We don't have much chance of taking him out from our position. Varactyl squad is under strength and we'd be going up against tanks on the ground, which is not the greatest of tactical positions.

11 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

So how exactly does that work?

We get one chance to heal it, and if we succeed it removes the +10, but if we fail it's permanent? Or does it work like a normal crit? What difficulty is the crit?

Hawk's "crit" was healed by Mireska, but she failed on Havoc's.

How about we up the percentage to 80 get crits per minion group and you get unlimited attempts to heal a crit with res the same as a PC (healing a crit doesn't revive the dead, or grow back a limb, and you can heal one crit per minion group per day)

4 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

How about we up the percentage to 80 get crits per minion group and you get unlimited attempts to heal a crit with res the same as a PC (healing a crit doesn't revive the dead, or grow back a limb, and you can heal one crit per minion group per day)

So instead of suffering a number of wounds, the Minion group as a whole gets a crit when a weapon's critical rating is triggered on an attack targeting them.

When a Minion is incapacitated, the roll to determine death is 80.

Is there any +10 for previous incapacitations, or only for crits?

16 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

So instead of suffering a number of wounds, the Minion group as a whole gets a crit when a weapon's critical rating is triggered on an attack targeting them.

When a Minion is incapacitated, the roll to determine death is 80.

Is there any +10 for previous incapacitations, or only for crits?

Incapacitation counts as a crit (just like for a pc). But yeah. If you crit on an incapacitation it adds +10 to this only roll. Failed roll from damage plus crit kills one not 2 clones unless the damage itself was enough to incapacitate 2 clones (they get separate rolls)

Just now, EliasWindrider said:

Incapacitation counts as a crit (just like for a pc). But yeah

So to clarify, it's a +10 for both crits and previous incapacitations, and you can't remove the +10 from previous incapacitations.

@Bellona based on the healing trance house rule you asked for I was expecting you not to be able to heal yourself through normal application of the heal force power, and I was expecting a narrative of Mireska not liking the medical ward when she was there as a patient rather than a healer. But whatever. What's your understanding of heal.

48 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

So to clarify, it's a +10 for both crits and previous incapacitations, and you can't remove the +10 from previous incapacitations.

Adversary scores a crit on minion group => minion incapacitated roll crit against 80% succeed or fail that 1 crit and a +10 to subsequent rolls

Adversary deals damage that exceeds 1 threshold => minion incapacitated, roll crit against 80%, succeed or fail that's 1 crit and a +10 to subsequent rolls

Adversary deals damage that exceeds 1 threshold and with triumph and/or advantage sufficient to inflict 1 a crit => 1 minion incapacitated and roll one +10% crit against 80%, succeed or fail that's one crit and a +10 to subsequent rolls

Adversary deals enough damage to exceed 2 thresholds => 2 minions incapacitated first crit is against 80% second crit is +10% vs 80, succeed or fail that's +20% to subsequent rolls

Adversary deals enough damage to exceed 2 threshold and triumph or advantage to inflict 1 crit => 2 minions incapacitated, first crit is +10% against 80%, second crit is +20% vs 80%, succeed or fail that's +20% to subsequent rolls

The durable talent would help your men survive being incapacitated.

12 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

@Bellona based on the healing trance house rule you asked for I was expecting you not to be able to heal yourself through normal application of the heal force power, and I was expecting a narrative of Mireska not liking the medical ward when she was there as a patient rather than a healer. But whatever. What's your understanding of heal.

Mireska would probably be a lousy patient in a medbay/hospital!

My own understanding of the Heal power is that it's a more specialised/focused method of using the Force than what is learned through the Healer tree from the Consular career. Most of the Healer tree is focused on the use of the Medicine skill in one way or another. A Healer could theoretically not be trained in much/any of the Heal power (although learning the Heal power is recommended). I suspect that many Force-users with access to the right teachings could learn the basic form of Heal, but it takes a lot of dedication (and XP!) to get the entire power tree.

