I feel like disengaging is not punished enough in this game. Especially after the release of the elves and their ability to shift at really high speeds like the Leonix Riders march 3 with shift modifier allowing them to disengage against 3 initiative speed attacks from Daqan lord units making it a complete 50/50 guessing game on that encounter. Disengaging should be possible but it should be taxing and it definitely should not be doable at such an early initiative speed. The Daqan attacks at speed 3 are also Yellows which means they cannot be reduced to speed two with any upgrades. This left me with the first truly frustrating experiences in game play since the game was launched.

The dial guessing is a major part of the game but its never a 50/50 random guessing game that can leave your unit doing completely nothing that turn if you guess incorrectly.

In my opinion, there's a difference between reading your opponent and guessing. If you feel like you are just guessing, you are not reading your opponent right. Of course, that doesn't negate your negative experience.

Are you remembering to assign panic tokens for disengaging?

40 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

In my opinion, there's a difference between reading your opponent and guessing. If you feel like you are just guessing, you are not reading your opponent right. Of course, that doesn't negate your negative experience.

Are you remembering to assign panic tokens for disengaging?

I am assigning panic tokens but that is not a significant enough punishment for something as major as disengaging.

Shift on almost all dials is a slow initiative action. Daqan units have weak speed 3 attacks and heavier speed 7 attacks that can be modified. These line up perfectly with the speed of shifting on almost all units to work out in a way that you can hit fast to insure your strike or gamble on a slower, stronger hit if they stay engaged with you. The Leonix riders can move on 3 initiative and blue modifier Action shift. That means when they have initiative the elf player can guarantee they disengage before a strike. Now you have to guess to strike or to charge. This is against a cavalry unit that can impact charge you the next round if you guess wrong and it disengages or it can fake you out into charging it as it goes for a heavy attack on you.

The entire game is based on reading the opponent and setting in your command dial actions accordingly. But the initiative speeds in the game are very delicately balanced to make the reading a good skill. This is why having the ability to shift at speed 3, a speed that is usually safe to land an attack before disengages is adding a major random element for melee units facing a Leonix rider that I don't believe was intended. It feels like an oversight that the rules allow for a move action that fails and then a shift modifier action off of that to disengage with almost no drawback vs a unit that was able to catch the riders in melee. This is supposed to be how you punish the cavalry, instead they can get off easily. Because of this I feel disengaging in the game overall is also unpunished.

When you take a look at dial initiative speeds and how they are distributed amongst all the armies you immediately see the general speed of given actions in the game. Shift 3 is not intended when almost all shifts (even the elves) in the game are speed 5+ and almost all melee attacks are speed 4 or less. The shift modifier should not work this way or the punishment for disengaging is not good enough.

I'd say knowing when to shift away is a good part of the game, the fact there is a lot not to it then engage and slog, a mistake many new players make, is important. Punish it too much and the game will be boring as all ****.

22 minutes ago, Darthain said:

I'd say knowing when to shift away is a good part of the game, the fact there is a lot not to it then engage and slog, a mistake many new players make, is important. Punish it too much and the game will be boring as all ****.

You don't have to destroy a unit for disengaging. But just look at the breakdown of the dials. Look at every unit that can melee attack. All speed 2-5. Then the shifts are all speed 6-8. The Leonix Rider modifier shift being able to work on speed 3 is an oversight for sure. It goes against all the timings in the game including the Leonix riders own shift action.

Don't Worry. Daqan will get revenge when we get scouts with lance corporals to attack then shift out of the attack. >:3

If you dial a march in while engaged it fizzles the march and the modifier with it, correct? Earliest leonx shift while engaged is 6.

Every other turn you should have initiative to strike at 3.

Are you just now realizing what it's felt like to be Waiqar this whole time?

One of our best strategies involves getting to keep our trays of dead units long enough to attack one time.

6 hours ago, Zaid_kw said:

You don't have to destroy a unit for disengaging. But just look at the breakdown of the dials. Look at every unit that can melee attack. All speed 2-5. Then the shifts are all speed 6-8. The Leonix Rider modifier shift being able to work on speed 3 is an oversight for sure. It goes against all the timings in the game including the Leonix riders own shift action.

All future units should conform to the initiative range of the core set?

Really?

Almost seems like they planned out sweeping strike just for leonx lol.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

Every other turn you should have initiative to strike at 3.

Are you just now realizing what it's felt like to be Waiqar this whole time?

One of our best strategies involves getting to keep our trays of dead units long enough to attack one time.

