9 hours ago, svelok said:

the basic upside of DBM is they cost the same, roll the same number of dice, and have the same number of charges as concussion missiles - only the effect is different, so in any matchup/situation where you don't get mileage from the splash effect, you basically just have concussion missiles instead

the basic downside of DBM is to ask yourself how often you actually want to bring concussion missiles in a list

If I'm reading it right, if DBM hits, the initial target also rolls a die (it's a ship at 0-1 of the defender, too), and might suffer an extra damage. So kinda sorta almost not quite a 4-dice missile.

That's not much, but it's not nothing.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

If I'm reading it right, if DBM hits, the initial target also rolls a die (it's a ship at 0-1 of the defender, too), and might suffer an extra damage. So kinda sorta almost not quite a 4-dice missile.

That's not much, but it's not nothing.

Combine the DBM with concussion missiles. Splash some damage onto a swarm, and then a concussion missile can splash and flip all that damage up. Nasty for swarms and vultures.

Something like:

Inquisitor (35)
Passive Sensors (3)
Concussion Missiles (6)

Tomax Bren (36)
Crack Shot (1)
Diamond-Boron Missiles (6)

Lieutenant Sai (47)

“Whisper” (57)
Juke (7)
Total: 198

8 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

Something something x-wing players are risk averse and don't test new things. Yeah no **** there's just too much possible stuff. I get like 4 games a week and if I have a hyperspace trial in three weeks I'll probably just play it safe with 7b jedi instead of risking all my prep games on completely unknown quantities.

33 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

Something something x-wing players are risk averse and don't test new things.

I had made that point very often when wave 2 dropped. Going all-in on rz2awings when nobody knew took some extra motivation that I just don't have for basically every other list.

That's where listfortress jumps in and helps us use the experiences of others. But the first person to jump in needs to see something that others don't

40 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I had made that point very often when wave 2 dropped. Going all-in on rz2awings when nobody knew took some extra motivation that I just don't have for basically every other list.

That's where listfortress jumps in and helps us use the experiences of others. But the first person to jump in needs to see something that others don't

What I'm saying is that i get why most players would, and should be risk-averse in a competitive context, while it seems like some people like to laugh at us for it. Maybe Grievous/O-66/Wat/404 is good but it'll take me more games to figure out than I have between now and the Cleveland Hyperspace Trial (I'm TOing not playing but hypothetically). If I spend all my time between now and then playing it only to find that any Sense Jedi will table me it's really feelsbad, especially if I only get to go to 1-2 hyperspace trials a year. So how would I not better off just practicing a known quantity like inferno squad, or a ruff on what used to be good like rebel tofu? Or take an old good squad that got buffed like obi+mace+whatever?

16 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

So how would I not better off just practicing a known quantity like inferno squad, or a ruff on what used to be good like rebel tofu? Or take an old good squad that got buffed like obi+mace+whatever?

I completely understand, I'm in the same boat. I'll play in Paris at the SOS in 4 weeks and played 7 games on the mat and 4 (?) more on vassal in the past 2 months

Now I know what I won't bring (hatchet aces, and some republic variants), but I guess I'll default to Awings and wing it.

I'd love to give some imperial lists an actual try, but I don't have the time.

5 hours ago, wurms said:

Combine the DBM with concussion missiles. Splash some damage onto a swarm, and then a concussion missile can splash and flip all that damage up. Nasty for swarms and vultures.

Something like:

Inquisitor (35)
Passive Sensors (3)
Concussion Missiles (6)

Tomax Bren (36)
Crack Shot (1)
Diamond-Boron Missiles (6)

Lieutenant Sai (47)

“Whisper” (57)
Juke (7)
Total: 198

If Init 4 is high enough to get locks reliably against the targets you want to lock, maybe this is a spot for Lieutenant Kestal. Using the Focus to zap an opponent's green dice might work well, but I suppose Juke Whisper does something kind of similar. It's also frees up enough points to switch from an Inquisitor to Instinctive Aim Seventh Sister. Passive Sensors does the job, but Instinctive Aim opens up those lovely linked actions (when you can't just Locks manually).

However, Tomax does seem handy as a really cheap Init 5 ordnance ship, even if his pilot ability is nearly useless.

/

*e* I always liked the thought of following up a launched Proton Bomb with Concussion Missiles... DBM is more fuel for that fire... Time to go play with 2x Punisher lists.

*e*e*

• Grand Inquisitor (Fire Control System, Concussion Missiles) 60
• Deathrain (Trajectory Simulator, Concussion Missiles, Proton Bombs, Seismic Charges, [Skilled Bombardier?]) 68 [70?]
• Redline (Advanced Sensors, Diamond Boron Missiles) 68

Probably meh, but oh, this makes me laugh.

