On 8/22/2019 at 2:49 AM, Blail Blerg said:

What's your most brutal and powerful death shrimp (Res bomber) build?

I want things to die. I want to look at them and see them wither before my eyes. I want to throw this ship right into the fray, up the enemies alley and punch them in the face.

I was thinking PS1 or Vennie + VTG. A few problems: 1 more upgrades it starts getting expensive fast. 2. Vennie isn't PS1. 3. Darn thing has no Reinforce and other mods to save it.

Psst. Hey, you want some angled deflectiors?

22 minutes ago, Roller of blanks said:

Psst. Hey, you want some angled deflectiors?

I think you gotta Holdo it in every turn from like an Awing or something or Pod, which makes it kinda eh.

I think the death shrimp is over priced as is also...

Poor, poor angled deflectors. I don't know what about them terrifies FFG, but in 2E I've never seen something so DOA. Right now it's just a trap for players who haven't seen the analysis of why they're bad, but maybe in a few months FFG will loosen their grip and pay ships to equip it. I am still amused though by the FO player who combined it with Fanatical and Advanced Optics on Scorch: never use the reinforce action, just equip it to start fanatical. Now that's fantastic jank!

Death Shrimp is my favorite Resistance ship thematically, but man is it frail. All that health counts for little against focused fire, and it's an expensive ship to lose so easily. Expensive means high-priority target, not a great start. No elite slot for Heroic, for some reason (most heroic **** ship in the movies!). It's made to launch bombs but it's a lumbering large base with a not-great dial, so other factions' ships do it better. Finch is made to place or drop bombs, but that's a lot of points for a tricky game mechanism on a unmaneuverable ship. Double-tapping would be frightening, but that many points for a 2-dice 2nd tap is underwhelming (and the lack of a k-turn means it's a short-term threat). Vennie should be long-lived with Finn + Rose and/or Rey, but with that many points he's still an attractive points pinata (and now Finn Pilot is a better damage soaker). Edon with mines may have potential with all these ace lists (after the mines expansion drops)? And Vennie has potential somewhere . But whatever we do, they're still points pinatas in this meta. It's just in an awkward place.

But for casual night? I still love double starfortresses: see Version A , Version B

I also have friends who like to run Vennie with 3 A-Wings (maybe something like this ). But even so, I haven't seen a death shrimp on the table in a long time.

Unfortunately it’s just too expensive and too easy to alpha. It really wants to be a blocker or range one for that 4+3 VTG.

Thats why anger deflectors holdo sounds like something you’d wanna do but.... eh. It’s all too expensive.

The ship itself is prob too expensive. Any good upgrades just make it worse.

It really wants to be ps1 so even vennie is a bad deal. Vennie plus perceptive is 12 points. Ew.

Makes me sad we don’t have enhanced scopes for stuff like death shrimp and the cow and the batwing. Jendon and Kagi would really like it.

Uhhh no. These are really bad......

This would be a freaking excellent list.

Its probable if the Cobalts go down 4 to 52 x2. And Rey going down a point. Yes, it'd be nice to have maybe 5-6 more points somewhere for an informant and or Korr Sella. At that point, these ships take up sooo much danger space. And Rey is a good mobile end game piece.

Cobalt Squadron Bomber (56)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)

Cobalt Squadron Bomber (56)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)

Rey (73)
Heightened Perception (3)
Rey’s Millennium Falcon (5)
Total: 209

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

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This is currently possible. Would be nice to have 4 points for 1 point bid, Heroic and Black One. Or eBaffle

Cobalt Squadron Bomber (56)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)

Cobalt Squadron Bomber (56)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)

Poe Dameron (68)
R2 Astromech (4)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Jamming Beam (0)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Uhhh no. These are really bad......

Which ones are? The lists I linked to?

Yea, that's why I said casual night. When you're playing a lighter meta (A- or B- or C-class games instead of S-class), suddenly the death shrimp becomes loads of fun! I'm not kidding, and it's a big reason I love casual games. Some of my favorite ships are fantastic when playing a different meta.