It's not that simple. They can choose to be disengaged During the turns have initiative and charge on the off turn or they can bluff you and swing on a turn you think you can charge. This is what I mean by a 50/50 on something that doesn't exist anywhere else.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

All future units should conform to the initiative range of the core set?

Really?

The unit itself doesn't have shift at speed 3! Come on now. It cannot shift three unless it's engaged and does a move that fizzles and then triggers a modifier anyway. And then it shifts at a speed 3 lower than anything else they have ever put on a dial. This is exactly why it's clearly not meant to do something like that. This is why all melee attacks are before all shifts. Every single waiqar unit can attack every single other unit before it shifts. This is universally true except for Leonix using an action at a speed that was not intended.

1 hour ago, Jukey said:

Almost seems like they planned out sweeping strike just for leonx lol.

So only armies with sweeping strikes or support rune golems can hit a Leonix with a melee attack? Nothing else requires that specific a counter to do something as basic as landing a melee attack when you are engaged with them. This is a fundamental of the game.

There are many frustrating moments in this game and I've been on the receiving end plenty of times.

Missing a charge because oathsworn galloped into you with a 2 move mod on an early march is bothersome but avoidable. Waiqar archers blighting the dice off your unit is another instance of a unit unable to do anything yet it's still solvable. Wind rune latari are infuriatingly shifty and they still can be killed.

So about the leonx... for waiqar there's raven standard and file leader. As well as deathblighters and of course just diceblight.

I don't play Daqan, but the before mentioned sweeping strikes is good. Oathsworn with moi tend to level a full rank of cats so getting the long charge and just killing them first is a possibility. Make kari engage a scion and just use it to throw surge knives would be a hilarious way to kill a lot of cats because the lone scion can't do much, if any damage to kari.

8 minutes ago, Jukey said:

There are many frustrating moments in this game and I've been on the receiving end plenty of times.

Missing a charge because oathsworn galloped into you with a 2 move mod on an early march is bothersome but avoidable. Waiqar archers blighting the dice off your unit is another instance of a unit unable to do anything yet it's still solvable. Wind rune latari are infuriatingly shifty and they still can be killed.

So about the leonx... for waiqar there's raven standard and file leader. As well as deathblighters and of course just diceblight.

I don't play Daqan, but the before mentioned sweeping strikes is good. Oathsworn with moi tend to level a full rank of cats so getting the long charge and just killing them first is a possibility. Make kari engage a scion and just use it to throw surge knives would be a hilarious way to kill a lot of cats because the lone scion can't do much, if any damage to kari.

I have no issues with the game balance in other aspects. I have an issue with something that needs a simple errata so that it is in line with the rest of the entire game or a more severe punishment for disengaging to make up for it

Take my comments with a grain of salt since I haven't played against elves, but is it so broken to have 1 unit that can do this? If only one of them breaks the trend of shift initiative, that seems pretty intentional to me.

I can't believe your asking for an erratum so early. How many games have you played where this was a problem? One the WORST things about the X-Wing forums is the constant cry to "fix this" and "nerf that." You've come to this discussion with your mind made up about changing the game instead of changing how you play. Before you scream for errata, you should first have a discussion about possible counters.

One thing to keep in mind is that you have a whole list of units. If a 1-on-1 fight with a unit of Leonx Riders is undesirable, don't get into that situation. Try to threaten or block the disengage from the side or rear. If you are engaged with it on two sides, it can't disengage.

Also, how is this "50-50" situations different from ones we've had before? If someone is at close range to you, are they going to charge early or charge late? If they charge early, you set a melee attack to hit them after the charge. If they go late to avoid your melee attack, you can charge them first. If you choose wrong, you're screwed. I only own a single core so far and that's been a part of my games from the very beginning.

Unless you've already played 10 games or so where this is a problem, I think you need to play more games where you are fully aware of this tactic BEFORE getting engaged with the Leonx Riders and plan your maneuvers accordingly.

Again, I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but I am saying we need to look at in-game solutions first, before we go to out-of-game solutions.

Captivating Hexer, for instance, is a thing nobody seems to have tried.

7 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

Take my comments with a grain of salt since I haven't played against elves, but is it so broken to have 1 unit that can do this? If only one of them breaks the trend of shift initiative, that seems pretty intentional to me.

I can't believe your asking for an erratum so early. How many games have you played where this was a problem? One the WORST things about the X-Wing forums is the constant cry to "fix this" and "nerf that." You've come to this discussion with your mind made up about changing the game instead of changing how you play. Before you scream for errata, you should first have a discussion about possible counters.