My particular beef with the Healing Trance talent was the absolute disconnect between the name and the RAW effect. Legends and earlier versions of the game had forms of healing trance which actually involved trances (and reduced the need for air/food/water), unlike the FFG version which is basically "commit a Force die and go your merry way, healing yourself while playing through multiple combat encounters" (which definitely isn't very trance-like).

(Furthermore, the FFG version of the Healing Trance talent can only be used by the person who has the talent. Earlier versions of healing trance sometimes had the user able to put other Force-users into such a trance.)

So I'm very grateful that you were willing to change that particular talent from RAW.

Mireska is most likely to use her (house-ruled) Healing Trance ability if she has taken enough damage in one day that she has already used up her personal daily limit of using five stimpacks/Heals on herself and has not achieved good enough results from applications of the Medicine skill (which are on a 1/encounter basis when it comes to first aid). Then she'd likely drop into a healing trance overnight. Situations with low food supplies or low oxygen could also merit use of her healing trance. (Low oxygen is not as dangerous now that she has an alchemical talisman.)

If Mireska is ever unlucky enough to be blown out into space, her talisman would protect her from the vacuum/environmental dangers, but she would still be in danger of dehydrating/starving if not found in time - so that would another good time to drop into a healing trance. (Hmmm, a possible Order 66 survival tactic if we don't manage to de-rail Palpatine's plan?)

1 hour ago, Bellona said:

If Mireska is ever unlucky enough to be blown out into space, her talisman would protect her from the vacuum/environmental dangers, but she would still be in danger of dehydrating/starving if not found in time - so that would another good time to drop into a healing trance. (Hmmm, a possible Order 66 survival tactic if we don't manage to de-rail Palpatine's plan?)

well, theres always....

@P-47 Thunderbolt

Would the following Mandalorian rituals/phrases be applicable to current clone beliefs?

" Ni su'cuyi, gar kyr'adyc, ni partayli, gar darasuum " ("I'm still alive, but you are dead. I remember you, so you are eternal"), a daily remembrance which includes a repetition of the names of the fallen.

" Nu kyr'adyc, shi taab'echaaj'la " ("Not gone, merely marching far away"), meant as a tribute to a dead comrade.

For some, and I actually intended to bring that up for Camouflage "tonight." I even went through and named his entire platoon.

Most clones have a tenuous relationship with Mandalorians/Mando'a, like knowing "Vode An" and maybe "Dha Werda Verda," but most would be fairly unfamiliar with finer points of the culture. In Camouflage's case, as an ARC trooper he was directly trained by a Mandalorian instructor who instilled a great deal of the culture into him, as is not uncommon among ARCs and Commandos trained by Mandalorian Cuy'val Dar.

@EliasWindrider

Have Camo, Jorin, Mireska, etc. actually returned to the garrison yet?

I'm not certain as to where we are with regard to a screenwipe, etc.

For example, once back at the garrison Mireska wants to take another stab at removing the CI/whatever which incapacitated Havoc, using mundane Medicine this time. Obviously no cybernetic installation yet - unless cybernetics are already available?

Also, how do you want to tackle the Jedi finding their Christophsis crystals - do you want to narrate part/all of it yourself, or leave it to the Jedi-players? (If there's an informal funeral ritual for Havoc Fury in the crystal grove at sunset, I was thinking of Mireska - possibly the others too - hearing the crystals' songs in the Force as the "trees" react to the setting sun.)

@EliasWindrider , I'm not sure how I feel about the crits vs. the +10 for incapacitations. I think we're getting to the point of being too confusing, so I'd like to try and simplify it by separating the two categories:

Incapacitations:
Roll against 70. If it's over 70, the Minion dies. If it's under 70, add +10 to that Minion's next incapacitation roll. This cannot be removed.