That brings up an interesting point that's been at the back of my brain. Fighting games, pokemon, smash bros, etc tend to have tiers for their characters, and competitions within each tier. Each tier has its own meta, meaning you could legit have a reason to raise your favorite crap pokemon (Parasect!) competitively or get good at your favorite D-Tier Smash Bros character.

I haven't seen that done in X-Wing. I wonder if it's worth pursuing. I'd expect a lively, perhaps overly-lively debate about where exactly each pilot resides, and how certain iterations of that pilot (how they're equipped, who flies with them) adjust this, but that discussion is also a big draw of the tiered system. And tournaments would give a strong indicator of which pilots/fleets need to move up or down a tier, regardless of strongly-held opinions. The tiers would flux with each update, refreshing the meta within each tier and creating whole new opportunities. In a tiered tournament system, we don't have just one meta getting exciting new switchups, we have many ! And everyone can have different lists for the tiers where they like to compete. Those ships that never see use in s-tier now have a well-defined niche where they're meaningful. Kestal is objectively junk in S-Tier, but in C-Tier perhaps she suddenly has a well-defined niche in the meta, and is maybe even feared in her tier.

IMO the greatest challenge is this is a squad game. Except in furball, you're not fielding a single fighter, you're fielding a fleet. Unlike Pokemon, your whole team works together as a cohesive whole, and some ships are extremely effective in the right team and junk otherwise. Each ship can be equipped myriad ways. What would 1e's Paratanni be without any one of its pilots or attanni mindlink? This is the largest technical risk, and I'm interested in seeing if it's surmountable.

But here's a first pass at a 6-tier system, which will be wrong and especially my examples will be wrong. First pass here.

S - Best of the best, top-tier tournament winners, extremely efficient, etc. Example: Jedi aces

A - Great ships/lists that often prey on the S Tier lists in the right combinations, but see less use than S-Tier because they're not quite home runs out of the box. Example: Wedge

B - Good ships/lists held back from glory by slight overcosting or moderate flaws, hard counters, etc. Not frequently used, but sometimes you see them in a strong fleet. Example: Sai, Wullffwarro

C - Disused ships with potential. Example: Torani

D - Bargain Bin ships that don't see much playtime except in casual. Example: Kestal, StarFortress

F - Have to be pretty **** dedicated to this ship to fly it. FFG failed hard. Example: Jumpmaster during 2.0's release.

(I'm inclined to have fewer tiers, but meh I'll start with the grading system I've seen elsewhere)

The problem is if the tiers are pilot-based, then each pilot has exactly one or two fleets where they can exist in that tier. If it's fleet-based, then it's easier to rank but it potentially denies many individual pilots their niche? (maybe?) I don't know the right way to go with it, but I'm inclined to go with a hybrid where pilots have their tiers, but certain equipment or fleet combos bump them up a tier. So both pilots and fleets have tiers, with the pilot tier being the typical case not counting very specific strong fleets. Oye! That will be even harder to manage. 😕

Thoughts? I can take this to another thread btw so I'm not derailing this one. I just though I'd bring it up since... StarFortress is a monster a few levels below S-Tier, and suddenly our beloved death shrimp is playing as it was meant to be played.

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Resistance&d=v8ZsZ200Z293XWWW88W90W69W70WY291XWWW88W90W71W70WY240X122WWW&sn=Death Shrimps&obs=

This is a fun build with two Star Fortresses. Tallissan acts as a flanker and ace blocker, if needed.

55 minutes ago, Wazat said:

Which ones are? The lists I linked to?

Yea, that's why I said casual night. When you're playing a lighter meta (A- or B- or C-class games instead of S-class), suddenly the death shrimp becomes loads of fun! I'm not kidding, and it's a big reason I love casual games. Some of my favorite ships are fantastic when playing a different meta.

*snip good stuff*

Thoughts? I can take this to another thread btw so I'm not derailing this one. I just though I'd bring it up since... StarFortress is a monster a few levels below S-Tier, and suddenly our beloved death shrimp is playing as it was meant to be played.

good thoughts.

Yeah. I have a tier system I use. The main issue is just to avoid too much argument and detail:

Tier 1 - Wins/top1/constant finals/top4s at tournaments - this includes everything and anything meta and effective net lists. Comprise 80-90% of what you see at competitive tourney.

