26 minutes ago, Brunas said:

As of Nordic Nationals, Wedge is officially beating the average cut rate for rebels (13.5% vs 15%). That's a difference of two rebel players making cut out of all 480 lists out there, so obvious boring generic sample size disclaimer.

But I liked it.

Thane: Mr Antilles, I don't feel so good...

Wedge is both super simple to trigger: he works every time you shoot, and the upside of taking away a green is huge.

It was for me anyway. Especially coupled with lock+ focus+torps.

I also met him without torpedoes, and he was still earning his worth every shot.

6 hours ago, Green Knight said:

... and the upside of taking away a green is huge.

Well, I think part of the the Krayts were pointing out is that in a lot of cases it really isn't. It depends a lot on both the attacker and the defender mods and so on whether it's a pretty irrelevant effect (ex. removing an unmodified green die... 3/8 of an evade, meh) or removing a heavily modified one (ex. whisper or palob with focus+evade where it's closer to crack shot). The effectiveness also depends on your own attack strength to some extent; removing a green die when you have a double-modded proton coming in is relatively more valuable than when throwing 3 unmodified reds.

IMO it's a "fine" ability, but not nothing particularly amazing. You take wedge for the i6 torpedoes primarily, with his ability being a nice perk.

11 minutes ago, punkUser said:

Well, I think part of the the Krayts were pointing out is that in a lot of cases it really isn't. It depends a lot on both the attacker and the defender mods and so on whether it's a pretty irrelevant effect (ex. removing an unmodified green die... 3/8 of an evade, meh) or removing a heavily modified one (ex. whisper or palob with focus+evade where it's closer to crack shot). The effectiveness also depends on your own attack strength to some extent; removing a green die when you have a double-modded proton coming in is relatively more valuable than when throwing 3 unmodified reds.

IMO it's a "fine" ability, but not nothing particularly amazing. You take wedge for the i6 torpedoes primarily, with his ability being a nice perk.

It's obviously more potent when shooting r1 at a Perceptive Boba when ur both locked and focused yourself, then at a random Grey Squadron bomber

But my point isn't that it's amazing or anything. The point is that it's universally useful (barring the rare 0 defense dice scenarios), doesn't require any effort on your part, and cannot really be negated.

And given how each ship is likely to only get to shoot a limited number of times, the more important it is to ensure you max damage out and limit negation.

That's why i think Wedge is mighty fine

34 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

It's obviously more potent when shooting r1 at a Perceptive Boba when ur both locked and focused yourself, then at a random Grey Squadron bomber

Wait. Are you playing against Boba players who are letting Wedge live long enough to be both LOCKed and Focused?

Just now, gennataos said:

Wait. Are you playing against Boba players who are letting Wedge live long enough to be both LOCKed and Focused?

It can happen. There are ways that some may find unnatural.

35 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

It's obviously more potent when shooting r1 at a Perceptive Boba when ur both locked and focused yourself, then at a random Grey Squadron bomber

You basically just wrote "when the stars and moon align, and my opponent does not understand what is happening"

36 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

But my point isn't that it's amazing or anything. The point is that it's universally useful (barring the rare 0 defense dice scenarios), doesn't require any effort on your part, and cannot really be negated.

This is far more useful. But again, the actual reason you brought wedge was i6 proton torpedoes. Not his ability - his ability is gravy to the i6 proton torpedo you're slinging. (That's fine, but we keep digressing to his ability).

37 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

And given how each ship is likely to only get to shoot a limited number of times, the more important it is to ensure you max damage out and limit negation.

Sure, but we can acknowledge, like your gray bomber before, this is partially due to a meta that favors boba and whisper, specifically, who can super mod their 2 green dice, and thus removing 1 has a larger effect than usual.

Against MOST ships, wedge ability is a very small damage increase.

38 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

That's why i think Wedge is mighty fine

Wedge is Fine™.

9 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

The actual reason you brought wedge was i6 proton torpedoes. Not his ability - his ability is gravy to the i6 proton torpedo you're slinging. (That's fine, but we keep digressing to his ability).

Wedge is Fine™.

I think we can agree on this right, everyone? He's not world shattering, he's fine because he's an I6 that can reliably deliver at least one proton torp shot (but not always, I promise)?

25 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

You basically just wrote "when the stars and moon align, and my opponent does not understand what is happening"

This is far more useful. But again, the actual reason you brought wedge was i6 proton torpedoes. Not his ability - his ability is gravy to the i6 proton torpedo you're slinging. (That's fine, but we keep digressing to his ability).

Sure, but we can acknowledge, like your gray bomber before, this is partially due to a meta that favors boba and whisper, specifically, who can super mod their 2 green dice, and thus removing 1 has a larger effect than usual.

Against MOST ships, wedge ability is a very small damage increase.

Wedge is Fine™.

Ok, so we're basically agreeing Wedge is fine ?

