black Panther would be a little bit of a weird moniker for a white guy from New Jersey, but I suppose it wouldn't actually be that much different than having Black Panther patrolling New York to fill the role of Daredevil, which did happen. And yes, Black Panther is a title. There have been multiple Black Panthers in the comics, including T'chaka, T'chall, Shuri, and Azzuri, among others. Definitely not who I would choose as an example to make an argument against legacy characters.

Notice Black Panther has never been played by a white red-headed woman, and should never be. Are you intentionally missing the point?

2 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Do you read DC?

I don't.

2 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Sure; that's easy enough (even though it's a bit unfair to say I need to establish my claim when you don't do the same for your own.) I'll even get you some screenshots from marvel unlimited in a little bit.

I've establishing my points. I explained why I think Kamala is a villain and not a hero and as a result is a terrible character. If you want to disagree with the points I've made, go ahead. To say that I haven't established my claim is intellectually dishonest.

2 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

I'm saying it comes across as insulting to those you're excluding from that classification, by suggesting that they aren't normal.

Good thing I explained it then.

2 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

As has already been mentioned, she's one of the most popular new characters of the past decade, she was one of the stars of a recent animated series, and she has another tv show in the works.

And yes, Gwenpool and Squirrel Girl would be welcome additions as well.

She's the most popular character no one has ever heard of. It's pretty clear that Marvel has dictated to FFG what characters they must release. Even the game designers were unfamiliar with her, so FFG has defniately been given a manifest.

13 minutes ago, urloony said:

Notice Black Panther has never been played by a white red-headed woman, and should never be.

That doesn't mean other heroes couldn't be played by men and women of various ethnicities, especially when most heroes are white and male (and most exceptions are one or the other) for no better reason than expectations set in a racist and sexist context.

4 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

As has already been mentioned, she's one of the most popular new characters of the past decade, she was one of the stars of a recent animated series, and she has another tv show in the works.

And yes, Gwenpool and Squirrel Girl would be welcome additions as well.

No she is not one of the most popular character of any decades. Ms Marvel never gets in the top100 in sales according to comichron...neither do Squirrel Girl or Gwenpool or America Chavez or any of the new characters from the disastrous all new all different run at marvel. There are literally dozens of far better known and liked characters to choose from here.

1 hour ago, urloony said:

It's pretty clear that Marvel has dictated to FFG what characters they must release. Even the game designers were unfamiliar with her, so FFG has defniately been given a manifest.

Wow. And these statements are absolute facts then? I must be getting naive.

Especially considering Mike Boggs in the last live stream implied they had freedom of choice across the Marvel roster. Whether he was being entire truthful I can't confirm of course, but that's all we have to go on now.

Characters like America Chavez, Ms. Marvel, Sam Alexander, Miles Morales etc all appeal to a potential different audience for this game. Particularly ones that watch the cartoons and buy comics digitally. If you question these characters' ability to sell then tell me why characters like Gwenpool and Squirrel Girl endure. Squirrel Girl has been around since 1991. America Chavez has been around since 2011. They are hardly weird new experiments. What I'm hearing from some in this thread is they'd like to deny people access to these character so they can have more characters that they prefer. I'm not going to accuse anyone of being a sexist or racist. It's possible the motivation is just selfishness. In either case it's not a good look.

I know objectively a large segment of the young female comic reading audience are into characters like Squirrel Girl, Gwenpool and Ms. Marvel. All you have to do is attend a comic book convention to know this is true. You don't even have to do hard research here. I think the old guard have plenty to play with already. I can be patient for my Guardians Of The Galaxy decks or Doctor Strange deck. I want this game to be as successful as possible because that means FFG will throw it's full might behind it and it will have the longest life possible. That means attracting as wide an audience to the game as possible. This including people reading stuff that I might not be necessarily into currently.

32 minutes ago, phillos said:

If you question these characters' ability to sell then tell me why characters like Gwenpool and Squirrel Girl endure. Squirrel Girl has been around since 1991. America Chavez has been around since 2011.

Unfortunately, virtue signaling and throwing good money after bad have been staples of marvel comics business practice for a while now. All these characters sell at numbers that used to be well below cancellation numbers when the company didn't have a thriving cinematic side to prop it up. They keep trying to reboot them and never grow the audience for them no matter how often they try. FFG would be better advised to follow the example of Upper Deck's Marvel Legendary approach and rely on the core characters to build a solid base from which to expand before trying to market 3rd and 4th tier toons

You think printed comic sales will recover to their pre-bubble numbers? The print industry will never get back to there. Everything is digital now (or these characters get their exposure through cartoons). I don't know anyone who gets a paper delivered to their house or has a magazine subscription anymore. Really us buying printed comic books is a relic of a by gone era.