Tier 2 - Very very decent lists that can win vs some Tier 1s, but are generally home-brews, not net lists. Comprise the last 10-20% or so of random weird lists that are very good especially theoretically. Often contain elements of Tier 1 lists in isolation.

Tier 3 - everything else, trash, jank, junk. - generally gets eaten alive by Tier 1 with a win rate under 40%. Can be made into a strictly better list by substituting certain parts.

----

My call for suggestions thread is generally about finding Tier 1 and 2, I just generally don't have enough time to really wade thru the Tier 3 stuff. I like making good Tier 2 lists. And either I or the opponent feel bad when we mismatch a Tier 3 vs a Tier 1 accidentally.

----

Yeah pokemon has a tiering system, and its based on statistical use data (plus some theory), its a data driven model. I think that's the only way you'd ever get any sort of consensus. Also, I generally would rather have more point balancing and fewer tiers. I honestly think 3 tiers is plenty. Its better to just have a lot of ships be viable in the general ecosystem.

----

Yeah, also finding out the little thing that makes the ship click can also be literally theoretically game breaking. I had a 6 Zs list in 1.0 that I reckon had easily 55% win rate vs 50-75% of the Tier 1 lists at the time. Had a lot to do with how I flew it. In two triangle formations not too far apart. My crown jewel Tier 2 list.

Yea, that sounds pretty good.

I play tier 2 and 3. I tend to avoid flying a fleet once it's entered tier 1, because if one player is using it, both players have to or it's pretty imbalanced (unless the tier 2 or 3 player is quite skilled; sometimes that can be fun).

On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 4:28 PM, Blail Blerg said:

Please tell us how that goes. Especially against some I6 I5 lists.

I assume you're doing the (I3 + cracks) x4

So the hyperspace event was today, and the result was a top 4. I'll just give an opponent and result for each round.

Round 1: Four Y-ion list - Win

Round 2: Two Jedi list - Win

Round 3: Seven Separatist swarm - loss (by 3 pts on last turn)

Round 4: Seven Separatist swarm - Win

Top 8: Republic beef (2 arcs, Y and Obi) - Win

Top 4: Rebel beef (4 Bs and Ion Y) - Loss (by about 40 points, with numerous 4 dice attacks generating no hits)

The two games I lost I feel that I really had a better than even chance to win.

So the bottom line is, these guys are absolutely the real thing. While I'm not sure how effective they'd be in an extended event, I would not hesitate taking them to any Hyperspace event.

They are a list that takes a some practice, but that practice is worth it. I'd guess that most people have flown against Guri at some point in time. I doubt that most people have flown against four.

I only had one game against higher initiative ships, so the sample size is small. I have flown several games against aces, though, and you just have to be a little more conservative.

All in all, these guys are awesome.

PS: And according to the comments, really annoying to fly against...

Seriously... I don't know why I'd want to use this...

And then there's chopper. Is it better on a I2 or an I6 or I5? Is Obiwan funny with Chopper? =/ Feels like the Standard builds are just better.

--

"Goji" (34)
Dorsal Turret (3)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)
Proximity Mines (6)

Red Squadron Bomber (33)
Dorsal Turret (3)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)
Proximity Mines (6)

Red Squadron Bomber (33)
Dorsal Turret (3)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)
Proximity Mines (6)

Ric Olié (42)
Daredevil (3)
R2 Astromech (4)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Well @Blail Blerg , I took my filthy casual list to the Intermountain Cup and had a blast! I didn't have as much practice as I'd like because I spent so much time trying different assorted lists, and dead-end iterations of this list, but I got 6th out of 36 with this jank, so that's something! And I was painfully close to the top four, losing in a really bad matchup to a cagey aces list (and a really good player). I wish I'd been paired against literally anyone else for that final fight -- I'm pretty confident I'd have picked the other lists apart -- but oh well. Here's the TTT link to see lists and MOV/SOS/etc.

I'm really happy I got my hands on Targeting Computer. It landed right on time and allowed me to swap Dutch for Wedge on my final practice day, giving me a solid 2nd attacker (and ace!) while still giving Wullff locks for the all-important full attack modification on 4 - 7 dice.