But in my case I took Wedge both for I6/torpedo AND his ability, paired with Luke torpedo AND his ability.

Bc together they are likely to kill something together at range, rather than just maim it.

And that was my opening gambit so to speak.

X-wing seems finely tuned, so u need to 'push the limit' to get quick kills, and I think Wedge is really Fine(TM) for this.

4 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Wedge is really Fine(TM)

This is where we disagree, I suspect.

Im literally saying he's adequate, and basically the only i6 torp carrier rebels have, so he'd show up even if he had a blank ability. That doesn't make him Good™, that makes him Not Bad™.

The ability, as we can show, is very marginal in most cases. Like, a LOT of cases.

Everyone is allowed to like/love wedge. But we keep pushing back against the feeling his ability is really good, and note that his ability is okay - it adds to the expected damage much less than people feel it does. It may seem like semantics, but those kinds of things matter to me.

16 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Bc together they are likely to kill something together at range, rather than just maim it.

And that was my opening gambit so to speak.

X-wing seems finely tuned, so u need to 'push the limit' to get quick kills, and I think Wedge is really Fine(TM) for this.

I'd also like to stress (without taking away from your achievement at Nordics, because that's effin' awesome) that the Rebel torp alpha is just not going to have a lot of success at a high level at larger events with any sort of consistency.

5 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I'd also like to stress (without taking away from your achievement at Nordics, because that's effin' awesome) that the Rebel torp alpha is just not going to have a lot of success at a high level at larger events with any sort of consistency.

That depends on how you define 'success' for the archetype.

It doesn't make cut well (in terms of % of total cut), or have a high conversion rate for the archetype (in terms of %), but it also just punishes, savagely, the unprepared, which is still a LOT of people.

Also, I really like that Norra as a follow-up.

Rebel Alpha will prevail as long as people are willing to naively joust. And they always will be.

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

That depends on how you define 'success' for the archetype.

It doesn't make cut well (in terms of % of total cut), or have a high conversion rate for the archetype (in terms of %), but it also just punishes, savagely, the unprepared, which is still a LOT of people.

Also, I really like that Norra as a follow-up.

I'm defining it as consistently making the cut. In my head, that's based on data we've seen, my experience at Crossroads and how it's performed locally. For the most part, they seem like lists on the bubble, with a few squeaking into the cut.

3 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Rebel Alpha will prevail as long as people are willing to naively joust. And they always will be.

True dat.

Wedge Is Not Luke™.

I may give people too much credit.

1 minute ago, gennataos said:

I may give people too much credit.

Without knowing how much credit you've already given... You do.

26 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Rebel Alpha will prevail as long as people are willing to naively joust. And they always will be.

Its probably just my dice. If I range 2 joust these 5 barrage rockets and two bombs maybe it will work out differently than last time.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Its probably just my dice. If I range 2 joust these 5 barrage rockets and two proton bombs maybe it will work out differently than last time.

You lose 100% of the races you don't run! (or some such nonsensical statement)

17 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Without knowing how much credit you've already given... You do.

Damnit, you're right. I feel like doing otherwise is the very definition of hubris. I've embraced hubris before and it's usually briefly before a **** the bed.

#IStandWithWedge

@Tlfj200, are you making an attempt to split wedge's out into archetypes or all the lists wedged into one category?

Like this list:

and the list that one nordics are ostensibly both wedge lists, but in practice one of them seems good and the other has a-wings.

9 minutes ago, jagsba said:

@Tlfj200, are you making an attempt to split wedge's out into archetypes or all the lists wedged into one category?

Like this list:

and the list that one nordics are ostensibly both wedge lists, but in practice one of them seems good and the other has a-wings.

At this point in the pre-season, we're not bothering to do archetype breakdowns.

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

At this point in the pre-season, we're not bothering to do archetype breakdowns.

cool, I'll blame a-wings for wedge doing poorly now.

3 hours ago, gennataos said:

I'd also like to stress (without taking away from your achievement at Nordics, because that's effin' awesome) that the Rebel torp alpha is just not going to have a lot of success at a high level at larger events with any sort of consistency.

High Init/PS Alpha strikes have kind of always worked. VI Imperial Alpha was pretty decent, not the best list in the game but still quality, and that doesn't look too different from this. Dengar/Tel won worlds. Maybe the word to key off of is "consistency," but lists like this tend to do well enough to get a few post-cut or in 2nd day of Swiss in most major events.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

High Init/PS Alpha strikes have kind of always worked. VI Imperial Alpha was pretty decent, not the best list in the game but still quality, and that doesn't look too different from this. Dengar/Tel won worlds. Maybe the word to key off of is "consistency," but lists like this tend to do well enough to get a few post-cut or in 2nd day of Swiss in most major events.

Yeah, the key word was intended to be "consistency". Current Alpha lists can easily end up hosed by matchups, variance and just plain being outflown, which is why consider them bubble-type lists.