6 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

Really there is no "hero" here as both princes represent a fundamental threat to the stability of the Empire.

Something that gets me about this whole plot point. We don't know how the other 36 crown princes behaved or grew up. Maybe these two are just par for the course, the way princes always grow up in this system. Do we know anything about the current Emperor as a child from an outside observer? Why are these two all of a sudden a fundamental threat to the Celestial Order when we know almost nothing about the status quo of the other Emperors?

40 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

Something that gets me about this whole plot point. We don't know how the other 36 crown princes behaved or grew up. Maybe these two are just par for the course, the way princes always grow up in this system. Do we know anything about the current Emperor as a child from an outside observer? Why are these two all of a sudden a fundamental threat to the Celestial Order when we know almost nothing about the status quo of the other Emperors?

Clearly, Hantei XXXVIII has serious misgivings about Sotorii, so much so that he's chosen to pass him over for succession. Just as clearly, he has no such qualms about Daisetsu. I realize that some of the folks posting on here have their own take on Daisetsu, which may or may not be partly or wholly correct, but the Emperor has his own. So, inside the setting, the Emperor's change in succession is a cause for concern, sure, but by no means is it necessarily going to be some sort of disaster. In fact, if it could help prevent another Steel Chrysanthemum, it's probably for the best. Again, this is inside the setting and from the Emperor's POV. Outside the setting, here, on this forum, people's musings about the two princes are just that--their musings. We can only wait and see how this all turns out.

As for previous Crown Princes...well, who knows? The Empire's history could be replete with horrible heirs to the Throne, but the Rokugani are notorious for white-washing their history to make everything seem fine. So there may be no way of telling, unless some of the characters decide to embark on some exhaustive search. And, again, going outside the setting, back to our world i.e. where we write the stories...well, I don't think anyone has crafted the history of every Imperial succession in a canon way. Nor is anyone likely to...there's more than enough story to manage for the "modern" setting, much less going back and filling in eleven centuries of stuff.

20 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

As for previous Crown Princes...well, who knows? The Empire's history could be replete with horrible heirs to the Throne, but the Rokugani are notorious for white-washing their history to make everything seem fine. So there may be no way of telling, unless some of the characters decide to embark on some exhaustive search. And, again, going outside the setting, back to our world i.e. where we write the stories...well, I don't think anyone has crafted the history of every Imperial succession in a canon way. Nor is anyone likely to...there's more than enough story to manage for the "modern" setting, much less going back and filling in eleven centuries of stuff.

There are people who have all the history written down or can just ask the people who were there, namely the Kitsune and the Kitsu respectively plus Imperial Historians for what they are worth. I would hope this isn't a 40k setting where no historical records can be trusted although of course there is perspective of the authors and embellishment. We know the passing over for the second son has been done before in the history of Rokugan but this feels different (tm).

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" although that maybe the point. I don't know, I am just over the trope of scifi/fantasy of everything was great and perfect for hundreds/thousands of years then the proverbial camera gets turned on and it all turns to utter chaos and upheaval in a few long weekends. I really like the Age of Declining Virtue as a setting however I am not liking the potential direction for less a decline and more a sprint off a cliff. I am a GM first, card gamer second so the setting and its direction is fascinating to me from a story perspective. Oh well, just my musings too. Cheers for the reply, DG.

It doesn't have to be 40k dramatic for it to be true though. We repeat our past all the time even with a recorded history. People just ignore it, and keep making the same mistakes. In Rokugan where shameful or dishonorable things are likely to get swept under the rug rather than put under the microscope for public scrutiny I'd be surprised if it wasn't a more pronounced phenomenon.

In fact, canonically we know that the Ikoma & other Histories are very biased in how they’re written and what’s included. Recorded events may be inaccurate, but everyone acts as if they aren’t, and if a samurai finds out a shameful truth, the records don’t get updated, you take that **** to the grave.

I seem to recall reading somewhere about a precedent for the imperial families to run interference and cover up campaigns to prevent certain scandals from becoming public knowledge. IIRC there is something like a "secret history" that records the true events, but those records are locked away somewhere secret and safe within the imperial families' control.

EDIT: Of course, now when I try to look it up on the wiki I can't seem to find anything about it...maybe I just imagined the whole thing? ?

Nothing like that exists.

Pay no attention to my Clan mon.