• Wullffwarro with Trick Shot + Saw + Targeting Computer
• Jan Ors with title
• Wedge with Outmaneuver + R2 Astromech + S-Foils

198 points ( view in YASB 2.0 )

I ended up liking this three-ship list more than the dutch and/or four-ship variants I spent most of my time testing; this has teeth and a lot of threat I can split up or concentrate. With more practice I could have gone farther; I didn't settle on this iteration with Wedge until my last practice day, and didn't fight anything meta that day, so I didn't get to work out my strategy and approach anywhere near as much as I'd like. So I'm extremely surprised and pleased I didn't just lose all day long! That was seriously my expectation, and I went in with the attitude that if I just had fun and didn't spend all day getting trampled, it was a successful day. Instead I did surprisingly well. My only two losses were the final fight trying to get into the the top four (against that cagey empire aces), and against a very bulky and damaging Jess-Temmin-Bastian-Lulo (crack shot + predator) list where I feel I came incredibly close to turning things to my advantage (and lost due to several bad mistakes and being nervous and jittery). Getting a first-round buy probably helped (from winning the last IMC with triple auzitucks 2 years ago in first edition), but still by all counts I shouldn't even have made it into the top 8; I did far better than I'd hoped, so I'm very pleased.

On the down side, all-day tournaments are grueling wars of mental and emotional attrition. 14 hours of x-wing, save for two 30-minute meal breaks. I survived on caffeine by drinking unsweetened tea all day (I've never been a caffeine person, so that was new), and would have otherwise been mush by the 4th round (as in past tournaments). I don't know if I want to keep doing serious tournaments. That's enough to burn me out fast... and I don't want to stop liking this game. I'll have to see if I'm up for another any time in the near future... I think a regionals tourney is coming up and kinda feel like passing on it.

Conclusion : For what it's worth from the words of a pathological casual, Wullffwarro War Crimes is a very fun list and I recommend giving it a few tries!

@Wazat congrats! Yeah I can’t rver do that many hour of xwing lol.

Nicely done. Yeah this list looks a lot better. It’s ceryainly got elements of other good lists too.

I had a similar list in 1.0 with keyan opportunist Jan and Wes for 7 TL F. And then of course 9 TL F with norra 2 Awings with evade and Jan

thise are fun. And you’re looks very fun.

(Sadly I don’t have an Auzi tuck lol! )

Oh gods. I tried 2 Nantex. I'm hooked... I should get 4 of these...

This was an incredible list. So many options.

Sun Fac (54)
Ensnare (24)

Chertek (39)
Ensnare (10)

Darth Maul (67)
Tractor Beam (2)
General Grievous (3)
Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

On 9/21/2019 at 10:02 PM, underling said:

So the hyperspace event was today, and the result was a top 4. I'll just give an opponent and result for each round.

Round 1: Four Y-ion list - Win

Round 2: Two Jedi list - Win

Round 3: Seven Separatist swarm - loss (by 3 pts on last turn)

Round 4: Seven Separatist swarm - Win

Top 8: Republic beef (2 arcs, Y and Obi) - Win

Top 4: Rebel beef (4 Bs and Ion Y) - Loss (by about 40 points, with numerous 4 dice attacks generating no hits)

The two games I lost I feel that I really had a better than even chance to win.

So the bottom line is, these guys are absolutely the real thing. While I'm not sure how effective they'd be in an extended event, I would not hesitate taking them to any Hyperspace event.

They are a list that takes a some practice, but that practice is worth it. I'd guess that most people have flown against Guri at some point in time. I doubt that most people have flown against four.

I only had one game against higher initiative ships, so the sample size is small. I have flown several games against aces, though, and you just have to be a little more conservative.

All in all, these guys are awesome.

PS: And according to the comments, really annoying to fly against...

Yeah.... I didn't have any doubts about it vs swarm at I2. Its against I6s that I wanted to know about... So this doesn't currently tell me much.

The two jedi list is silly. Republic beef and Obi only is ... okay...

Like I wanted to see vs Anakin Obi Ric for instance. Or Imp Aces

Also I have Tier 1 hyper competitive lists for all factions except Scum, Res and FO now. (FO right now using Kylo Skb Skb).

Suggestions?

