Who here is hoping he’s in love with her?

58 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Who here is hoping he’s in love with her?

Im probably one of them with the main reason being is that FFG seems to be moving the new L5R stories to be more mature and no longer the simplistic good vs evil kids used to enjoy.

It is no longer like "Haha I am evil so I will use you woman!" but hoping rather due to circumstances and real emotions will the characters grow and their motivation shift and change as events unfold around them.

12 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Only the fact that such an implication would be crazy outside the bounds of protocol prevents Shahai from taking him seriously.

It wouldn't be, and not!Daigotsu even subtly explains Shahai why: arranging your own marriage is a legitimate thing it is just a beat off from normal Rokugani thinking.

4 hours ago, Manchu said:

Who here is hoping he’s in love with her?

He definitely is.

I think it's a better story if he is actually in love with her. Maybe I could be proven wrong, but even the villains gotta love someone. Giving them something pure to hold onto makes them a more interesting character even if their end goals are misguided.

7 hours ago, Yogo Rye X said:

Im probably one of them with the main reason being is that FFG seems to be moving the new L5R stories to be more mature and no longer the simplistic good vs evil kids used to enjoy.

I dunno but Sotorii ain't getting a lot of shading (one of my main complaints with the princes' plot btw).

1 hour ago, phillos said:

I think it's a better story if he is actually in love with her. Maybe I could be proven wrong, but even the villains gotta love someone. Giving them something pure to hold onto makes them a more interesting character even if their end goals are misguided.

Back in the old canon, the Daigotsu + Shahai power couple was one of the two exemplary Rokugani marriages, and it eventually greatly outdid the other one (Toturi + Kaede). Also, the current setup is that not!Daigotsu is the hero here and Shahai is the romantic interest every hero gets in their starting package.

I'm confused. You are comparing old canon to new canon though that's not what I was talking about. I was comparing the two possibilities for Daisetsu's character growth.

Also I don't agree that Daisetsu is a defacto hero here and Shahai is just his arm candy in this version of the story if that's what you are suggesting. We are still early days with this story, but already it feels like there is way more nuance than that given to us.

It is just an interesting trivia, not a direct comparison .

And yeah, I mean, unless we are up to a cop out like not!Daigotsu secretly conspiring with Fu Leng or something, he is with the Good Guys. Despite being this early in the story, the characterization is already on the rails and one can tell apart the heroes from the baddies quite easily in my opinion.

Well he doesn't like Sotorii and Sotorii is a huge jerk, but we don't know much about Daisetsu's philosophy on how to rule. We know Sotorii sucks so by default we like Daisetsu. Daisetsu himself it still a pretty open character when it comes to his morality. His first interaction with Shizue suggests Daisetsu is not a clear cut paragon of virtue. I don't think it's as black and white as you suggest, but we can agree to disagree on that. I doubt we'll argue each other out of their position since Daisetsu's character has only had a relatively small amount of screen time so far. We don't have a ton to analyze yet.

That said I'd love to get a book set in the capital about these characters. I always walk away from these stories wanting to know more.

11 minutes ago, phillos said:

I'm confused. You are comparing old canon to new canon though that's not what I was talking about. I was comparing the two possibilities for Daisetsu's character growth.

Also I don't agree that Daisetsu is a defacto hero here and Shahai is just his arm candy in this version of the story if that's what you are suggesting. We are still early days with this story, but already it feels like there is way more nuance than that given to us.

Really there is no "hero" here as both princes represent a fundamental threat to the stability of the Empire.

on the one had we have Satorii the eldest son who has never been challenged in his life and has grown into a spoiled ill prepared brat who has delusions of his own self worth and ability that are reinforced by everyone around him. The fear, rightly so, is that he is so ill prepared for the realities of being Emperor that he may break under the pressure and that could result in one of two things happening. He either goes the route of Hantei the 16th and becomes a monster who rules by fear and forms a brutal regime where those who speak against him are put down with merciless efficiency; or, overwhelmed by the responsibility that he is unprepared for becomes a pawn of his advisers and you potentially have another Gozuko situation. Now all that said there is also the possibility that he may rise to the challenge and with the bitter reality of being responsible for the Empire he may grow and become a fine Emperor.

