6 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

He also got conceded to in finals, and I'm not hearing a real game in top 4... so...

...so?

I just thought it was interesting. And fun. Not everything is contrarian or making any sort of statement.

Just now, gennataos said:

I just thought it was interesting. And fun. Not everything is contrarian or making any sort of statement.

Fair enough.

Interesting things does that man PhilGC achieve. That whole scene is relatively local to me and I've followed much.

Similar feats have been performed with 2 small ships recently.

I started out 2.0 with Rex and Ryad and was continuously informed that 2 ship lists, let alone 2 small bases, aren't up to scratch. It's still a general consensus. So it always pleases me to see someone buck that in a serious way.

I think it's a matter of moving parts in a squad. Most people only seem to use 2, maybe 3. Even a swarm will tend not to break into too many different areas and angles.

2 parts is often enough, bait with one, hit with another. No reason 2 small ships can't achieve something if it has a solid plan and pilot. I think that last qualifier seems to go for just about anything people want to put on the table in 2.0.

Fenn and Guri is kinda taking the pi55 though.

21 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I think I'd phrase it more like most players don't like it when their opponent gets to play the game

Well stated Mak...

12 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Interesting things does that man PhilGC achieve. That whole scene is relatively local to me and I've followed much.

Similar feats have been performed with 2 small ships recently.

I started out 2.0 with Rex and Ryad and was continuously informed that 2 ship lists, let alone 2 small bases, aren't up to scratch. It's still a general consensus. So it always pleases me to see someone buck that in a serious way.

I think it's a matter of moving parts in a squad. Most people only seem to use 2, maybe 3. Even a swarm will tend not to break into too many different areas and angles.

2 parts is often enough, bait with one, hit with another. No reason 2 small ships can't achieve something if it has a solid plan and pilot. I think that last qualifier seems to go for just about anything people want to put on the table in 2.0.

Fenn and Guri is kinda taking the pi55 though.

2 ships can work, but it takes one bad dice roll.

I ran a pair of Supernatural 7b Aethersprites, Mace and Anakin. And while I won, a few bad variance events nearly did me in. In one case Anakin had two range three unmodded attacks from stressed TIEs, and had focus and two force. Full health. Took 4 damage as I rolled all blanks.

Now, to be fair, one was Scourge with the bullseye, which I could have rolled out of the bullseye, but thought I could PS kill Scourge first. It was one turn that was a bit of a risk, with the potential for a kill.

Then Mace has two consecutive turns of range 1 force TL shots at Duchess, and did two damage. This would hurt as she would eventually deal 4 damage to Mace in subsequent turns.

Granted two turns later Mace one shotted a full health Howlrunner at range 1, after taking a single damage.

I think I had three turnovers turns where Anakin had a chance to init kill a 1 health ship with full mods and did not. Including two at range 1.

So can a two ship list do well? Certainly! But they also have a glaring weakness that they don’t have the numbers or health to make up for a couple of turns bad dice variance. A third ship is almost always best, simply because it reduces variance. Especially when 5-6 ship lists are common (my opponent was flying 5 I5’s, 4 of which had a conditional extra attack die).

5 hours ago, jagsba said:

Years of mynocks talking up Dallas's ability like it's a preternatural skill, combined with an inability to count above 5, the aversion to 2 die attacks, and the lack of an ace to make you feel special.

Lord you get free wins when you get past that though.

this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this

also, sorry about the no new episodes for a bit - life is complicated at the moment, haven't had time to play much (much less record). Soon™?

11 minutes ago, Brunas said:

sorry about the no new episodes for a bit - life is complicated at the moment, haven't had time to play much (much less record). Soon™?

Record what now? Who are you? Should I know your work?

23 minutes ago, Brunas said:

also, sorry about the no new episodes for a bit - life is complicated at the moment, haven't had time to play much (much less record). Soon™?

hmmm

1 hour ago, Makaze said:

I think I'd phrase it more like most players don't like it when their opponent gets to play the game

51 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

2 ships can work, but it takes one bad dice roll.

True fact. Sudden half points can be painful. The tricky part of that is being cautious enough that you don't lose too much on bad rolls, but also being aggressive enough to earn the points back if the necessary risks turn foul. It's a frightening state to constantly be in.

So looking at new Paige Tico Rules. Edon can do this with Proton Bombs in a single turn.

Bob's Single "Turn" Bubbles are a little more intense. Pick any two bomb locations once per game. Add Rocks for more Bubbles.

Are these maps correct? How Bob?

41 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

So looking at new Paige Tico Rules. Edon can do this with Proton Bombs in a single turn.

Bob's Single "Turn" Bubbles are a little more intense. Pick any two bomb locations once per game. Add Rocks for more Bubbles.