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Scum

Ketsu, Teroch plus one is still a beast. The tractor and ability queue changes only made a minimal dent, requiring a slight adjustment to the available plays, if anything. It's still evolving too.

I was given quite a harsh lesson in how strong Fenn and Guri can be in the best hands this wknd too. Not recommended for the faint hearted

5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah.... I didn't have any doubts about it vs swarm at I2. Its against I6s that I wanted to know about... So this doesn't currently tell me much.

The two jedi list is silly. Republic beef and Obi only is ... okay...

Like I wanted to see vs Anakin Obi Ric for instance. Or Imp Aces

I didn't get the chance to either of the two mentioned above. But based on my limited experience so far, I think I'd have a reasonable chance of doing well.The winner of our Hyperspace event played a Vader/Grand Inquisitor/Duchess list, and I think I actually would've preferred playing against that list than the 4BY list I played.

I've found that the vipers are really good at going against higher initiative pilots for a couple of reasons:

First, they are really good at blocking, because they can end up in so many places that people don't expect. There were numerous times I'd block a ship, with one or more of the other three ready to engage.
If the block wasn't successful, I'd have the other three positioned to where there was going to be little to no threat from that unblocked ship anyway.

Secondly, they seem to be pretty good at bullying aces. Again, because they can end up in places that most people aren't used to, they can almost guide aces the direction they want them to go.With fairly conservative maneuvering, they can minimize the threats to themselves, while threatening their selected target for the round.
What further amplifies this effect is that it seems most ace players don't like committing their aces together, meaning that usually their aces are split up.
This makes it even easier to threaten one of them, and not be as concerned with the other one or two.

I played a five interceptor/Wampa list a few months ago, and I've played the four phantom list a few times. This four viper list is kind of a cross between those two.
With the added bonus of people just don't realize where they can end up.
A lot of "A" words came up during the six games: annoying, aggravating, asinine, etc...

EDIT: I forgot to mention, another thing that makes them effective is that there are four of them. Higher I aces might be able to arc dodge one or two of them, but probably not all four.

3 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Ketsu, Teroch plus one is still a beast. The tractor and ability queue changes only made a minimal dent, requiring a slight adjustment to the available plays, if anything. It's still evolving too.

I was given quite a harsh lesson in how strong Fenn and Guri can be in the best hands this wknd too. Not recommended for the faint hearted

F/G has basically no room for error.

17 minutes ago, underling said:

F/G has basically no room for error.

Truer words never spoken. 2 different players used it against me. The 1st I lost 200-0 in like 25min. The 2nd I won 200-0 in 40min

16 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Truer words never spoken. 2 different players used it against me. The 1st I lost 200-0 in like 25min. The 2nd I won 200-0 in 40min

Lol...

Seems like that'd be a typical result. Was it the usual 104 pt Guri, and Fenn with either Fearless or Outmaneuver?

For FO, this is one I want to try myself:

"Quickdraw" (45)
Fanatical (2)
Advanced Optics (4)
Special Forces Gunner (10)
Fire-Control System (2)

Ship total: 63 Half Points: 32 Threshold: 3

"Scorch" (34)
Fanatical (2)
Advanced Optics (4)
Angled Deflectors (3)

Ship total: 43 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 2

Kylo Ren (76)
Hate (3)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 83 Half Points: 42 Threshold: 3


Total: 189

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v8ZsZ200Z243X181W186WW182W113WY262X181W186W247Y236X204W186WW&sn=Kylo %2B QD %2B Scorch&obs=

QD naturally wants fanatical, gunner, and FCS; I love that fanatical perfectly complements her ability by picking up where it left off. If you're willing to make her fatter, I've heard some discussion of whether to give her Shield Upgrade.

Kylo is as light as he can be IMO (and he still feels expensive)... He has Hate to make sure his force isn't depleting while taking shots, and Fanatical + Optics to help him land damage, again without dipping too deep into that force pool all at once. I usually see him played fairly squirrely. It's too bad his init isn't 6.

And Scorch is using Angled Deflectors to start Fanatical and hit hard whenever able. It's a silly gimmick but I'm told he does a lot of work in the fleet. You will never reinforce with him btw... just focus every round and Advanced Optics when needed, or save the focus for defense.