One thing to keep in mind is that you have a whole list of units. If a 1-on-1 fight with a unit of Leonx Riders is undesirable, don't get into that situation. Try to threaten or block the disengage from the side or rear. If you are engaged with it on two sides, it can't disengage.

Also, how is this "50-50" situations different from ones we've had before? If someone is at close range to you, are they going to charge early or charge late? If they charge early, you set a melee attack to hit them after the charge. If they go late to avoid your melee attack, you can charge them first. If you choose wrong, you're screwed. I only own a single core so far and that's been a part of my games from the very beginning.

Unless you've already played 10 games or so where this is a problem, I think you need to play more games where you are fully aware of this tactic BEFORE getting engaged with the Leonx Riders and plan your maneuvers accordingly.

Again, I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but I am saying we need to look at in-game solutions first, before we go to out-of-game solutions.

Ok I think I didn't get my point across entirely.

Complete Unit Dials

Here is a list of all the dials in the game for reference. All melee attacks in the game including for future units start at speed 2 and go up to speed 4 and archers can shoot on a 5 in general. Every unit in the game shifts on speed 6 or higher INCLUDING THE LEONIX RIDER. This is not a unit that is an exception it also shifts on speed 6. This is an intentional design choice to allow units to strike a unit engaged with them BEFORE they can shift. Its a fundamental design of the game because you are engaged with someone else you get to strike them before they can disengage. This is an elusive cavalry unit that you just caught or worse yet it caught you. I am facing players that have several squads of leonix riders that are able to pin your units or large squads down and avoid attacks in a way that was not intended whatsoever. They are able to use a flawed rule to march and have it fizzle and shift at the speed of their 3 initiative march allowing them to have a shift at initiative 3 ONLY WHEN THEY ARE ENGAGED. They cannot do this when they are not engaged even if they wanted to. The game otherwise does not allow for this kind of 50/50 situation. You have it in other areas of the game but they are much more educated guesses that you can read ahead of time. This one is coincidentally at the same speed of the attack of most competent melee units (3) and allows for them to move without punishment and chain this disengage and charge repeatedly between two units throwing a punch of panic into the mix also. I even have stun golems in there to remove they modifier but impact allows them to regularly trigger effects that make me lose an upgrade of their choice if they dont aim remove it as they are likely to do since thats another specialty of the elves.

The drawback of disengaging is 1 Panic AND that you cannot do it before everyone gets a chance to melee swing on you. You are fleeing from the fight, you dont get to do this for free. This needs resolving because it was not intended to be an option in the first place and its a powerful abusive ability.

I feel like this isn't really that big of an issue since only 2 units can do this. You are wasting actions to stall essentially.

19 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

I feel like this isn't really that big of an issue since only 2 units can do this. You are wasting actions to stall essentially.

Its not two units its Leonix rider and you can spam a bunch of them. And you are not wasting your action since you can charge with lots of moral test results and totally wreck units. I have had a fully decked out 9 tray Spearmen who caught the Leonix riders trapped by this. Its an error that needs rectifying.

The onus is on the opponent to play correctly with initiative and engage favourably, sounds like a good learning experience. Letting them hammer you , grab initiative and run is probably bad play on your part. The British learned this some time ago.

Also, you are running a 9 tray, you are giving up mobility (heavily) in a maneuver game. Expect to pay for mass with inflexibility. I don't fully understand the dealing with x death star threads, as less units and bigger units means more room to run circles on them, which it sounds like your opponent did. You just got outplayed, hard.

Maybe it is a design flaw, but maybe not. Before we jump to that conclusion, though, we should consider possible counter plays, strategies, and combo tech.

Again, how many game have you played where this is a problem? I'm really curious to know so that I have an idea on how many times you've tried to fight it. I'm not asking to make you look bad or anything. If it's only a handful of games, I think there is plenty of room to figure out how to deploy or maneuver differently.

You say that they cannot shift at initiative 3 unless they are engaged but that's not true at all. They could still do a speed-1 march and then shift off of that at inititive 3 in any turn.

Having a conversation about what is clear, incontrovertible game design intent without the game designers being part of it seems a little presumptive.

still if ONLY ONE unit in the entire game was going to have this ability, my vote would go to the cat cavalry as well. I agree with the others that this should be a tactics discussion on how to counter, not a design discussion on what to errata.

