14 minutes ago, Darthain said:

Gotcha, you are clearly right despite all suggestion and lack of support, and everyone else is wrong., it is so clear now that you properly supported and provided the requested information. The elves are the most mobile army, faulting them for being mobile is a bit silly. Again, plan accordingly. If you know they are shifting, you charge them and reestablish contact. If you can't do that, you probably engaged very poorly.

This is not about winning and losing. I'm not bringing this up for any other reason than I think it's an error and the 50/50 generated here is unlike all the other ones present in the game because those are universal and easy to read. If you think the Leonix is going to shift and instead they attack they get a free attack on you as you do nothing. With other examples of the guessing game you can either both whiff, one charge and one melee attacks, or both charge and the quicker unit wins. In this one you either whiff and they disengage, you charge and catch them or you charge and they swing at you for free or you melee them and they melee you. There are more variables here in the Leonix players favor and it's not readable its a complete guess unlike other situations where you can use experience and cunning to choose the right move based on information available.

22 minutes ago, Jukey said:

I'm not convinced it's an oversight or a mistake. I think one of the designers might have a cat for a pet though.

when cats hunt, they pounce on their prey and then jump back and watch it for a moment.

gameplaywise, if a leonx stays engaged with most units they die a quick death. So it seems the game designers gave them a little feline flavor.

Game play wise if any cavalry unit stays engaged with a large melee unit they die a quick death. Cavalry are for punching attacks, flanking and morale shocks etc.. Again they don't have this as a regular action. It can only be attained in a roundabout way that probably wasn't forseen. Look at the dials and see how uniform the initiative speeds are. Very meticulously mapped out for each and every action. This initiative speed is half what the unit normally does. Even at a speed of 4 this would be much less problematic for the melee units that are supposed to beat this unit in engagements. Catching cavalry on your own terms is pretty hard to do. The fact that these guys can cheat a disengage faster than melee attacks is just wrong.

First off. Lance corporal on Scouts can disengage at 3. Even attack at 4 and disengage.

Crossbows coming this week.

Lastly. How do you build your spearstar? Have you tried File leader?

8 minutes ago, Zaid_kw said:

This is not about winning and losing. I'm not bringing this up for any other reason than I think it's an error and the 50/50 generated here is unlike all the other ones present in the game because those are universal and easy to read. If you think the Leonix is going to shift and instead they attack they get a free attack on you as you do nothing. With other examples of the guessing game you can either both whiff, one charge and one melee attacks, or both charge and the quicker unit wins. In this one you either whiff and they disengage, you charge and catch them or you charge and they swing at you for free or you melee them and they melee you. There are more variables here in the Leonix players favor and it's not readable its a complete guess unlike other situations where you can use experience and cunning to choose the right move based on information available.

I wouldn't say it is roundabout, it is a simple interaction. Bonus actions happens even if the first action is canceled per the RRG,. It is 1 variable, not 'many'. Leonx aren't exactly brute slams, it makes complete sense they would seek to maximize survivability. It isn't 50/50, if your opponent stats engaged with a 9 block star and attacks, they are probably not doing too well. You need to read the board, the support, and not get read yourself.

4 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

First off. Lance corporal on Scouts can disengage at 3. Even attack at 4 and disengage.

Crossbows coming this week.

Lastly. How do you build your spearstar? Have you tried File leader?

You are right they can do the same thing with a Lance corporal.

I don't always build stars in every game I play. Buy file leader is a great card because they can only remove it with morale effects they cannot aim the figure away. Good points.

1 minute ago, Zaid_kw said:

You are right they can do the same thing with a Lance corporal.

I don't always build stars in every game I play. Buy file leader is a great card because they can only remove it with morale effects they cannot aim the figure away. Good points.

File leader forces them to hit you when they have initiative as if you have it then you do an attack and wallop anything that charges you. And it works for multiple charges along with attacking first.

4 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

File leader forces them to hit you when they have initiative as if you have it then you do an attack and wallop anything that charges you. And it works for multiple charges along with attacking first.

Yes as long as you have it revealed first. So you swing on a 3 if they are there. If they are not and charge you you swing. This also pulls you out of being pin chained by two of them. So many good upgrades. Not enough slots.

2 hours ago, Zaid_kw said:

Game play wise if any cavalry unit stays engaged with a large melee unit they die a quick death.

Yeah, the Oathsworn Cavalry with their ability to attack at Init 3 with three dice and boost their defense to 3 are notoriously squishy.

Are you sure you weren't looking for the Runewars board game forum?

Quote

Again they don't have this as a regular action. It can only be attained in a roundabout way that probably wasn't forseen.

I find it fairly stunning that you honestly believe they released the first cavalry unit for the first new faction after the core set and just didn't test their dial.