Crits:
1. RAW. Crits cause the Minion group to suffer X wounds.
2. Roll crits like you would for a Rival or Nemesis. When the group's WT is exceeded (all clones down), roll another Critical Injury. Crits are healed for the group and affect the group (adding +10 to future crits against the group), but crits with effects like a lost limb only affect a specific trooper.
3. If an attack fails to do sufficient damage to incapacitate a Minion, a crit can be triggered to force a "death roll," adding +10 for each additional time it is triggered. If the attack deals sufficient damage to incapacitate a Minion, the weapon's critical rating can be triggered to add +10 to the "death roll." This deals no Wounds to the minion group. A successful "death roll" results in a future +10 to that minion's "death rolls," while an unsuccessful "death roll" results in the minion's death, adjusting wounds as appropriate.

Pros and cons:
1. Simple, familiar. The drawback is that it greatly reduces their survivability.
2. It adds some granularity that I like, but it also introduces some confusion, complication, and narrative difficulty because the crits are designed for individuals. Some, like adding a Setback to the next check or causing them to be staggered for a single round, are pretty easily applicable. Others, like Hamstrung or On the Brink, don't make as much narrative sense.
3. A middle ground with no major points for or against, as far as I see.

I think I prefer the third option. It serves more as an addendum to the Incapacitation rules rather than as a separate set. If we go with the first or second option, we should separate it from the incapacitations to keep things simple and straight forward.

54 minutes ago, Bellona said:

@EliasWindrider

Have Camo, Jorin, Mireska, etc. actually returned to the garrison yet?

I'm not certain as to where we are with regard to a screenwipe, etc.

For example, once back at the garrison Mireska wants to take another stab at removing the CI/whatever which incapacitated Havoc, using mundane Medicine this time. Obviously no cybernetic installation yet - unless cybernetics are already available?

Also, how do you want to tackle the Jedi finding their Christophsis crystals - do you want to narrate part/all of it yourself, or leave it to the Jedi-players? (If there's an informal funeral ritual for Havoc in the crystal grove at sunset, I was thinking of Mireska - possibly the others too - hearing the crystals' songs in the Force as the "trees" react to the setting sun.)

Which brings up Jorin.. He'll most likely acquire Havoc's Fury's bracers and hand armor, and start wearing them as a memorial... As for the Crystals, I would still like to have him recreate the shoto as well.. Would he be able to find a second Chrystophis*, or would he be able to take a trip to Ilium during "behind the scenes"

* I've seen a cut scene of Fallen Order where Cal has a crystal split in half, that allows him to create a detachable shoto.. kind of interesting dual blade saber/ shoto... (is that something that is allowed to be made in Edge of Empire?)

@Bellona , @RuusMarev , it's Fury, not Havoc (yet, at least).

4 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

@Bellona , @RuusMarev , it's Fury, not Havoc (yet, at least).

oops...

7 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

@EliasWindrider , I'm not sure how I feel about the crits vs. the +10 for incapacitations. I think we're getting to the point of being too confusing, so I'd like to try and simplify it by separating the two categories:

Incapacitations:
Roll against 70. If it's over 70, the Minion dies. If it's under 70, add +10 to that Minion's next incapacitation roll. This cannot be removed.

Crits:
1. RAW. Crits cause the Minion group to suffer X wounds.
2. Roll crits like you would for a Rival or Nemesis. When the group's WT is exceeded (all clones down), roll another Critical Injury. Crits are healed for the group and affect the group (adding +10 to future crits against the group), but crits with effects like a lost limb only affect a specific trooper.
3. If an attack fails to do sufficient damage to incapacitate a Minion, a crit can be triggered to force a "death roll," adding +10 for each additional time it is triggered. If the attack deals sufficient damage to incapacitate a Minion, the weapon's critical rating can be triggered to add +10 to the "death roll." This deals no Wounds to the minion group. A successful "death roll" results in a future +10 to that minion's "death rolls," while an unsuccessful "death roll" results in the minion's death, adjusting wounds as appropriate.

Pros and cons:
1. Simple, familiar. The drawback is that it greatly reduces their survivability.
2. It adds some granularity that I like, but it also introduces some confusion, complication, and narrative difficulty because the crits are designed for individuals. Some, like adding a Setback to the next check or causing them to be staggered for a single round, are pretty easily applicable. Others, like Hamstrung or On the Brink, don't make as much narrative sense.
3. A middle ground with no major points for or against, as far as I see.