I'd also offer that the design evidence that their shift ACTION is ini-6, so clearly their MODIFIER shouldn't work on an earlier initiative (2/3 of their moves are below ini-6) is invalid. IF the action shift was an ini-3, that would mean they could shift-1 disengage before you attack, then reform and next turn March away to a better target or even flank charge you. So comparatively I think that dial is in a pretty good place right now, and look forward to coming up with better tactics to defeat it.

Outland Scouts can do these bonus shift shenanigans too.

But on to counters. Maybe include some 2 tray crossbowmen on your flanks. I feel like you just want to nerf stuff that counters your spearstar.

How have you tried to counter this?

1 hour ago, Darthain said:

The onus is on the opponent to play correctly with initiative and engage favourably, sounds like a good learning experience. Letting them hammer you , grab initiative and run is probably bad play on your part. The British learned this some time ago.

Also, you are running a 9 tray, you are giving up mobility (heavily) in a maneuver game. Expect to pay for mass with inflexibility. I don't fully understand the dealing with x death star threads, as less units and bigger units means more room to run circles on them, which it sounds like your opponent did. You just got outplayed, hard.

Its not an issue of only having a large blob or a bunch of small units im simply trying to explain to you how this is a fundamental error. I think you just havent been playing the game with competent players if you dont see the imbalance here. Ill let you learn about it on your own.

1 hour ago, Budgernaut said:

Maybe it is a design flaw, but maybe not. Before we jump to that conclusion, though, we should consider possible counter plays, strategies, and combo tech.

Again, how many game have you played where this is a problem? I'm really curious to know so that I have an idea on how many times you've tried to fight it. I'm not asking to make you look bad or anything. If it's only a handful of games, I think there is plenty of room to figure out how to deploy or maneuver differently.

You say that they cannot shift at initiative 3 unless they are engaged but that's not true at all. They could still do a speed-1 march and then shift off of that at inititive 3 in any turn.

No unit can DISENGAGE at speed 3. They cannot Simply shift and disengage. This is why this particular move with this unit using an oversight in the rules is allowing it to break up the order of when units can normally disengage that is present in the rest of the entire game. This is what I am repeating over and over. Look at the dials. Look at what the units do. Experience this first hand. I have played a bunch of games with this as Undead and Daqan and not only myself its also others in our playgroup and the results are always the same. This ability to ignore the negatives of a disengage is very wrong and I am certain as the game continues it will be addressed. It simply does not follow how all of the rest of the initiatives are laid out in design.

26 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Outland Scouts can do these bonus shift shenanigans too.

But on to counters. Maybe include some 2 tray crossbowmen on your flanks. I feel like you just want to nerf stuff that counters your spearstar.

How have you tried to counter this?

Outland scouts cannot disengage before an engaged unit attacks them. Again ONLY LEONIX RIDERS can do such a thing and only because of how modifier actions are ruled in that you can fail an action and still modifier action at that same speed. There are a few counters to this, Stunning them with a support golem or a rune golem (forces you to make a spearstar to include this which I dont always want to include in my lists.) and Rune golems are easily avoided on their own by the leonix. Crossbowmen do not yet exist in the game. Having an extra free unit to counter the disengage works but Usually the Leonix player is spamming this unit with usually 3 or 4 of these units to alternate counter pin charges while his archers and hero target kill the rest. Lord Hawthorne is a good counter in two ways, he hits on 3 and he has sweeping strikes but you have to play lord hawthorne and you have to field him as a hero not an upgrade and have him go toe to toe alone. The other issue is that the Leonix riders are great at removing figure upgrades due to moral and elven ability to aim so much. This counters the best ways to counter them.

34 minutes ago, Zaid_kw said:

Its not an issue of only having a large blob or a bunch of small units im simply trying to explain to you how this is a fundamental error. I think you just havent been playing the game with competent players if you dont see the imbalance here. Ill let you learn about it on your own.

Gotcha, you are clearly right despite all suggestion and lack of support, and everyone else is wrong., it is so clear now that you properly supported and provided the requested information. The elves are the most mobile army, faulting them for being mobile is a bit silly. Again, plan accordingly. If you know they are shifting, you charge them and reestablish contact. If you can't do that, you probably engaged very poorly.

I'm not convinced it's an oversight or a mistake. I think one of the designers might have a cat for a pet though.

when cats hunt, they pounce on their prey and then jump back and watch it for a moment.

gameplaywise, if a leonx stays engaged with most units they die a quick death. So it seems the game designers gave them a little feline flavor.