1 minute ago, viedit said:Why not both?
Beefy glory (200)
Luke Skywalker — T-65 X-Wing 62
Servomotor S-Foils 0
Ship Total: 62
Half Points: 31 Threshold: 3
Wedge Antilles — T-65 X-Wing 52
Servomotor S-Foils 0
Ship Total: 52
Half Points: 26 Threshold: 3
Gray Squadron Bomber — BTL-A4 Y-Wing 31
Ion Cannon Turret 4
Veteran Turret Gunner 6
Ship Total: 41
Half Points: 21 Threshold: 4
Blue Squadron Scout — UT-60D U-Wing 43
Leia Organa 2
Pivot Wing 0
Ship Total: 45
Half Points: 23 Threshold: 4
17 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:So I'm not crazy in thinking that 4/5+ ship lists are mathematically better because more dice = greater likelihood of normalized dice variance? Basically tie Swarm is good (when people fly it) because it can expect for its dice to eventually behave only because they will have thrown so many reds and greens throughout the course of the game. Howlrunner is exceptionally good because she essentially increases the amount of red dice you roll, so you're more able to achieve a normalized distribution (or better because you're re-rolling only unfavorable results). Two ships throw so many less red and green dice that they can get varianced significantly more often because they do not roll enough dice to reach average over the course of a game. Just a pet theory I suppose.
You're not crazy....but that isn't the complete answer for a couple of reasons.
1) There's a very clear trade-off in number of ships shooting and positional advantage and/or higher PS kills. If you're not shooting because you don't have targets or have been exploded/crippled with a crit, that extra ship is wasted.
2) Depending on the list you build, fewer pilots often leverage abilities/talents/crew/etc.. to be able to modify red dice better than larger lists on their own. Tavson, QD, and Kylo is doing well, is a small list but is able to modify a ton of dice.
3) Even an individual game, you won't throw enough dice for things to "even out," and evening out isn't even really what's always noticeable. It's the timing of those results against your opponent's results. Rolling three evades when you only need one isn't worth anything extra even though it is part of the total results.
All this is to say that there I really think that there's always ways to avoid variance -- they just get there in different ways.
1 hour ago, LagJanson said:As a Rebel player (note: I did not say a "good" Rebel player) I'm not sold on Wedge. He has definite uses if you're trying to unload damage fast, but Wedge will burn out quickly so if he's the corner piece of the list you will be in for a battle. 52 points though, keep him cheap and he's definitely worth it.
I much rather scrape ten more points together for Luke...
53 minutes ago, impspy said:Yeah I think that's the fundamental issue. Wedge can't be the obvious target in your list or he'll die, which makes me wonder (yet again) why more people aren't running lean/naked Luke? You'd think that people would be thrilled to have consistent double mods or mods when stressed...
45 minutes ago, viedit said:Why not both?
Yeah, I'm doing both. They both seem to have a good combo of stats, ability, and efficiency.
1 hour ago, impspy said:Yeah I think that's the fundamental issue. Wedge can't be the obvious target in your list or he'll die, which makes me wonder (yet again) why more people aren't running lean/naked Luke? You'd think that people would be thrilled to have consistent double mods or mods when stressed...
It's worth remembering that wedge has better average damage output than luke against focused targets with 1 or more agility. And he's 10 points cheaper. And he can take swarm tactics to give you 2x i6 shots. and he pairs nicely with biggs.
In isolation i'd prefer luke, but as part of a mixed squad with leia and biggs, wedge is nice and frees up points for the other ships.
5 minutes ago, evcameron said:It's worth remembering that wedge has better average damage output than luke against focused targets with 1 or more agility. And he's 10 points cheaper. And he can take swarm tactics to give you 2x i6 shots. and he pairs nicely with biggs.
In isolation i'd prefer luke, but as part of a mixed squad with leia and biggs, wedge is nice and frees up points for the other ships.
Yep. Comparisons in a vacuum is one thing... comparisons put into play within a complete list changes everything.
In our (incredibly meta relevant) Alaska hyperspace trial, the final game came down to two Luke/Wedge lists, and remarkably neither ran Leia. I went undefeated through Swiss and in to the final with this list.
