Precisely what I said. I didn't remove any insults.

If anything I changed it FROM a direct admonishment "Don't X if you Y" to something much snarkier and backhandedly insulting by asking " Are you sure you weren't looking for the Runewars board game forum?" Maybe my tone didn't come across that way. I'd hate to think you thought I was serious.

Though, I'll concede that you weren't wholesale inventing the notion, just misreading, and I apologize for the accusation.

15 minutes ago, Zaid_kw said:

Again I am not trying to insult anyone. I am not trolling. I am not **** posting. It is ok to have differing opinions and it doesnt have to get snarky. If I came across that way I was wrong and I apologize for that. I also dont think im just being a moron here. I appreciate that you responded and that you also took the time to share your opinion and went in depth with it. Everyone on the thread did that even if they added a bit of condescension to it as well. Maybe the snark was an unintended modifier on their dial that was overlooked in design.

Hey, man, apology accepted.

I understand your position, and I understand your passion. I've been caught in that trap plenty myself. You get frustrated by a mechanic that one of your regular opponents is particularly good at exploiting and no matter what you seem to try, the frustration keeps coming until it feels like something MUST be broken.

I think, if you dig into my post history, you'll find me saying similar things at various points.

Just be open to what people suggest, and be ready to submit a LOT more data and testing before claiming that some ability combination is so broken it must have been missed in testing.

In turn, I apologize for my own snark. I was probably more miffed by that remark than the actual target of it was. It's never a good direction to take, regardless. It's like Jack Burton always says: sooner or later, I rub everyone the wrong way.

On topic:

At this point, there are a lot of suggestions that have been made for dealing with the Leonx shift. I'd add to the list: Try playing to the objective. A Leonx unit that is disengaging every other turn probably isn't doing a great job of keeping you off objective tokens, and those can be worth a LOT of points.

Take these tips and apply them, and I'd be interested to see if your opinion changes once rubber hits pavement with a fresh outlook.

10 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Precisely what I said. I didn't remove any insults.

If anything, the change to: " Are you sure you weren't looking for the Runewars board game forum?" is MORE snarky than what I originally wrote. Maybe my tone didn't come across that way. I'd hate to think you thought I was serious.

Hey, man, apology accepted.

I understand your position, and I understand your passion. I've been caught in that trap plenty myself. You get frustrated by a mechanic that one of your regular opponents is particularly good at exploiting and no matter what you seem to try, the frustration keeps coming until it feels like something MUST be broken.

I think, if you dig into my post history, you'll find me saying similar things at various points.

Just be open to what people suggest, and be ready to submit a LOT more data and testing before claiming that some ability combination is so broken it must have been missed in testing.

In turn, I apologize for my own snark. I was probably more miffed by that remark than the actual target of it was. It's never a good direction to take, regardless. It's like Jack Burton always says: sooner or later, I rub everyone the wrong way.

On topic:

At this point, there are a lot of suggestions that have been made for dealing with the Leonx shift. I'd add to the list: Try playing to the objective. A Leonx unit that is disengaging every other turn probably isn't doing a great job of keeping you off objective tokens, and those can be worth a LOT of points.

Take these tips and apply them, and I'd be interested to see if your opinion changes once rubber hits pavement with a fresh outlook.

Im going to be using a lot of them and I also suggested to some of the elf players to try using raven tabards so that they can disengage with impunity unless they are dealing with lord hawthorne. The truth is that the Leonix spam strategy hasnt simply won every game either in our meta. Daqan wins most of the time here especially since Waiqar is a very hard faction to play well with.

I didnt think you were serious or that hurtful. I was much more worried that I angered anyone or insulted them. Also rune wars the board game is great too. very excited for the Role playing game to truly deepen the lore for Runebound universe.

... I just typed out a really well thought out post... and then looked at Tvayumat's reply before I posted just to have everything deleted. I guess I'll type it shorter:

1. OP, yes the situation you mentioned sucks.

2. There are many times in games where you can look at your opponent's dial and your own and dial in the "perfect charge" that is avoided by their melee attack and happens prior to their own charges so you get a free attack. 50/50 will always be better than 0%

3. If your opponent is timing everything perfect, that means they are getting only 4 attacks per game. If you play undying you'll thank them for giving you 2 turns to regenerate. With Ankaur Maro, you'd wipe the floor against those tactics.

4. I would recommend trying undead with archers behind carrion lancers. If you keep the Lancers and archers close, if they keep charging in and shifting back, they'll stay in range and you'll get to attack with your archers. Plop combat ingenuity on them and you can blight away their dice and possibly hit with mortal strikes with the lancer. Likely they won't risk a charge with 2-3 blight on their unit, so if you can pull that off a few times, you'll really reduce their options and you might get them on the run rather than this dance... but again, that's if you play undead.