I think I prefer the third option. It serves more as an addendum to the Incapacitation rules rather than as a separate set. If we go with the first or second option, we should separate it from the incapacitations to keep things simple and straight forward.

I thought crit exactly equal to incapacitation, rolling against a percentile for death upon crit/incapacitation and only tracking number of crit/incapacitations per minion group was the *simplest* thing. Everything else flows directly from that in the simplest most logical fashion.

Crits can be healed removed from the permanent record, durable works against crits.

Just now, EliasWindrider said:

I thought crit exactly equal to incapacitation, rolling against a percentile for death upon crit/incapacitation and only tracking number of crit/incapacitations per minion group was the *simplest* thing. Everything else flows directly from that in the simplest most logical fashion.

Well I struggled to understand the set of rules you put out, and they felt seriously complicated. And for me to say that, it means something.

I'd just as soon not track crits and just use the third option I laid out, as rolling for crits seems that it would be finicky. I record +10s for past incapacitations individually, as it represents that particular clone's "plot armor" and if you record it by group, either their plot armor doesn't run out since Mireska keeps healing it away (aside form the 30% chance of death), or it gets to the point where there is no point rolling and every dropped clone is dead.

37 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Well I struggled to understand the set of rules you put out, and they felt seriously complicated. And for me to say that, it means something.

I'd just as soon not track crits and just use the third option I laid out, as rolling for crits seems that it would be finicky. I record +10s for past incapacitations individually, as it represents that particular clone's "plot armor" and if you record it by group, either their plot armor doesn't run out since Mireska keeps healing it away (aside form the 30% chance of death), or it gets to the point where there is no point rolling and every dropped clone is dead.

You were asking the wrong (weirdly specific super narrow) question and insisting I answer it so I gave examples (rather than rules). Bad questions have bad answers.

Explaining the rules that generated the examples...

Each time you incapacitate a minion by damage you roll a crit just like you do for a pc.

As per raw a crit (by triumph or advantage) incapacitates a minion (because it deals a minions worth of wounds)

Those 2 lines means the exact equivalence between a crit and an incapacitation goes both ways .

Per RAW If you were to put a PC over their would threshold and trigger a crit through triumph/advantage you roll 1 crit at +10 rather than 2 crits. The same now applies to EACH minion in a group.

Unlike raw damage from damage does not stack with damage from a crit triggered by advantage or triumph, you take the larger.

The only part that complicates this at all is multiple minions can be incapacitated by a single attack by dealing enough damage to exceed multiple minions' thresholds. In that case you sequentially roll crits for each minion and if triumph/advantage was also used to activate a crit, each incapacitated minion adds the extra +10 to their roll.

As per RAW for PC's each crit you take adds +10 to the critical percentile roll.

This is a extremely minor departure from raw.

Your bad question was insisting i spell out the distinctions between tracking crits and tracking incapacitation. It was a bad question because I already told you there s no distinction between crits and incapacitations. They aren't two different things that follow the same rules and you have to figure out how to mesh them, they are the same single thing. A crit is an incapacitation is a crit.

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

Your bad question was insisting i spell out the distinctions between tracking crits and tracking incapacitation. It was a bad question because I already told you there s no distinction between crits and incapacitations. They aren't two different things that follow the same rules and you have to figure out how to mesh them, they are the same single thing. A crit is an incapacitation is a crit.

Upon rereading the exchange, I see what happened. You said "An incapacitation counts as a crit." To me that means that incapacitation results in a critical injury, not that an incapacitation is the same as a crit, an important distinction. You did not specify that you were discarding the incapacitation system, and so I was led to believe that it was a fusion of the two.