FO lacks a force multiplier like Howlrunner so it's hard to field TIE/fo teammates. I think Scorch is a solid choice, but you could do Midnight instead (trading an attack die for blocking mods on target). I've just never seen Midnight on the table, and I suspect price is the reason. Instead of kylo you could do some generics; the TIE/sf is better for fielding generics than the FOs because passive sensors and a missile works pretty well for the points. FOs just feel... toothless, IMO.

Tavson might make a better ally than Kylo; I'm not sure. I'm not especially fond of the Upsilon at the moment, but that's just personal taste.

7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Also I have Tier 1 hyper competitive lists for all factions except Scum, Res and FO now. (FO right now using Kylo Skb Skb).

Suggestions?

Here's a FO fleet that got 1st place at Intermountain Cup:

"Backdraft" TIE/sf Fighter (44)
Crack Shot + Advanced Optics
Omega Squadron Expert TIE/sf Fighter (39)
Crack Shot + Advanced Optics
Omega Squadron Expert TIE/sf Fighter (39)
Crack Shot + Advanced Optics
Omega Squadron Expert TIE/sf Fighter (39)
Crack Shot + Advanced Optics
Omega Squadron Expert TIE/sf Fighter (39)
Crack Shot + Advanced Optics

This one got 8th place:

"Quickdraw" TIE/sf Fighter (59)
Special Forces Gunner + Fire-Control System + Fanatical
Kylo Ren TIE/vn Silencer (76)
Lieutenant Tavson Upsilon-class command shuttle (64)

Also at Intermountain Cup, this Resistance fleet gave me a lot of trouble (edit: it ended with 11th place):

Lieutenant Bastian T-70 X-wing (48)
Integrated S-foils
Jessika Pava T-70 X-wing (51)
Integrated S-foils
Temmin Wexley T-70 X-wing (55)
Integrated S-foils + Composure
L'ulo L'ampar RZ-2 A-wing (46)
Crack Shot + Predator

It's just a massive wall of health and firepower, with a lot of well-modded rolls. A resistance beef, if you will. Standard trick of Temmin deliberately failing his free boost to get focus + lock is really strong. Lulo is a potent attacker. Bastian happily gets free mods as soon as the firepower digs into your hull. And stupid Jessika is there to waste your shots unless you can get her isolated. With Wullffwarro I actually chose to make a 5-dice attack against Temmin instead of a 7-dice attack against Jess, because the 5-dice attack seemed more likely to hit and deal decent damage (and it did).

This fleet was my first loss for the day, though I feel I could have done better with a different approach. The second was against super-cagey imperial aces, a long and super-unfun slog against aces that didn't want to engage until it was bad for me. Bleh.

For scum, this list got 4th place:

Cartel Marauder Kihraxz Fighter (38)
Cartel Marauder Kihraxz Fighter (38)
Cartel Marauder Kihraxz Fighter (38)
Drea Renthal BTL-A4 Y-wing (54)
Ion Cannon Turret
Jakku Gunrunner Quadrijet Transfer Spacetug (32)

I got the impression that he had practiced it quite a bit. But his SOS was really low, so take that for what you will. He dialed in a wrong maneuver (wrong turn direction) for one kihraxz early on and it didn't engage with the rest at the start of combat, and he wondered whether that would have tipped the scales for him and gotten him higher in the rankings. Such a simple mistake; it's amazing what nerves and exhaustion can do to you near the end of a tournament.

More lists from the tournament here: https://tabletop.to/2019-intermountain-cup

I hope that gives you some ideas!

@Wazat yep, good stuff. I know about the 5 Tie SFs, but I'm not buying that.

I've heard that the 4 Res beef is a thing, but that Sinker swarm seems to be better for jousting. Maybe its an issue of getting the highest quality beef.

I'll try the Tavson list. But I think the reason I never made that list variant is that I want different things on my ships I can no longer really get: I'd rather have shield/AB on QD and AdvOptics on Kylo. I do think both of those things make a marked increase in firepower. I'll have to try Tavson to see if those 8 points really benefit there. Generally I find it not necessary to buff the Upsilon's damage.