Finally, remember that you have mentioned that these are 50/50 odds for you... but they are also 50/50 odds for your opponent. That sounds pretty fair to me. If they shift away, and you anticipate it, that means they sacrificed their guaranteed melee attack and you got a freebie. It sounds like they are leaning more towards shifting away to avoid being attacked so likely your odds are closer to 60/40 in your favor (maybe more). On turns where they don't have initiative (so likely they will pull back to charge when they do have initiative) they will probably shift away.

I know it does sound broken right now, and this is a strong tactic for the Leonix, but I think the 50/50 odds, and the fact that they sacrifice an attack every time they pull this move, sounds balanced to me.

5 minutes ago, Zaid_kw said:

I didnt think you were serious or that hurtful. I was much more worried that I angered anyone or insulted them. Also rune wars the board game is great too. very excited for the Role playing game to truly deepen the lore for Runebound universe.

It really is a great board game.

I don't know if you've played Battlelore, but it is similarly excellent.

And nah, man. We all love Runewars here. The worst is gets is someone like me flaring their ego for a few minutes.

7 minutes ago, Zaid_kw said:

Im going to be using a lot of them and I also suggested to some of the elf players to try using raven tabards so that they can disengage with impunity unless they are dealing with lord hawthorne. The truth is that the Leonix spam strategy hasnt simply won every game either in our meta. Daqan wins most of the time here especially since Waiqar is a very hard faction to play well with.

Daqan is, IMO, the easiest faction to play in general at the moment. Their strongest combos are blaringly obvious and their overall strategy seems to be "Front Toward Enemy".

I look forward to the Uthuk bringing some raw aggression to make them a little less comfortable in their deployment zones.

Regarding Leonx riders + raven tabards, they are indeed the very definition of wily. At the moment there are unfortunately few methods to reliably deliver Immobilize tokens, though these seem like the most direct counter. Stun tokens also do a good job of eliminating the bonus action shift.

Oh wow... maybe the Leonx will actually make the Support Rune Golem worth taking? Take Aggressive Cornicen and dial in a March+Skill on the turn the Leonx are either going to charge or you can charge them. Move in, stun them, then keep dialling in Attack/Skill until they're pounded into the dirt.

2 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

... I just typed out a really well thought out post... and then looked at Tvayumat's reply before I posted just to have everything deleted. I guess I'll type it shorter:

1. OP, yes the situation you mentioned sucks.

2. There are many times in games where you can look at your opponent's dial and your own and dial in the "perfect charge" that is avoided by their melee attack and happens prior to their own charges so you get a free attack. 50/50 will always be better than 0%

3. If your opponent is timing everything perfect, that means they are getting only 4 attacks per game. If you play undying you'll thank them for giving you 2 turns to regenerate. With Ankaur Maro, you'd wipe the floor against those tactics.

4. I would recommend trying undead with archers behind carrion lancers. If you keep the Lancers and archers close, if they keep charging in and shifting back, they'll stay in range and you'll get to attack with your archers. Plop combat ingenuity on them and you can blight away their dice and possibly hit with mortal strikes with the lancer. Likely they won't risk a charge with 2-3 blight on their unit, so if you can pull that off a few times, you'll really reduce their options and you might get them on the run rather than this dance... but again, that's if you play undead.

Finally, remember that you have mentioned that these are 50/50 odds for you... but they are also 50/50 odds for your opponent. That sounds pretty fair to me. If they shift away, and you anticipate it, that means they sacrificed their guaranteed melee attack and you got a freebie. It sounds like they are leaning more towards shifting away to avoid being attacked so likely your odds are closer to 60/40 in your favor (maybe more). On turns where they don't have initiative (so likely they will pull back to charge when they do have initiative) they will probably shift away.

I know it does sound broken right now, and this is a strong tactic for the Leonix, but I think the 50/50 odds, and the fact that they sacrifice an attack every time they pull this move, sounds balanced to me.

Its a shame you deleted the well thought out post. This post itself is good. On point number 4 I like having single carrion lancer blight towers with archers near them. They have strong synergy with each other on top of the protection it gives the archers.

The first time I was hit with the leonix shift It was the most surprising obviously because I had overlooked the fact that the march and modifier were both blue and I opened up the rule book to see that this move was legal to do. It was much more devastating because he had pinned me in range of archer units he had. So he disengaged on a three and then I swung at nothing and received two squads worth of archer fire for the turn. Needless to say that never happened again. Wont ever engage the Leonix with so much support near it without my own. I had an opportunity to jump on that leonix squad and i took it and it turned out to be a trap that I didnt see coming in that particular game.