You know what they have as a regular action? Two shifts in a row at Init 6. It's crafty. It's also not the same as a march and then a shift.

They're the same stance, they obviously tested them, and I find your tendency to accuse experienced players and forum contributors of simply being too inexperienced to see how valid your overreaction is to be distasteful.

There are several methods to deal with the Leonx dial, but when people suggest them, you seem far more interested in disparaging them than in any real discussion of how the mechanic works or how you could respond to it.

You also continue to repeat the "50/50" line as if it made any sense at all. If you're feeling so uncertain about your chances, shore them up! Engage the unit on two flanks, utilize a combination of the Raven Standard and File Leader...

Do anything! Get creative!

Or don't. Do whatever.

Please, though, don't insult the people trying to help you.

6 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

Yeah, the Oathsworn Cavalry with their ability to attack at Init 3 with three dice and boost their defense to 3 are notoriously squishy.

Are you sure you weren't looking for the Runewars board game forum?

I find it fairly stunning that you honestly believe they released the first cavalry unit for the first new faction after the core set and just didn't test their dial.

You know what they have as a regular action? Two shifts in a row at Init 6. It's crafty. It's also not the same as a march and then a shift.

They're the same stance, they obviously tested them, and I find your tendency to accuse experienced players and forum contributors of simply being too inexperienced to see how valid your overreaction is to be distasteful.

There are several methods to deal with the Leonx dial, but when people suggest them, you seem far more interested in disparaging them than in any real discussion of how the mechanic works or how you could respond to it.

You also continue to repeat the "50/50" line as if it made any sense at all. If you're feeling so uncertain about your chances, shore them up! Engage the unit on two flanks, utilize a combination of the Raven Standard and File Leader...

Do anything! Get creative!

Or don't. Do whatever.

Please, though, don't insult the people trying to help you.

I haven't insulted anyone. In fact you insulted me in an earlier version of this post then edited it. In general I have been told that I don't understand things and I responded explaining what I feel is not understood from my end that makes me believe that the ability to disengage at speed three isn't punished enough for people doing it. Several suggestions have been made including my own by people asking me for what I believe I should do to counter it. Many of these suggestions were great and I plan on using them. I haven't been insulting anyone again. I'm responding saying I've played a bunch of games and they have also played games I'm sure but this doesn't mean we reach the same conclusion. It also doesn't mean that if we both don't immediately agree with each other there is some sort of insult or hard feelings.

In regards to the dials I've played ffg games for years and years and they make the best designed games in table top with the best rule sets. They also have really small design teams and I've been a playtester for games like x wing and I've seen first hand how honest errors can be made and how things can be emergency fixed even before a rule, miniature or card for an lcg is even released. It's not beyond the realm of possibility. Either way it's just my belief that in accordance with the rest of the entire game disengage on speed three is probably not intentional.

Third oathsworn cavalry engaged with a dedicated melee unit even with its defense will lose. The cavalry units of all armies are excellent at charging to break a unit, wiping out soft targets like archers or small infantry units and especially for flanking.

Please don't take anything I said as some sort of Attack or insult. That's not what I am trying to do. Just consider me stupid or something if you disagree that much.

So far I'm most excited to counter this with file leader because it's the most secure option to use and it's relevant in matches that don't include units with Leonix Rider spams. But I think file leader is only really great when you put it onto a maxed out spear blob which I don't always play.

Fun fact: Raven taberds makes the shift go off at initiative 2. I'll be trying this tomorrow.

I think after one or two times my opponent will start dialing a charge and I'll be left with a 50/50 should I stay or go scenario.

3 minutes ago, Jukey said:

Fun fact: Raven taberds makes the shift go off at initiative 2. I'll be trying this tomorrow.

I think after one or two times my opponent will start dialing a charge and I'll be left with a 50/50 should I stay or go scenario.

Yes it gets worse! And most of the attacks on 3 are yellow so they can't even match you on initiative anymore. Lmao.

5 minutes ago, Zaid_kw said:

Yes it gets worse! And most of the attacks on 3 are yellow so they can't even match you on initiative anymore. Lmao.

To be fair though, a charge is the simplest, most effective counter to the lightening shift. The odds apply to both sides equally and any latari player who thinks you havnt been duped by the combo before is likely to try on the first engagement turn.

Its possible you'll guess wrong, miss a turn and get attacked, but if your not wrong then it's goodbye leonx.