T-65 X-wing - •Wedge Antilles - 58
•Wedge Antilles - Red Two (52)
Predator (2)
R2 Astromech (4)
Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)
RZ-1 A-wing - Phoenix Squadron Pilot - 33
Phoenix Squadron Pilot - (30)
Intimidation (3)
RZ-1 A-wing - Phoenix Squadron Pilot - 33
Phoenix Squadron Pilot - (30)
Intimidation (3)
T-65 X-wing - •Luke Skywalker - 74
•Luke Skywalker - Red Five (62)
•R2-D2 (6)
Sense (6)
Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)
Total: 198/200
View in the X-Wing Squad Builder
There’s an easy 12 points to play with between the droids and the bid. The real combo is between Sense on Luke and the super blocker A-Wings. It’s incredibly deadly, as I’ll shoot for R3 opening engagement where I try to minimize incoming damage. Then Luke will get a range 3 Sense, just in time to put an A-Wing in position for the block. As for Wedge, I really liked having Predator on him, with the reliable blocks it was pretty easy put him in line for the bullseye. I’ll play a little more cautiously with him, while I’m a little more aggressive with Luke. Often my opponents were having to choose between a range 1 on Luke or an A-Wing and a range 2 on Wedge. The A-Wings are incredibly aggressive, performing deep dives in to the enemy lines to get blocks, and then just generally being pests.
I haven’t gotten to play in a big regional since Jumpmasters were a thing, but I would encourage people (again) to look at Phoenix Squadrons with Intimidation. That is a scary 33 points to have within half a board length of you.
RZ-1s are cool.
I personally like both the visual and game design of them a lot better than RZ-2s, so I love seeing people do well with them.
Very intrigued by them and sort of wanting to try them.
So you do think that they're better than just finding the points for Ion Turret Y's?
17 minutes ago, Kieransi said:So you do think that they're better than just finding the points for Ion Turret Y's?
It’s funny you should ask, as my opponent in the final was running naked Luke and Wedge with two Ion/VTG Greys. He crushed me in around five turns of fighting, but that may have had more to do with his xwings only rolling Crits and the occasional Hit. In fact I think his Y-Wings did a total of one damage. At one point he nattied 4 crits on my Luke, one shot an A-Wing, two shot an A-Wing, and then two or three shot Wedge. I think he spent a total of one Force, one focus, and one target lock on all his attacks.
Really it might come down to matchup, Sense and Intimidate A-Wings are amazing anti-ace tech. Against Rebel Beef, Intimidate is less important than sticking good blocks and arc dodging with the X-Wings. I’m just glad I didn’t go up against an ace with Supernatural or Advanced Sensors.
Maybe one of each?
Edited by Phelan Boots1 hour ago, Phelan Boots said: Maybe one of each?
This kind of thinking has been sort of following me around ever since flying this at the end of 1.0:
(or something like that, 1.0 is sort of hazy for me now... I'm sure @acegard, the inventor, remembers what the list was)
I think mixed swarms are significantly better than single-ship spam, due to the ability to adapt. Honestly wondering if this will end up being the best Rebel swarm:
(or drop some stuff for VTG on the Y if that's your jam)
10 hours ago, Kieransi said:RZ-1s are cool.
I personally like both the visual and game design of them a lot better than RZ-2s, so I love seeing people do well with them.
Very intrigued by them and sort of wanting to try them.
So you do think that they're better than just finding the points for Ion Turret Y's?
When I find all the cardboard and dials id love to to get back to testing this (had to proxy up some components for playtesting)
Green squadron pilot x4
Proton rockets
crackshot
Arvel Crynryd
Intimidation
Predator
So basic idea was that Arvel ties something up, and the rest go to work blowing something up. Crackshot is to help push damage from the already expended rocket As.
The two test games went well. Barely lost to a double tapping Y-wing with B-wing aces list (B-wings Ps killed my surviving ships after they blew up the Y-wing), and the game that got cut short I blew up Han in a Han/Lando (rebel falcon) list without any losses.
Formation flying is pretty key, and this list can take time to learn well, especially if you’ve never flown arc dodgers before.
I’ve been debating changing up Arvels epts a little, or maybe something else besides crackshot? I’m just not sure.
The list definitely packs a punch, reminds me of snap crackle pop A-wings from 1.0, but the snap has more teeth instead of double tap.
could this takedown Ion Ys? Hmm.... idk
I am admittedly disappointed that this thread had degenerated into discussing strengths/weaknesses of lists and strategy in the game.....
...now where's my tea?
31 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:I am admittedly disappointed that this thread had degenerated into discussing strengths/weaknesses of lists and strategy in the game.....
We can return it to the trolling any time we want...
31 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:...now where's my tea?
And to prove it, I've hidden your tea...
It's going to be another low game count for me this week. Only got one game in at the store night, learned yet another combination of ships that doesn't work spectacularly well in the CIS faction. I admit I'm starting to stare longingly at those Jedi starfighters. No matter how weak my will power is, I'll hold pat and not buy... because the store sold out.
2 hours ago, LagJanson said:We can return it to the trolling any time we want...
23 hours ago, evcameron said:It's worth remembering that wedge has better average damage output than luke against focused targets with 1 or more agility. And he's 10 points cheaper. And he can take swarm tactics to give you 2x i6 shots. and he pairs nicely with biggs.
In isolation i'd prefer luke, but as part of a mixed squad with leia and biggs, wedge is nice and frees up points for the other ships.