Followup thought:

Have you tried a Deathcaller/Support Carrion Lancer/Simultaneous Orders build?

With Ardus you can run two units of this, and regardless of what the Leonx are doing (especially if they are disengaging) you can knock off 1-2 full trays per turn this way.

2 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Followup thought:

Have you tried a Deathcaller/Support Carrion Lancer/Simultaneous Orders build?

With Ardus you can run two units of this, and regardless of what the Leonx are doing (especially if they are disengaging) you can knock off 1-2 full trays per turn this way.

I played my first game with Mistland Saboteur last game and it wrecked! When I first got the expansion I didn't see it's value, until I started seeing these huge units of 6-12 trays with 1 or 2 upgrades like moment of inspiration, master-crafted weapons, and tempered steel. You go up against a 6x2 of carrion lancers and take away master crafted weapons on the first strike, and holy crap. Game changer when the surges don't do anything because they can't blight the unit they are engaged with.

Against Leonix riders, I would see it working the same way, but yeah, I really like throwing ankaur maro in one tray of reanimates, and deathcaller in the unit that you keep reinforcing so they HAVE to engage it or just get range strike attacked all game.

4 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

It really is a great board game.

I don't know if you've played Battlelore, but it is similarly excellent.

And nah, man. We all love Runewars here. The worst is gets is someone like me flaring their ego for a few minutes.

Daqan is, IMO, the easiest faction to play in general at the moment. Their strongest combos are blaringly obvious and their overall strategy seems to be "Front Toward Enemy".

I look forward to the Uthuk bringing some raw aggression to make them a little less comfortable in their deployment zones.

Regarding Leonx riders + raven tabards, they are indeed the very definition of wily. At the moment there are unfortunately few methods to reliably deliver Immobilize tokens, though these seem like the most direct counter. Stun tokens also do a good job of eliminating the bonus action shift.

Oh wow... maybe the Leonx will actually make the Support Rune Golem worth taking? Take Aggressive Cornicen and dial in a March+Skill on the turn the Leonx are either going to charge or you can charge them. Move in, stun them, then keep dialling in Attack/Skill until they're pounded into the dirt.

The leonix rider disengage was the only thing that ever made me use a support golem. until i saw them I would never choose it over the brutal one. But i have a problem justifying using it for just one match up. Especially when not all the elves here run leonix spam and leonix spam players lose some of their games anyway and might die off to just using them like every other cavalry that factions have.

6 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Followup thought:

Have you tried a Deathcaller/Support Carrion Lancer/Simultaneous Orders build?

With Ardus you can run two units of this, and regardless of what the Leonx are doing (especially if they are disengaging) you can knock off 1-2 full trays per turn this way.

This is an amazing build that works for many match ups. I like this as much as the File leader solution.

2 hours ago, Willange said:

I haven't found any problem with the disengaging Leonx so far in playing as them or against them. The shifting Archers and Scions have been a lot more challenging to deal with than the Leonx for me personally. The main penalty for disengaging is not, in my opinion, the 1 panic token. The main penalty is that your turn is spent disengaging. Even if you disengage before an attack, you're still just stalling (which is sometimes valuable I'll grant you), but on leonx that doesn't seem to be a big deal yet. In fact, I've always wished that disengage was generally a more useful option in more situations.

One of the most enjoyable feelings ive had in the game is playing elven archers with a wind rune on them and having them shoot, shift and turn like a matador out of the way of melee units.

1 minute ago, Zaid_kw said:

This is an amazing build that works for many match ups. I like this as much as the File leader solution.

Just from my experience, something to consider with File leader, that I have encountered, is that when a unit has file leader, I have seen more enemy units decide to simply run into it, without charge, just to avoid the pre-emptive attack, or choose to charge when they have the initiative advantage so it doesn't take effect. Once my unit with File Leader gets engaged, the unit attacking doesn't disengage.

So far, playing as undead, I have run File leader for two different tournaments, about 2-3 rounds each tournament, and it hasn't gone off once. Now, that's just my experience, and my play group tends to run bigger more tray units, rather than lots of smaller units.

2 minutes ago, backupsidekick said:

Just from my experience, something to consider with File leader, that I have encountered, is that when a unit has file leader, I have seen more enemy units decide to simply run into it, without charge, just to avoid the pre-emptive attack, or choose to charge when they have the initiative advantage so it doesn't take effect. Once my unit with File Leader gets engaged, the unit attacking doesn't disengage.

So far, playing as undead, I have run File leader for two different tournaments, about 2-3 rounds each tournament, and it hasn't gone off once. Now, that's just my experience, and my play group tends to run bigger more tray units, rather than lots of smaller units.