4 hours ago, Kaito Kikaze said:

I seem to recall reading somewhere about a precedent for the imperial families to run interference and cover up campaigns to prevent certain scandals from becoming public knowledge. IIRC there is something like a "secret history" that records the true events, but those records are locked away somewhere secret and safe within the imperial families' control.

EDIT: Of course, now when I try to look it up on the wiki I can't seem to find anything about it...maybe I just imagined the whole thing? ?

"To the Imperial historians of this era, the events of White Stag were a deep embarrassment. A fledgling alliance had already developed between the Ikoma, Shosuro, and Otomo to cleanse and protect the Imperial histories and avoid any aspersion falling upon the throne, and this era strengthened that alliance into an iron unity. Nearly the entirety of Hantei Yugozohime’s reign would be expunged from the records, as would most information about the Gozoku. Within a century, Rokugan would remember her as an incredibly strong Empress who reigned over a time of comparative peace, and whose death was a shocking tragedy that could never have been predicted."

- O5R RPG, Imperial Histories , page 79.

What a silly conspiracy theory.

?

2 hours ago, Manchu said:

What a silly conspiracy theory.

?

*puts on tinfoil kabuto*

The, uh, Phoenix, uhm, most certainly have no idea about... what's that nonsense word? "Go-zo-ku?" How silly!

On November 7, 2018 at 2:35 AM, Yogo Rye X said:

Im probably one of them with the main reason being is that FFG seems to be moving the new L5R stories to be more mature and no longer the simplistic good vs evil kids used to enjoy.

It is no longer like "Haha I am evil so I will use you woman!" but hoping rather due to circumstances and real emotions will the characters grow and their motivation shift and change as events unfold around them.

That's not how the old lore was, either. They were genuinely in love in those stories as well.

On November 7, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Shiba Gunichi said:

Except that every clue he drops her leads her inexorably in a certain direction. And she follows like she's tethered.

She is devoted to him, yes.
But that doesn't mean he's deceiving her.

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 3:19 AM, Kaito Kikaze said:

I seem to recall reading somewhere about a precedent for the imperial families to run interference and cover up campaigns to prevent certain scandals from becoming public knowledge. IIRC there is something like a "secret history" that records the true events, but those records are locked away somewhere secret and safe within the imperial families' control.

EDIT: Of course, now when I try to look it up on the wiki I can't seem to find anything about it...maybe I just imagined the whole thing? ?

The secret history is so secret it's not even on the wiki!

So meta.

13 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

She is devoted to him, yes.
But that doesn't mean he's deceiving her.

You need not deceive to manipulate.

In fact, it often works best when you show the right kind of truth.

On 11/8/2018 at 3:36 PM, Mangod said:

"To the Imperial historians of this era, the events of White Stag were a deep embarrassment. A fledgling alliance had already developed between the Ikoma, Shosuro, and Otomo to cleanse and protect the Imperial histories and avoid any aspersion falling upon the throne, and this era strengthened that alliance into an iron unity. Nearly the entirety of Hantei Yugozohime’s reign would be expunged from the records, as would most information about the Gozoku. Within a century, Rokugan would remember her as an incredibly strong Empress who reigned over a time of comparative peace, and whose death was a shocking tragedy that could never have been predicted."

- O5R RPG, Imperial Histories , page 79.

The problem with this is that the history can't exactly be secret since the Otomo all changed their family crests and prominently display their symbol of "never let an alliance threaten the empire" again whereever they go-- and it is apparently public knowledge that they actively work to keep the clans divided as it was mentioned even in this continuity in the very first story one appeared in.

You can't exactly be keeping an event secret while simultaneously openly admitting that you are dedicated to prevent the event from reoccurring and flying a flag declaring so everywhere you go. And the chance that the Otomo family crest since that time having any other possible meaning has already been tossed away by the writers.

This indicates that everyone who knows enough about the Imperial powers to even know there is an Otomo family basically must also know that there was an alliance that took over Rokugan for a time-- or at least the very idea that there could be is such a serious existential threat that the primary courtiers and cogs of the imperial system make it their #1 priority to prevent such an alliance from ever happening. Which is the same as admitting that an alliance between clans like that would have an extremely high chance of success.

One can't even say "Oh, the three entwined serpents are eating each other's tails because it is a symbol of eternal self-sufficiency, that the empire is in an eternal loop of growth and death", because well-- they aren't biting each other's tails, the tails are entwined and they are biting each other's midsections, and, again, it has already been revealed that everyone knows what their goal is-- which makes it fundamentally impossible to achieve their goal because you can't divide alliances if those alliance already know your #1 priority is to divide alliances.