And your squad is certainly going to be better against the field...

Hyperspace Ramble:

Rebels:

• Leia Beef ( Now featuring Biggs! )
• Lean Beef ( No Leia No Problem )
• Some Lando or Han List ( Good Pilot Abilities are Still Good )

Empire:

• Howl/Iden Tie Swarm ( 2x Copies of Swarm Tactics, you cant take the i5 and i4 from me )
• 0-13 pt Bid Trip i5+ Empire ( Now featuring fewer shield upgrades )
• Sense Vader Garbage
• 5x i5 Empire
• Some Decimator List ( Probably involving a Force Crew/Gunner and Death Troopers )
• 5 Striker + Wampa ( I refuse to admit this list is bad )

First Order

• Kylo/Tavson+
• Tavson + 3 Not Silencers
• Kylo/Quickdraw/Midnight
• Generic SF Spam
• Not you , your the worst
• Electronic Baffle, neat.

Resistance

• AAAAA
• Quad I5 Resistance
• Quad T70s
• YT1300s with giant piles of stress tokens
• Regen Stress Free Poe Holdo Memes
• I have no idea what im doing this faction is weird....
• 24 Upgrades thrown into a glue stew

Republic

• Arc Torrent Beef Stew
• Obi/Mace+ (Oli, Plo, Padme, etc. )
• Obi + Arcs ( Coolest Jedi List by far )
• A billion point Anakin ( This is fine )
• Some unholy super tank N1 + Padme list
• Juke Torp Passive Phantom Menace Anakin
• Sense Garbage

Separatists

• Sadness
• A genuinely "fine" Hyena Ordinance List
• More Ochos making cut and losing

Scum

• Quad Fangs
• Boba's Revenge
• Fenn/Guri+ ( Fang, Z95s, etc. )
• Fenn/OldT+ ( Han, etc. )

51 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Separatists

• Sadness
• A genuinely "fine" Hyena Ordinance List
• More Ochos making cut and losing 

I just don't see how a faction that makes such wonderful things...could be bad?

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Separatist Alliance&d=v8ZhZ200Z305X116WWW229Y306X116W222WWY335XWWWW221WW216WY326XW224WWW237&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Look at this list, isn't it neat? Wouldn't you say its threat vector's complete...

2 hours ago, Ablazoned said:

What I'm saying is that i get why most players would, and should be risk-averse in a competitive context, while it seems like some people like to laugh at us for it. Maybe Grievous/O-66/Wat/404 is good but it'll take me more games to figure out than I have between now and the Cleveland Hyperspace Trial (I'm TOing not playing but hypothetically). If I spend all my time between now and then playing it only to find that any Sense Jedi will table me it's really feelsbad, especially if I only get to go to 1-2 hyperspace trials a year. So how would I not better off just practicing a known quantity like inferno squad, or a ruff on what used to be good like rebel tofu? Or take an old good squad that got buffed like obi+mace+whatever?

I don't know if anyone's laughing, I'm not, but some of us are shrugging and politely golf clapping when someone wins yet another Trial with rebel beef, not even remembering their names. If that makes the winner sad, they should gaze at their trophy and pile of schwag, content in their own sense of self-fulfillment, not even remembering the names of those who dismissed their victory.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Scum

• Quad Fangs
• Boba's Revenge and Fangs
• Fangs/Guri+ more fangs
• Fangs/Fangs/Fangs AND MORE FANGS

Fixed that for ya. Kind of sad really...

I'm legitimately concerned 4 passive+torp N1s is going to be degenerate for the game

It has some stiff weaknesses, but cheap (effectively) deadeye torp alpha is always spooky, and this version is on small bases that form boxes well, reposition well, and run away well after the initial engage, and their dial is very good (one straights! blue three banks!)

42 minutes ago, svelok said:

I'm legitimately concerned 4 passive+torp N1s is going to be degenerate for the game

It has some stiff weaknesses, but cheap (effectively) deadeye torp alpha is always spooky, and this version is on small bases that form boxes well, reposition well, and run away well after the initial engage, and their dial is very good (one straights! blue three banks!)

(Potentially) better than deadeye - if you nail range control and get full throttle, then you have an offensive and defensive mod.

49 minutes ago, svelok said:

I'm legitimately concerned 4 passive+torp N1s is going to be degenerate for the game

It has some stiff weaknesses, but cheap (effectively) deadeye torp alpha is always spooky, and this version is on small bases that form boxes well, reposition well, and run away well after the initial engage, and their dial is very good (one straights! blue three banks!)