Daisetsu on the other hand represents a very different threat as he seems to be fully aware of the flaws in the system and like many youth seems to believe he can fix them all. In a society as traditionalist as Rokugan that could be recipe for disaster as nothing brings out the resentment and fear in the established ruling class like wholesale change. We can already see from Shahai's interactions with him that he is willing to forego the expectations of a Prince and that he sees tenants Bushido a potential impediment to his rise. Its not a far leap for him to start considering alternate philosophies from here and Shourido being the end result is not outside of the realm of possibility.

I can't remember if not!Daigotsu ever even implied that he wants to change system, only that he is aware of its faults and does not shy away from taking an advantage of this. He is fine with playing the game but he wants to play it by his own rules - he even teases Shahai with this in The Heart of the Garden. Heck, Satorii is challenging tradition a lot more intensely than not!Daigotsu and his eccentricity.

Speaking of eccentricity, this trait seems to be a defining trait for the designated good guys or at least it is shared among a very particular group of characters.

2 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I can't remember if not!Daigotsu ever even implied that he wants to change system, only that he is aware of its faults and does not shy away from taking an advantage of this. He is fine with playing the game but he wants to play it by his own rules - he even teases Shahai with this in The Heart of the Garden. Heck, Satorii is challenging tradition a lot more intensely than not!Daigotsu and his eccentricity.

Speaking of eccentricity, this trait seems to be a defining trait for the designated good guys or at least it is shared among a very particular group of characters.

The idea that he is willing to step off the established path and forge his own path to find what he perceives as the true beauty of the garden as well as the contempt he holds for his brother are all foreshadowing for his intentions. Couple that with how quickly Shahai is willing to forego everything she is supposed to hold dear for him and you have the beginnings of a recipe for disaster.

I agree that this won't end too well, but I also think that not!Daigotsu is not the main contributor to that recipe tho the soup might end up in his face regardless.

45 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Really there is no "hero" here as both princes represent a fundamental threat to the stability of the Empire.

on the one had we have Satorii the eldest son who has never been challenged in his life and has grown into a spoiled ill prepared brat who has delusions of his own self worth and ability that are reinforced by everyone around him. The fear, rightly so, is that he is so ill prepared for the realities of being Emperor that he may break under the pressure and that could result in one of two things happening. He either goes the route of Hantei the 16th and becomes a monster who rules by fear and forms a brutal regime where those who speak against him are put down with merciless efficiency; or, overwhelmed by the responsibility that he is unprepared for becomes a pawn of his advisers and you potentially have another Gozuko situation. Now all that said there is also the possibility that he may rise to the challenge and with the bitter reality of being responsible for the Empire he may grow and become a fine Emperor.

Daisetsu on the other hand represents a very different threat as he seems to be fully aware of the flaws in the system and like many youth seems to believe he can fix them all. In a society as traditionalist as Rokugan that could be recipe for disaster as nothing brings out the resentment and fear in the established ruling class like wholesale change. We can already see from Shahai's interactions with him that he is willing to forego the expectations of a Prince and that he sees tenants Bushido a potential impediment to his rise. Its not a far leap for him to start considering alternate philosophies from here and Shourido being the end result is not outside of the realm of possibility.

I really do feel for Hantei XXXVIII - his eldest son and heir apparent is essentially a less tactful and -skilled Steel Chrysanthemum, and his younger son is both untrained in case he'd need to take the throne, and the Rokugani equivalent of a social radical.

So, either an vicious monster on the throne, or someone who'd play foreign games of chance with Unicorns and go drinking with Mantis pirates on the docks just to see how people would react.

On 11/6/2018 at 9:22 AM, Hida Jitenno said:

Well, Kakita invented the katana in Y19, in the Old5R. Taught by a Kenku named Grandmother.

Interestingly, that factoid comes from Imperial Archives , the last supplement of 4th Edition RPG. That specific piece of lore contradicts prior existing lore, and furthermore doesn't make sense in the light of other lore about Rokugan's swords. But that should come as no surprise, as there was so much lore by this point, it was hard to keep track! That, and early L5R lore tended to refer to all swords as "katana," unless they were wakizashi (my inner sword-nerd winced every time).

In the original lore, it was Kakita's son Yasarugi who was taught by Kenku to make swords. As time passed, that story got a little wibbly-wobbly, and someone it morphed into Kakita being Tengu-taught by late5r. I personally don't think that makes sense (and it wasn't adopted by the Story Team at the time), but hey!