Really, given that they haven't given much indication that they are keeping any of those old, badly thought out MS Paint created family crests, why on earth did the writers feel it was necessary to insist that one of the dumbest and self-defeating ones that were ever thought up makes it into the new continuity completely intact?

On 11/14/2018 at 6:21 PM, TheHobgoblyn said:

Really, given that they haven't given much indication that they are keeping any of those old, badly thought out MS Paint created family crests

For my money, the Mirumoto mon is the one is most need of an update. The dragon has always looked googly eyed to me and while I know some people love that for the nyuks, in-universe it looks terrible.

2 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

For my money, the Mirumoto mon is the one is most need of an update. The dragon has always looked googly eyed to me and while I know some people love that for the nyuks, in-universe it looks terrible.

The same could be said for the Togashi one. The only one that doesn't look a bit silly is the Agasha one.


Togashi. Mirumoto. Agasha.

On 11/16/2018 at 4:32 PM, Mangod said:

The same could be said for the Togashi one. The only one that doesn't look a bit silly is the Agasha one.


Togashi. Mirumoto. Agasha.

They should update to Mushu lol

Curiously, if it wasn't for the color pattern they would be very reminiscent of the Chinese Qing banner.

And even then there are some that are closer.

The thing is that colouring isn't that great.

On 11/7/2018 at 1:03 PM, SpookyElectric said:

Interestingly, that factoid comes from Imperial Archives , the last supplement of 4th Edition RPG. That specific piece of lore contradicts prior existing lore, and furthermore doesn't make sense in the light of other lore about Rokugan's swords. But that should come as no surprise, as there was so much lore by this point, it was hard to keep track! That, and early L5R lore tended to refer to all swords as "katana," unless they were wakizashi (my inner sword-nerd winced every time).

Finally found what I was thinking of: Imperial History, Dawn of the Empire era, p32:

"The first true human-forged katana was wielded by Kakita at the First Emerald Tournament and the design was quickly copied by other craftsmen; by the time of the First War, the katana and wakizashi were beginning to emerge as symbols of the new caste known as samurai."

Again, totally happy with the new direction the timeline has been going. I just thought I was going crazy for connecting Kakita and the katana, as I know I never read Imperial Archives.

Bah! This entire piece of fiction is just shameless scorpion fabrication of Daietsu propaganda.

Let's look at the facts from an objective point of view.

On one side we have the younger heir spending his days in debauchery by gambling and courting palace ladies (without mentioning the fact that he's distracting Shahai from her duties);

On the other side we find the Elder training assiduosly everyday to familiarize himself with the ancestral lion sword (a weapon befitting the still undefeated greatest duelist of Rokugan).

i think it's pretty obvious here who is the most deserving of the right of succession

5 hours ago, mirrorcat said:

Bah! This entire piece of fiction is just shameless scorpion fabrication of Daietsu propaganda.

Let's look at the facts from an objective point of view.

On one side we have the younger heir spending his days in debauchery by gambling and courting palace ladies (without mentioning the fact that he's distracting Shahai from her duties);

On the other side we find the Elder training assiduosly everyday to familiarize himself with the ancestral lion sword (a weapon befitting the still undefeated greatest duelist of Rokugan).

i think it's pretty obvious here who is the most deserving of the right of succession

The younger, because he will marry Shahai, and Unicorn will ride he empire XD!

On 12/18/2018 at 12:15 AM, mirrorcat said:

Bah! This entire piece of fiction is just shameless scorpion fabrication of Daietsu propaganda.

Brave words from a guy whose mon is a chicken on fire.

On 12/17/2018 at 6:15 PM, mirrorcat said:

On the other side we find the Elder training assiduosly everyday to familiarize himself with the ancestral lion sword (a weapon befitting the still undefeated greatest duelist of Rokugan).

I feel like I should mention its not the Lion sword he was playing with it was the Sword of the Hantei.

3 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Brave words from a guy whose mon is a chicken on fire.

Behold the majesty of the fire chicken!

No, but seriously, forgive @mirrorcat , he’s clearly a Shiba, and thus lacking the intelligence, wisdom, restrain, and modesty of us, the Isawa. Therefore, he might have been too hasty to take a side in this conflict.

We the Phoenix will support whoever let us play with maho the most fitted for the throne, willing to maintain the peace and our traditions, and will do so after long and profound deliberations between our most prominent and wise members, that is, the Masters of the Elemental Council.