I'm not sure "against a focused target" is a good comparison. He's more damage on that particular shot. Luke is more likely to have them spend a focus. Which does more damage against a 2 agility target with a focus, as part of your whole list shooting that target?
I don't actually know - it's going to depend on a lot of things.
10 minutes ago, Brunas said:I'm not sure "against a focused target" is a good comparison. He's more damage on that particular shot. Luke is more likely to have them spend a focus. Which does more damage against a 2 agility target with a focus, as part of your whole list shooting that target?
I don't actually know - it's going to depend on a lot of things.
The obvious and unsatisfying answer is that sometimes Wedge will do more damage and sometimes Luke will do more damage, and it's heavily situationally dependent based on the target's stats, the likelihood of getting a shot due to repositioning by X-wing or the target, and the number of ships involved making supporting shots.
These are all then in turn modified by the ability of both players to promote or avoid one game state or another.
Sooooooo.
Nobody really knows.
3 hours ago, LagJanson said:And to prove it, I've hidden your tea...
I knew it.... drats!
As far as CSI and Jedi Starfighters, I agree, they do look tempting, but I too can hold out. Plus I'm kinda rather sleepy now anyway.
Just now, Biophysical said:The obvious and unsatisfying answer is that sometimes Wedge will do more damage and sometimes Luke will do more damage, and it's heavily situationally dependent based on the target's stats, the likelihood of getting a shot due to repositioning by X-wing or the target, and the number of ships involved making supporting shots.
These are all then in turn modified by the ability of both players to promote or avoid one game state or another.
Sooooooo.
Nobody really knows.
There is also the fact that Wedge can force unoptimized token spending. Soontir being forced to spend a focus on 2 green die feels bad when there are follow up shots.
40 minutes ago, Brunas said:I'm not sure "against a focused target" is a good comparison. He's more damage on that particular shot. Luke is more likely to have them spend a focus. Which does more damage against a 2 agility target with a focus, as part of your whole list shooting that target?
I don't actually know - it's going to depend on a lot of things.
And that Luke is more likely to survive to shoot again, but wedge gets 10 more points of other things shooting. Yadda yadda.
40 minutes ago, Brunas said:I'm not sure "against a focused target" is a good comparison. He's more damage on that particular shot. Luke is more likely to have them spend a focus. Which does more damage against a 2 agility target with a focus, as part of your whole list shooting that target?
I don't actually know - it's going to depend on a lot of things.
Totally fair and true. The answer to the question "which is better, Luke or Wedge?" is the same as the answer to most questions: "it depends..."
Edited by evcameronNot sure if anybody has even looked at the FFG variant formats... but Evacuation of D'qar... Ouch. Tournament out the other side of the city for it, and seeing as how I'll be a couple of weeks from any reasonable table time I started fiddling with lists. That is seriously restrictive. Not a lot of named pilots, so no Resistance I5s, anyway. No Upsilon. No Silencers with the exception of Kylo.
I'll predict a lot of Quickdraw, Kylo, Poe and bombs... (Also, 5 A-Wings... cuz, y'know...)
Edited by LagJansonYeah I looked at that and I think there's going to be one here soon... the lack of other Silencers makes me sad because that's my favorite Sequels ship. And I miss Tavson...
I actually had a ton of fun at our D’qar event using sense Kylo, Midnight, and Quickdraw.
I thought the format would be garbage but the games were really fun.
Edited by Dismal Scientist3 hours ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:There is also the fact that Wedge can force unoptimized token spending. Soontir being forced to spend a focus on 2 green die feels bad when there are follow up shots.
But I don’t think that’s special to wedge...Soontir getting shot by multiple targets and spending his focus on the first is a clench moment no matter who shot him first.
But they are pretty even
wedge
i6(although doesn’t want to barrel roll if he doesn’t have to)
aggressive “feeling” ability
cheaper
luke
i5 that actually likes repositioning
really strong ability with force
Oh yeah, force
defensive enough ability to be more aggressive with actions
more expensive(but might hold those points better)
i think Luke kinda wins in my book but also y wings, u wing, b wings and leia are so good that taking either x wing pilot feels good and taking an x wing at all could even be a “mistake”?idk
3 hours ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:There is also the fact that Wedge can force unoptimized token spending. Soontir being forced to spend a focus on 2 green die feels bad when there are follow up shots.
Wedge is less likely to force that spending though?
Less dice rolled means less chance to roll any focus results.
12 minutes ago, Dismal Scientist said:I actually had a ton of fun at our D’qar event using sense Kylo, Midnight, and Quickdraw.
I thought the format would be garbage but the games were really fun.
That cool, if my local tire does it I’m all over that same list with burners on midnight and QuickDraw, everyone gets to boost!