True. Im thinking of putting it on spearmen specifically to reveal a 3 attack as a way to stop the cycle of two small leonix holding down a larger unit of spearmen with cycles of charging since if you reveal this i will get multiple hits off in one round. just marching into my unit is a good counter they could do but then I could switch my dial that round to a 7 speed attack and probably kill off one of the leonix riders. Just as a thought.

I'm just a snarky bastard...my snark is always there whether I mean to or not! but I also regularly admit when I'm wrong and things like that...I agree that if you see an opponent deciding leonyx disenage is there thing to do then just play to it...focus on objective and when you know they are going to charge in there then just boop them hard real fast right after there charge, dial in late attack, with modifier and just murder some kittens...then bury them in your back yard...wait not every does that? am I channeling @Elrad now? random tangents...yeah just hit them the same turn they charge...its good to read your opponents and make them regret their jankiness...

9 minutes ago, jek said:

I'm just a snarky bastard...my snark is always there whether I mean to or not! but I also regularly admit when I'm wrong and things like that...I agree that if you see an opponent deciding leonyx disenage is there thing to do then just play to it...focus on objective and when you know they are going to charge in there then just boop them hard real fast right after there charge, dial in late attack, with modifier and just murder some kittens...then bury them in your back yard...wait not every does that? am I channeling @Elrad now? random tangents...yeah just hit them the same turn they charge...its good to read your opponents and make them regret their jankiness...

I agree with you on reading their charge and meeting them with a heavy melee. But sometimes their impact comes into play that can destroy your plans. Thats what I love about cavalry in this game. They shred archers, flank very effectively and they cause devastating morale effects. Which is why if you caught them they shouldnt be able to escape before at least one spanking is given. Spank or get spanked with those cats.

Sorry if this has been asked already (this is a long thread). When the cats do the int 3 march it isn't performed because the unit is enguaged already, doesn't that also cancel the shift because modifiers are canceled when the action is canceled?

I tried the leonx lightening shift today. Flank charged a 2x2 of spears with a 2x2 cats, took the back rank off. I was then threatened by a formation of rune golems on my flank and shifted sideways while still engaged by the spears to avoid a golem charge. I managed to shift to safety the next turn but missed a charge by a mm and got charged. The spears killed the cats. Still won the match but not that battle.

4 hours ago, Qark said:

Sorry if this has been asked already (this is a long thread). When the cats do the int 3 march it isn't performed because the unit is enguaged already, doesn't that also cancel the shift because modifiers are canceled when the action is canceled?

Modifiers are not cancelled when an action is cancelled.

RR-15.2 "A modifier is not canceled when the action is canceled. However, movement modifiers and the enhance modifiers have no effect if their corresponding action is not performed."

3 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

Modifiers are not cancelled when an action is cancelled.

RR-15.2 "A modifier is not canceled when the action is canceled. However, movement modifiers and the enhance modifiers have no effect if their corresponding action is not performed."

And movement modifiers are turns, wheels, and charges, not bonus actions that have the same stance as the March.

2 hours ago, rowdyoctopus said:

And movement modifiers are turns, wheels, and charges, not bonus actions that have the same stance as the March.

RR 14 Bonus actions

A bonus action is a modifier that appears in some modifier wheels.

Bonus actions use the same icons as actions.

RR 14.2

A unit can preform its bonus action even if its first action was canceled.

6 hours ago, rowdyoctopus said:

And movement modifiers are turns, wheels, and charges, not bonus actions that have the same stance as the March.

As Giraffe noted, anything on the modifier dial is a modifier.

Movement modifier is a subcategory, as is bonus action.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

As Giraffe noted, anything on the modifier dial is a modifier.

Movement modifier is a subcategory, as is bonus action.

I wasn't arguing with you, I was clarifying what a movement modifier was, since it isn't listed in the rules reference.

I just want to say that for the first page, this thread made me cringe, but it ended up being one of the best discussions about tactics. I'm enjoying it. You guys are proof that there is hope for the Internet after all!

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

I just want to say that for the first page, this thread made me cringe, but it ended up being one of the best discussions about tactics. I'm enjoying it. You guys are proof that there is hope for the Internet after all!

Parakitor smells like baby poop.

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

there is hope for the Internet after all!

3 minutes ago, Curlycross said:

Parakitor smells like baby poop.

...I take it back. I take it ALL back.

Hi,

sneaky Elves disengage?

Take a Golem and "stun" them.

Greetings

H

Also, dumb question, but would File Leader as an upgrade soft counter this? Just keep dialing in attacks. If they charge early, you take a hit and hit back. If they charge late, you hit them before their charge gets to attack.