17 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Each time you incapacitate a minion by damage you roll a crit just like you do for a pc.
As per raw a crit (by triumph or advantage) incapacitates a minion
Those 2 lines means the exact equivalence between a crit and an incapacitation goes both ways .
Per RAW If you were to put a PC over their would threshold and trigger a crit through triumph/advantage you roll 1 crit at +10 rather than 2 crits. The same now applies to EACH minion in a group.
The only part that complicates this at all is multiple minions can be incapacitated by a single attack by dealing enough damage to exceed multiple minions' thresholds. In that case you sequentially roll crits for each minion and if triumph/advantage was also used to activate a crit, each incapacitated minion adds the extra +10 to their roll.
As per RAW for PC's each crit you take adds +10 to the critical percentile roll.

Okay, I understand you now, but I still disagree. One of my major objections is that you can't narratively square most of the crits on the table because they are made for individuals. I also don't like that a character's death chance is affected by the others.

Let's say a group of B1s fires at Varactyl squad, succeeding and triggering a crit. They drop a single trooper. So now:
Sudden Jolt: The target drops whatever is in hand. So does that make every trooper drop his rifle? Why? How?
Bowled Over: The target is knocked prone and suffers 1 strain. So it knocks them all down?
Head Ringer, Fearsome Wound, Agonizing Wound: Increases the difficulty of [Characteristic+Characteristic] checks by one until the end of the encounter. How does one trooper's injury cause the others to increase the difficulty to shoot?
Hamstrung: The target loses his free maneuver until the end of the encounter. How does one trooper's injury prevent the entire squad from aiming before they shoot, or moving and shooting? It just doesn't make narrative sense.

Some of the results can be narratively twisted to fit, especially the short term ones, but these in particular just don't make narrative sense unless you really stretch it.

I think it would work best to use the incapacitation system, using crits to force "death rolls" and/or increase the result. Very similar, but simpler since you ignore the crit table and death chances are different, with less chance for long-term survival but less chance to have multiple deaths at once.

9 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Upon rereading the exchange, I see what happened. You said "An incapacitation counts as a crit." To me that means that incapacitation results in a critical injury, not that an incapacitation is the same as a crit, an important distinction. You did not specify that you were discarding the incapacitation system, and so I was led to believe that it was a fusion of the two.

Okay, I understand you now, but I still disagree. One of my major objections is that you can't narratively square most of the crits on the table because they are made for individuals. I also don't like that a character's death chance is affected by the others.

Let's say a group of B1s fires at Varactyl squad, succeeding and triggering a crit. They drop a single trooper. So now:
Sudden Jolt: The target drops whatever is in hand. So does that make every trooper drop his rifle? Why? How?
Bowled Over: The target is knocked prone and suffers 1 strain. So it knocks them all down?
Head Ringer, Fearsome Wound, Agonizing Wound: Increases the difficulty of [Characteristic+Characteristic] checks by one until the end of the encounter. How does one trooper's injury cause the others to increase the difficulty to shoot?
Hamstrung: The target loses his free maneuver until the end of the encounter. How does one trooper's injury prevent the entire squad from aiming before they shoot, or moving and shooting? It just doesn't make narrative sense.

Some of the results can be narratively twisted to fit, especially the short term ones, but these in particular just don't make narrative sense unless you really stretch it.

I think it would work best to use the incapacitation system, using crits to force "death rolls" and/or increase the result. Very similar, but simpler since you ignore the crit table and death chances are different, with less chance for long-term survival but less chance to have multiple deaths at once.

Not using the PC critical hit table. The minion crit table is

1%-79% = unconscious

80%+ = dead.

So it kind of is a fusion

11 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Not using the PC critical hit table. The minion crit table is

1%-79% = unconscious

80%+ = dead.

So it kind of is a fusion

So it isn't really critical injuries then. That's why I was drawing a distinction with "death rolls."

And based on precedence, wouldn't it be 81+ = dead? That makes it an 80% chance of survival and a 20% chance of death.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

So it isn't really critical injuries then. That's why I was drawing a distinction with "death rolls."

And based on precedence, wouldn't it be 81+ = dead? That makes it an 80% chance of survival and a 20% chance of death.

151+ is insta death for PCs, so it's not substantially different except a different critical hit table with only 2 options.

You're right 81%+ is instadeath