Is legendary a model for success? I know it had alot of expansions, but I don't know anyone who plays it on the regular in my circles. I tried it and didn't like it to be perfectly honest. Was it a success on the same level as say Arkham Horror the card game or Netrunner?

Also at one point Iron Man was a 3rd tier hero. Then he got a movie and now he's the new face of the company. That's just how it happens. I don't think anyone is gonna argue making an Iron Man movie was a mistake, but at the time it was a questionable decision for those of us following the news.

2 hours ago, LudVanB said:

No she is not one of the most popular character of any decades. Ms Marvel never gets in the top100 in sales according to comichron...neither do Squirrel Girl or Gwenpool or America Chavez or any of the new characters from the disastrous all new all different run at marvel. There are literally dozens of far better known and liked characters to choose from here.

Ms Marvel's sales arent print. Marvel has said several times that she sells very well in digital.

As for how charactersare picked. The designers had free choice. Boggs said he read some of her comics and loved the character. Marvel isnt forcing anything on them.

11 hours ago, LudVanB said:

Seriously why Ms Marvel? she s at best a D-lister. With all the characters they have in the roster, they re gonna waste a pack on Kamala Khan? Whats next, Gwenpool? Squirel Girl?

Again, like I said before, it's probably one of two reasons:

1. One of the developers is a huge fan of Ms. Marvel and wanted her in there. If you designed a game, wouldn't you want your favorite characters?

2. Disney specifically requested them to promote the characters that are getting new TV shows. Hence the selection of She-Hulk (although she's a much more popular character than Ms. Marvel admittedly). Disney decides what they want to be popular by making movies or tv shows, at least among those who don't read the comics. If #2 is the reason, this is just a sign they want to turn Ms. Marvel into a popular character .

Attention Moderators: can you please lock this thread? Thank you.

48 minutes ago, Supertoe said:

Again, like I said before, it's probably one of two reasons:

1. One of the developers is a huge fan of Ms. Marvel and wanted her in there. If you designed a game, wouldn't you want your favorite characters?

2. Disney specifically requested them to promote the characters that are getting new TV shows. Hence the selection of She-Hulk (although she's a much more popular character than Ms. Marvel admittedly). Disney decides what they want to be popular by making movies or tv shows, at least among those who don't read the comics. If #2 is the reason, this is just a sign they want to turn Ms. Marvel into a popular character .

Source on #2?

The Designers said they included She-Hulk because they wanted to show they were using the wider comics universe, not just an MCU adaption. The game would have been designed a year+ ago. And I seriously doubt they were given knowledge of future shows that are still 3 years away.

2 hours ago, Radix2309 said:

Source on #2?

The Designers said they included She-Hulk because they wanted to show they were using the wider comics universe, not just an MCU adaption. The game would have been designed a year+ ago. And I seriously doubt they were given knowledge of future shows that are still 3 years away.

I said it was either, and you're right, #1 seems far more likely than #2.

On 10/2/2019 at 11:38 AM, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Actually, her powers are completely different. The only thing in common is that Kamala based her name and costume on Carol's.

Carol's powers are energy-based, while Kamala's are about shape shifting, more like Mr. Fantastic than anyone else.

the trailer shows some of her powers. EMBIGGEN!

On 10/10/2019 at 10:12 AM, Vlad3theImpaler said:

As has already been mentioned, she's one of the most popular new characters of the past decade, she was one of the stars of a recent animated series, and she has another tv show in the works.

And yes, Gwenpool and Squirrel Girl would be welcome additions as w

Squirrel Girl would be great.

(and Howard the Duck)

On 10/9/2019 at 10:45 PM, urloony said:

Sure it is. Do you view him as a classical hero? If so, explain.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihero

An antihero or antiheroine is a main character in a story who lacks conventional heroic qualities and attributes such as idealism, courage and morality.

The definition speaks for itself. If you still don’t understand why, I’m not sure there’s a point in responding further.

23 hours ago, phillos said:

Is legendary a model for success? I know it had alot of expansions, but I don't know anyone who plays it on the regular in my circles. I tried it and didn't like it to be perfectly honest. Was it a success on the same level as say Arkham Horror the card game or Netrunner?

Also at one point Iron Man was a 3rd tier hero. Then he got a movie and now he's the new face of the company. That's just how it happens. I don't think anyone is gonna argue making an Iron Man movie was a mistake, but at the time it was a questionable decision for those of us following the news.

Legendary certainly is a success. Its been in print for 7 years and has spawned an entire line of legendary deck builder games (Alien, Predator, X-files just to name a few) with marvel legendary being their first and most popular title by far.