Um ok...so a bunch of spear cats in a faction whose fluff is all about quick hit and run attacks that avoid getting bogged down in combat because they are squishy, can make quick hit and run attacks that avoid getting bogged down in combat is broken? H'ok bro lets see, I charge you with leonyx and do an unmodified attack, then at init 2 or 3 I back up...straight back, no turn nothing I just walk backwards...thats all then I stop..pounce forward, pounce back...and hope you didn't just dial in a charge at a higher initiative to murder my cats...hmmm I am failing to see how this is broken...I get one attack in one turn...if I'm flanking you that is a different story but I mean Flanks are mean and they should be punishing, and disengaging your flank should be way easier than just backing up...I feel like you are flipping the table over a core mechanic to a faction that isn't actually broken...however now I will be running raven banners on my cats in the future so I never get hit back from flank attacks! hoorah!

Another counter to this is to engage the flank of the leonx with a secondary unit. They can't disengage from two units (on different edges) and with two units attacking them they'll fade quickly.

Stun is the alternative option as well, but outside of playing elves there isn't much reliable sources for that.

7 minutes ago, Xquer said:

Stun is the alternative option as well, but outside of playing elves there isn't much reliable sources for that.

Please explain how Stun helps. Immobilize, I understand, but Stun only affects modifiers. Is this the case of "a bonus action on a modifier dial is still considered a modifier?" (Wait, it's coming back to me...I was thinking enhance, which is the other kind of modifier. So yeah, anything on that second dial is a target for stun because it's a modifier, even bonus actions. Cool.)

there are a lot of cancels to the Leonyx riders, you could run a support golem...gasp you wouldn't get the added threat?!...that way you always can drop a stun on the cats...you can, as @Xquer mentioned engage them a 2nd time by just keeping a unit of something back for counter charge. On thursday the xbows are out so you can plink away at the cats with those to hurt them...you could run captivating hexer...it is almost like they thought there might be units that utilize disengaging as a tactic in the pipeline when they thought up that bugger...but how could they have known that clearly they don't foresee tactics in playtesting... all this boils down to is that against certain lists there are strong units...as @Tvayumat mentioned earlier...welcome to what Waiqar players dealt with for 4-6 months...Daqan still has the great damage potential...so if you think you are going to be charged...dial in a late attack, ad a hit modifier and go to town...a 3x3 spearman with golem will take out a tray of leonyx with just that modifier...roll two hits? well that would kill a 3x1 unit of leonyx before they get to pounce away...yeah Daqan are really hurting in this situation...

8 hours ago, Zaid_kw said:

Yes it gets worse! And most of the attacks on 3 are yellow so they can't even match you on initiative anymore. Lmao.

7 hours ago, jek said:

Um ok...so a bunch of spear cats in a faction whose fluff is all about quick hit and run attacks that avoid getting bogged down in combat because they are squishy, can make quick hit and run attacks that avoid getting bogged down in combat is broken? H'ok bro lets see, I charge you with leonyx and do an unmodified attack, then at init 2 or 3 I back up...straight back, no turn nothing I just walk backwards...thats all then I stop..pounce forward, pounce back...and hope you didn't just dial in a charge at a higher initiative to murder my cats...hmmm I am failing to see how this is broken...I get one attack in one turn...if I'm flanking you that is a different story but I mean Flanks are mean and they should be punishing, and disengaging your flank should be way easier than just backing up...I feel like you are flipping the table over a core mechanic to a faction that isn't actually broken...however now I will be running raven banners on my cats in the future so I never get hit back from flank attacks! hoorah!

I guess ill repeat what I've said several times. The speed at which you disengage is outside the normal speed which is specifically listed on every single dial in the entire game including future unreleased units. You dont start magically engaged with Leonix riders either. Things had to happen during game play for you to become engaged with that unit and be able to melee attack it.

6 hours ago, jek said:

there are a lot of cancels to the Leonyx riders, you could run a support golem...gasp you wouldn't get the added threat?!...that way you always can drop a stun on the cats...you can, as @Xquer mentioned engage them a 2nd time by just keeping a unit of something back for counter charge. On thursday the xbows are out so you can plink away at the cats with those to hurt them...you could run captivating hexer...it is almost like they thought there might be units that utilize disengaging as a tactic in the pipeline when they thought up that bugger...but how could they have known that clearly they don't foresee tactics in playtesting... all this boils down to is that against certain lists there are strong units...as @Tvayumat mentioned earlier...welcome to what Waiqar players dealt with for 4-6 months...Daqan still has the great damage potential...so if you think you are going to be charged...dial in a late attack, ad a hit modifier and go to town...a 3x3 spearman with golem will take out a tray of leonyx with just that modifier...roll two hits? well that would kill a 3x1 unit of leonyx before they get to pounce away...yeah Daqan are really hurting in this situation...

Ive mentioned earlier that stunning and support golems will shut down their modifier but I found that Cavalry are very effictive at triggering strong morale effects that can remove your upgrades if they dont aim damage your rune golem away.