Finch Dallow — MG-100 StarFortress	66
Informant	5
Skilled Bombardier	2
Paige Tico	7
Seismic Charges	3
Proton Bombs	5
Ship Total: 88
Half Points: 44 Threshold: 6
Poe Dameron — T-70 X-Wing	68
Heroic	1
R4 Astromech	2
Integrated S-Foils	0
Black One	2
Ship Total: 73
Half Points: 37 Threshold: 4
L’ulo L’ampar — RZ-2 A-Wing	38
Heroic	1
Ship Total: 39
Half Points: 20 Threshold: 2

Are these maps correct? How Bob?

Thanks, I hate it

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

So looking at new Paige Tico Rules. Edon can do this with Proton Bombs in a single turn.

Bob's Single "Turn" Bubbles are a little more intense. Pick any two bomb locations once per game. Add Rocks for more Bubbles.

Finch Dallow — MG-100 StarFortress	66
Informant	5
Skilled Bombardier	2
Paige Tico	7
Seismic Charges	3
Proton Bombs	5
Ship Total: 88
Half Points: 44 Threshold: 6
Poe Dameron — T-70 X-Wing	68
Heroic	1
R4 Astromech	2
Integrated S-Foils	0
Black One	2
Ship Total: 73
Half Points: 37 Threshold: 4
L’ulo L’ampar — RZ-2 A-Wing	38
Heroic	1
Ship Total: 39
Half Points: 20 Threshold: 2

Are these maps correct? How Bob?

Erm: Before you would drop a bomb, you may place it in the play area touching you instead.

Are you going for just the extreme edges of Dallow's "drops" because I think you're missing quite a few places for them otherwise? Anywhere touching him is valid, not just the corners of his base. Otherwise, yah. Looks about right... Maybe a hair or two narrow in some areas (along the ship's base edges mostly).

10 hours ago, millertime059 said:

2 ships can work, but it takes one bad dice roll.

I ran a pair of Supernatural 7b Aethersprites, Mace and Anakin. And while I won, a few bad variance events nearly did me in. In one case Anakin had two range three unmodded attacks from stressed TIEs, and had focus and two force. Full health. Took 4 damage as I rolled all blanks.

Now, to be fair, one was Scourge with the bullseye, which I could have rolled out of the bullseye, but thought I could PS kill Scourge first. It was one turn that was a bit of a risk, with the potential for a kill.

Then Mace has two consecutive turns of range 1 force TL shots at Duchess, and did two damage. This would hurt as she would eventually deal 4 damage to Mace in subsequent turns.

Granted two turns later Mace one shotted a full health Howlrunner at range 1, after taking a single damage.

I think I had three turnovers turns where Anakin had a chance to init kill a 1 health ship with full mods and did not. Including two at range 1.

So can a two ship list do well? Certainly! But they also have a glaring weakness that they don’t have the numbers or health to make up for a couple of turns bad dice variance. A third ship is almost always best, simply because it reduces variance. Especially when 5-6 ship lists are common (my opponent was flying 5 I5’s, 4 of which had a conditional extra attack die).

Don't forget the lesser-known aspect of 2 ship variance: red dice. Seriously, when your lock rerolls blanks to blanks, even just twice in a row, you're ******. If your opponent's greens always give them just what they need, your arc dodging will not save them now. I flew a bunch of Super Kylo + Adv. Sensor QD: both are super cagey and hit insanely hard with a penchant for double mods. Going with a 75+% tourney winrate to the Springfield OH trial, I was confident. Until I realized I should have had more pieces to more consistently reward good positioning instead of punishing my wasted efforts with consistent range 1 misses. Would a better player do better than my abysmal 3-3 with my list but with even worse rolls? Yes, for sure. But us mortals can only do so much when dealt so much. But all's well. The list becomes unfair in its wielder's favor when variance goes its way: what can you do about cagey fighters that pop in, detonate a ship, and then vanish? Phil GC's performance with Fenn Guri is a demonstration of that, except his patience and skilled game sense render the same effect with a far, far reduced reliance on RNG.

3 hours ago, player3010587 said:

Don't forget the lesser-known aspect of 2 ship variance: red dice.

This is why I think bombs are essential (read Emon) in a 2 ship list. Red dice can't fail you when you are doing auto damage.

Yep red dice variance is what burnt me out of trying Han + xwing.

I never cared much about blanking green dice regardless of what I was flying, but blanking on modified reds feels like not even playing the game.

Having said that, I think we are starting to see example of successful 2 ships builds, its not even just Phil since bartosz was rocking the tough polish meta with luke wedge

10 hours ago, jagsba said:

Thanks, I hate it

9 minutes ago, RStan said:

Speaking of Hate...muh theme!

From the beginning, I was not a Wedge hater. I though for 52 points an I6 guy that hit pretty hard was a solid investment as long as you weren't trying to win games and solo opposing lists with him.