If we accept that a sword must be made from Tamahagane steel in order to be a katana (maybe a big "if," but that's stated in L5R lore throughout the editions), then the katana was invented by the Agasha Family, since they invented that steel according to Way of the Dragon. Is that still true in the new lore? Well... who knows? It's clear from the 5th ed Core book that many styles of sword predated the katana, as well as in fictions. I'm personally assuming the Agasha are still the katana's inventors, but honestly that's just because it's what makes the most sense to me. I could be contradicted in a future FFG splatbook, but until then I'm going by 1st Edition lore as my "assumption." Crane is my favorite clan though, so I'd be cool with the katana being a Crane invention... but right now I'm assuming Kakita's sword was a "Jian."

That's just me though! I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just explaining my reasonings for thinking like I do. That, and I like discussing the lore.

On 11/6/2018 at 9:46 AM, Daigotsu Arashi said:

Ofushikai it’s described as a pre katana sword only “gently” curved , so…

It’s not a tachi, a longer a more curved sword than the katana.

Neither it’s a chokuto, a complete straight sword.

So, what’s Ofushikai? A less curved katana of a fantasy world.

I'm not going to argue the point (haha) here. Readers are welcome to draw whatever conclusions they'd like, that's your right as a reader.

But I will say that, as the one who wrote that fiction, and the writer of the Phoenix Novella further describing Ofushikai, I didn't intend for it to be a katana. I personally intended for it to be a tachi (which is why I describe it as hanging from the obi, which is a tachi distinction). But again, reader conclusions are their own to draw (pun definitely intended).

Also I'm glad readers liked this fiction! It was fun to write.

Shahai is my favorite goth princess right now.

18 minutes ago, SpookyElectric said:

Interestingly, that factoid comes from Imperial Archives , the last supplement of 4th Edition RPG. That specific piece of lore contradicts prior existing lore, and furthermore doesn't make sense in the light of other lore about Rokugan's swords. But that should come as no surprise, as there was so much lore by this point, it was hard to keep track! That, and early L5R lore tended to refer to all swords as "katana," unless they were wakizashi (my inner sword-nerd winced every time).

In the original lore, it was Kakita's son Yasarugi who was taught by Kenku to make swords. As time passed, that story got a little wibbly-wobbly, and someone it morphed into Kakita being Tengu-taught by late5r. I personally don't think that makes sense (and it wasn't adopted by the Story Team at the time), but hey!

Very interesting. I played very little of 4e and haven't read that book, but I swear I remember reading it around the time of Dawn of the Empire released for the old card game.

Either way, I'm always happy for cool changes. It's FFG's story now, and I'm enjoying it thoroughly, regardless of who hammered out the first katana.

*cough*ProbablyShouldHaveBeenKaiu*cough*

1 minute ago, Hida Jitenno said:

*cough*ProbablyShouldHaveBeenKaiu*cough*

Hahaha! Poor Kaiu never gets enough credit, does he? (I love the Kaiu, personally!)

18 minutes ago, SpookyElectric said:

Also I'm glad readers liked this fiction! It was fun to write.

Shahai is my favorite goth princess right now.

Ok, ok, you can write about other clans from time to time, but remember: you’re ours.

- Every Phoenix reader.

6 minutes ago, SpookyElectric said:

Hahaha! Poor Kaiu never gets enough credit, does he? (I love the Kaiu, personally!)

Any hints on what kind of sword Chikara is, then?

They need a sword cycle. Just tons of named swords in each pack. I also am curious what Chikara is in the new continuity.

Just now, phillos said:

They need a sword cycle. Just tons of named swords in each pack. I also am curious what Chikara is in the new continuity.

Sounds good. Except FFG would probably include attachment hate cards in each pack, too. all those swords and even less reason to use them, lol.

40 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

Any hints on what kind of sword Chikara is, then?

Judging by the art of the original Ancestral Sword of the Crab card , and the Chinese influences that the Crab Clan has, it looks to be a Dadao .

17 minutes ago, Mangod said:

Judging by the art of the original Ancestral Sword of the Crab card , and the Chinese influences that the Crab Clan has, it looks to be a Dadao .

I'm definitely okay with that. Looks good for choppin' up Oni.

I’ve always thought that the ancestral sword of the Crab was a Tetsubo.

17 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

We get inside HER head, but not Daisetsu's. So we don't actually have any evidence of whether he's sincere or not. Just your assumptions.

Except that every clue he drops her leads her inexorably in a certain direction. And she follows like she's tethered.