On another note I dont see how it matters what Daqan or Waiqar have for this. This is an issue for all the factions because it effects them all equally including Latari. All of them hit before normal disengaging. Also it was pointed out earlier that the upcoming Scouts for Daqan can take an upgrade that will allow them to do a similar disengage at preattack speeds in the same way where you take a march action fail it and shift with your modifier. The issue isnt that elves are OP at all. The issue is that this disengage speed is out of line with the game mechanics as presented on all the dials of all units in the game currently and that will be released in future as far as have been spoiled.

I dont know why there is a condescending tone that needs to go along with all the responses. Im continuing to have this discussion and everyone is having excellent points and feedback but the sarcasm and accusations of insults from and earlier poster are just weird. I dont see why they are needed to have this discussion.

14 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

I like this but I find the file leader is a more safe solution. Someone else brought up file leader upgrade earlier and thats the most viable one in my mind currently because it doesnt have a figure upgrade needed. That is important because the leonix riders are very good at being able to remove those before you can take advantage of this ability and punish them while engaged. Almost all the upgrades in the game so far are excellent. You get that excellent dilemma of so many options and not enough points/slots to use.

I don't understand why this mechanic which I can assure you has been thoroughly tested internally and externally is so egregious to you...dial in an attack when you know you are going to be charged... If you think that based on core game initiatives you knew exactly what every future unit would activate based on you are always going to be sorely mistaken, scouts and leonyx can disengage fast, it is part of their core mechanics...that is how they function...you have through your post insinuated that the company making the game didn't know what they were doing because of this mechanic I would argue that this is EXACTLY how a fast and light unit should function...

After seeing the uthok dials, they won't have any trouble. Over half of them can walk forward after an action with a universal march. And the last thing I want on my cats when dealing with uthok is more panic.

15 minutes ago, jek said:

I don't understand why this mechanic which I can assure you has been thoroughly tested internally and externally is so egregious to you...dial in an attack when you know you are going to be charged... If you think that based on core game initiatives you knew exactly what every future unit would activate based on you are always going to be sorely mistaken, scouts and leonyx can disengage fast, it is part of their core mechanics...that is how they function...you have through your post insinuated that the company making the game didn't know what they were doing because of this mechanic I would argue that this is EXACTLY how a fast and light unit should function...

OK. And I think its out of line. Its as simple as that.

18 minutes ago, Jukey said:

After seeing the uthok dials, they won't have any trouble. Over half of them can walk forward after an action with a universal march. And the last thing I want on my cats when dealing with uthok is more panic.

Yes. But they will also receive a panic when they collide with you each time they move again to square up.

I haven't found any problem with the disengaging Leonx so far in playing as them or against them. The shifting Archers and Scions have been a lot more challenging to deal with than the Leonx for me personally. The main penalty for disengaging is not, in my opinion, the 1 panic token. The main penalty is that your turn is spent disengaging. Even if you disengage before an attack, you're still just stalling (which is sometimes valuable I'll grant you), but on leonx that doesn't seem to be a big deal yet. In fact, I've always wished that disengage was generally a more useful option in more situations.

12 hours ago, Zaid_kw said:

I haven't insulted anyone.

Huh... did I misread?

22 hours ago, Zaid_kw said:

I think you just havent been playing the game with competent players if you dont see the imbalance here. Ill let you learn about it on your own.

Nope.

That was a remarkably rude and dismissive way to address someone trying to help you, not to mention the number of times you have responded to attempts to explain or rationalize the ability by simply saying "No" and stating that you are correct repeatedly.

12 hours ago, Zaid_kw said:

In fact you insulted me in an earlier version of this post then edited it.

Come on, man. That's just low-brow troll behavior. My singular post edit was to add the entire second half, the first version of the post existed for a maximum of five minutes, 18 hours ago, and the closest thing I wrote to an insult is still there.

Let's not tell fibs. It's unbecoming.

1 hour ago, Zaid_kw said:

OK. And I think its out of line. Its as simple as that.

Indeed.

You have decided, and stated your disinterest in any explanation or argument to the contrary, so... we're done here, yeah?

8 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Huh... did I misread?

Nope.

That was a remarkably rude and dismissive way to address someone trying to help you, not to mention the number of times you have responded to attempts to explain or rationalize the ability by simply saying "No" and stating that you are correct repeatedly.

Come on, man. That's just low-brow troll behavior. My singular post edit was to add the entire second half, the first version of the post existed for a maximum of five minutes, 18 hours ago, and the closest thing I wrote to an insult is still there.

Let's not tell fibs. It's unbecoming.

Indeed.

You have decided, and stated your disinterest in any explanation or argument to the contrary, so... we're done here, yeah?