I've run X-wings for the past week now, one of them being Wedge. My assessment of his usefulness has increased. I love that guy. He doesn't get initiative killed, he does his share of initiative killing, and he hits okay without mods if you're blocked, k-turn, or need to roll. The thing I like the most is the reliability. No, you're not increasing average damage that much with his ability, but he removes the opposing ship's chance to get lucky. Furthermore, if he survives a turn, he's going to get his shot next turn, and that shot usually matters. All of this is pretty cool, and I think he's a really solid 52 points.

Thus ends this installment of "Imperial player flies Rebels and makes random observations".

35 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

From the beginning, I was not a Wedge hater. I though for 52 points an I6 guy that hit pretty hard was a solid investment as long as you weren't trying to win games and solo opposing lists with him.

I've run X-wings for the past week now, one of them being Wedge. My assessment of his usefulness has increased. I love that guy. He doesn't get initiative killed, he does his share of initiative killing, and he hits okay without mods if you're blocked, k-turn, or need to roll. The thing I like the most is the reliability. No, you're not increasing average damage that much with his ability, but he removes the opposing ship's chance to get lucky. Furthermore, if he survives a turn, he's going to get his shot next turn, and that shot usually matters. All of this is pretty cool, and I think he's a really solid 52 points.

Thus ends this installment of "Imperial player flies Rebels and makes random observations".

Like your favorite pair of blue jeans. Nothing fancy, just comfortable and always there for you.

2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

From the beginning, I was not a Wedge hater. I though for 52 points an I6 guy that hit pretty hard was a solid investment as long as you weren't trying to win games and solo opposing lists with him.

I've run X-wings for the past week now, one of them being Wedge. My assessment of his usefulness has increased. I love that guy. He doesn't get initiative killed, he does his share of initiative killing, and he hits okay without mods if you're blocked, k-turn, or need to roll. The thing I like the most is the reliability. No, you're not increasing average damage that much with his ability, but he removes the opposing ship's chance to get lucky. Furthermore, if he survives a turn, he's going to get his shot next turn, and that shot usually matters. All of this is pretty cool, and I think he's a really solid 52 points.

Thus ends this installment of "Imperial player flies Rebels and makes random observations".

I play Rebels only casually (more fun to build than to fly in the competitive scene!), but Wedge is why I'm starting to latch on to the edgy neo-Imperial Blackout, especially since passive mod clouds are a thing now. Dropping an init and the consistency of the ability for better action efficiency, dial, firepower, customizability, and having that ability be twice as powerful when it triggers for the double-edge sword of higher cost (better point fortressing, but harder to fit in a list and having to be careful with no regen droids) is very exciting. Sure, Wedge is currently out-performing Blackout right now (although that could be attributed to all the good FO players fielding Kylo instead and so many good Rebel players defaulting to Wedge), but Blackout as an alternative "Super-Wedge" is fun.

As a Rebel player (note: I did not say a "good" Rebel player) I'm not sold on Wedge. He has definite uses if you're trying to unload damage fast, but Wedge will burn out quickly so if he's the corner piece of the list you will be in for a battle. 52 points though, keep him cheap and he's definitely worth it.

I much rather scrape ten more points together for Luke...

5 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

As a Rebel player (note: I did not say a "good" Rebel player) I'm not sold on Wedge. He has definite uses if you're trying to unload damage fast, but Wedge will burn out quickly so if he's the corner piece of the list you will be in for a battle. 52 points though, keep him cheap and he's definitely worth it.

I much rather scrape ten more points together for Luke...

Yeah I think that's the fundamental issue. Wedge can't be the obvious target in your list or he'll die, which makes me wonder (yet again) why more people aren't running lean/naked Luke? You'd think that people would be thrilled to have consistent double mods or mods when stressed...

5 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

Yep red dice variance is what burnt me out of trying Han + xwing.

I never cared much about blanking green dice regardless of what I was flying, but blanking on modified reds feels like not even playing the game.

Having said that, I think we are starting to see example of successful 2 ships builds, its not even just Phil since bartosz was rocking the tough polish meta with luke wedge

So I'm not crazy in thinking that 4/5+ ship lists are mathematically better because more dice = greater likelihood of normalized dice variance? Basically tie Swarm is good (when people fly it) because it can expect for its dice to eventually behave only because they will have thrown so many reds and greens throughout the course of the game. Howlrunner is exceptionally good because she essentially increases the amount of red dice you roll, so you're more able to achieve a normalized distribution (or better because you're re-rolling only unfavorable results). Two ships throw so many less red and green dice that they can get varianced significantly more often because they do not roll enough dice to reach average over the course of a game. Just a pet theory I suppose.

14 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

As a Rebel player (note: I did not say a "good" Rebel player) I'm not sold on Wedge. He has definite uses if you're trying to unload damage fast, but Wedge will burn out quickly so if he's the corner piece of the list you will be in for a battle. 52 points though, keep him cheap and he's definitely worth it.

I much rather scrape ten more points together for Luke...

Why not both?