I beg to differ when it comes to Iron Man. He s always been a top tier character of Marvel comics. even before the movies, everyone had heard of Iron man and he has had dozenss of popular comic lines over the decades.

That's objectively not true. It's hard to go back to a world before his movie, but my girlfriend and my mother had no idea who Iron Man was, but they knew Spiderman, The X-Men, Batman, Superman, Hulk, Captain America. Iron Man was not a major property like he is now. The idea of an Iron Man movie was a huge gamble. That was the prevailing opinion at the time. Then the movie was good. Before that Iron Man was on the same level as a She Hulk. He was another Avengers related character. If you were a Marvel fan you knew him, but he didn't penetrate beyond that. Maybe you can argue he was a second tier character, but top tier definitely not.

If that's not a convincing argument there is the obvious example of Guardians of the Galaxy. I loved both the original run and the Abnett and Lanning reboot, but even in Marvel readership I was a minority. Annihilation was not a huge success for them as an event. It was overshadowed by Civil War by a mile. Marvel seemed actively ashamed of it's cosmic setting and was downplaying it at the time. Then Guardians the movie gets pitched, they relaunch the comic and now everyone loves GotG (and evidently cosmic Marvel). I'd argue they weren't even 3rd tier prior to their MCU movie. They had a cult following at best. Even many Marvel fans would need some explaining if I brought them up. Also usually I'd get eye rolls when I'd mention I liked Rocket. Now Rocket is one of the most successful characters in their roster. Then we could extend the arugment to Captain Marvel and Black Panther. Both not exactly top tier properties if you jump back in time 10 years ago. Though now no one is complaining about them being in the core set. That's the power of exposure. Exposure like getting featured prominently in tie in products like this one.

Legendary is probably a huge success, but I was honestly asking because it's had almost no impact in my circles and I can only see whats in front of me. You think it's success is attributed mostly to the properties they chose? You think it would have flopped if one of the heroes in it's base game was Ms. Marvel?

Iron Man was definitely above She-Hulk. He maintained a solo for pretty much the entire history of the publishing line.

He is a founding and mainstay Avenger. He had his own tv show in the 90s.

He is B-list at worst.

1 hour ago, phillos said:

Legendary is probably a huge success, but I was honestly asking because it's had almost no impact in my circles and I can only see whats in front of me. You think it's success is attributed mostly to the properties they chose? You think it would have flopped if one of the heroes in it's base game was Ms. Marvel?

Its still ranked 147 on bgg...out of thousands of games worldwide even though its 7 years old. I m not saying it would have flopped if it had included Ms Marvel among its initial offerings but it makes it easier to market with top tiers characters before going to the lesser known. I seriously doubt Guardians of the Galaxy for instance would have even received a pitch meeting if it had been the first proposed MCU movie. They went with Iron Man as their opening salvo and to be honest going back 48 years I cant remember encountering anyone who ever went "Iron who?"

21 minutes ago, LudVanB said:

They went with Iron Man as their opening salvo and to be honest going back 48 years I cant remember encountering anyone who ever went "Iron who?"

I was with you till there. I don't know if you are just mis-remembering how things were or you just don't wanna back down from your statement, but here we are at an impasse. Maybe you only hang out with comic book diehards?

They went with Iron Man because they didn't have any of their Top Tier properties. There's a reason Iron Man and the Avengers for the most part were still left on the table for Marvel to use when they launched their MCU. They didn't have the name recognition or exposure the other characters had. Sort of like Ms. Marvel or She-Hulk now. They are in cartoons and comics, but have yet to really penetrate into the wider culture.

I grew up as Iron Man as my favourite hero. I’m old, so this is way before the movies

3 hours ago, phillos said:

I was with you till there. I don't know if you are just mis-remembering how things were or you just don't wanna back down from your statement, but here we are at an impasse. Maybe you only hang out with comic book diehards?

no I really don't. Very few people I know are comic book enthusiasts...I was never much of one either actually. Most of my knowledge of Marvel comics comes from a rpg I played a lot when i was younger that used to be produced by TSR, now wizards of the coast ,called Marvel super heroes. They used to release large folder packs with detailed powers and histories of even the most obscure marvel characters. I don't think Iron man was ever anywhere as popular as say spider man but every pictures or posters I ve ever seen where they would show a bunch of Marvel heroes grouped together, he was always front and center along with Spidey, hulk, Captain America, Thor, some of the X-Men and the fantastic four

1 hour ago, Ywingscum said:

I grew up as Iron Man as my favourite hero. I’m old, so this is way before the movies

I wouldn't consider Iron Man to be a particular favourite of mine, but there's no doubt about how massively popular he was when I started reading comics and how popular he has remained for decades.