If passive Torp n1s are good, passive Torp gunboats are better. Harder to kill in the opening engagement, harder to track down to finish off for points, great at setting up boxes, and can reload in case someone keeps not killing them.

23 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

If passive Torp n1s are good, passive Torp gunboats are better. Harder to kill in the opening engagement, harder to track down to finish off for points, great at setting up boxes, and can reload in case someone keeps not killing them.

If I have the exact opposite opinion on passive n1s vs gunboats does that mean they priced them well, or is one of us an idiot?

How much of this new chaos meta is good balance vs. lacking knowledge? Surely at some point the "best stuff" starts getting close enough together that it stops mattering much, right?

4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

If I have the exact opposite opinion on passive n1s vs gunboats does that mean they priced them well, or is one of us an idiot?

As they say, embrace the healing power of “and”

7 minutes ago, Brunas said:

How much of this new chaos meta is good balance vs. lacking knowledge? Surely at some point the "best stuff" starts getting close enough together that it stops mattering much, right?

There are too many degrees of freedom in the game to answer the first question, I think, especially once you account for the chance that suboptimal play in the field has a non-trivial ability to wreck your squad.

I agree to the second part in principal, no idea if there’s any consensus on when that actually is, though.

4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

If I have the exact opposite opinion on passive n1s vs gunboats does that mean they priced them well, or is one of us an idiot?

As they say, embrace the healing power of “and”

7 minutes ago, Brunas said:

How much of this new chaos meta is good balance vs. lacking knowledge? Surely at some point the "best stuff" starts getting close enough together that it stops mattering much, right?

There are too many degrees of freedom in the game to answer the first question, I think, especially once you account for the chance that suboptimal play in the field has a non-trivial ability to wreck your squad.

I agree to the second part in principal, no idea if there’s any consensus on when that actually is, though.

26 minutes ago, Brunas said:

If I have the exact opposite opinion on passive n1s vs gunboats does that mean they priced them well, or is one of us an idiot?

How much of this new chaos meta is good balance vs. lacking knowledge? Surely at some point the "best stuff" starts getting close enough together that it stops mattering much, right?

What do the N1s do better than a Gunboat, aside from Tallon Rolling?

49 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

If passive Torp n1s are good, passive Torp gunboats are better. Harder to kill in the opening engagement, harder to track down to finish off for points, great at setting up boxes, and can reload in case someone keeps not killing them.

4 of is fun, but in both cases, I think the answer is 3 + an ace. Offers a lot more answers to things with a good hammer and anvil approach.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

What do the N1s do better than a Gunboat, aside from Tallon Rolling?

Evading?

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

What do the N1s do better than a Gunboat, aside from Tallon Rolling?

Just now, Tlfj200 said:

Evading?

basically yeah, they're -1 hull if they die in a single turn, if they don't you're even. Anything past that you come out ahead. Don't really care for the talon roll honestly.

They can also natively get double mods or regen, but idk if either of those things are actually worth it. Basically I think I'd (barely) rather have the N1 if you gave me option.

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Evading?

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

basically yeah, they're -1 hull if they die in a single turn, if they don't you're even. Anything past that you come out ahead. Don't really care for the talon roll honestly.

They can also natively get double mods or regen, but idk if either of those things are actually worth it. Basically I think I'd (barely) rather have the N1 if you gave me option.

So if you get the free evade and the 3 speed moves was the right choice both times, you don't pull ahead until turn 3 of combat, which is basically putting you into the midgame. At that point, reload and SLAM seem way better to me than the conditional evade.

I guess when I see a low/mid initiative bruiser, initial performance is most important. The Gunboat has better initial performance. If you make it to midgame, and you have a lot of HP left and want to keep threatening, Gunboat can reload. If you need to preserve points, Gunboat can SLAM away. The N1 is better at tanking low numbers of shots over time, which I don't think is an especially useful strength in that kind of ship. It's nice if you have it, but it seems hard to give up the Gunboat advantages (HP, Reload, lower cost).

Power rankings for Extended:

#7 - Separatists because you can't convince me that anything is good

#6 - Scum because they have to start from scratch again

#5 - First Order, held up solely by Kylo and 2 Starkillers.

#4 - Resistance. Might actually be as low as #6 but Rey and all those new crew options is the wildcard for maybe is really good now especially with point drop.

#3 - Rebel. Sure, Beef took a 20 point hit to the dome but there were a lot of other good things waiting in the wings.

#2 - Republic. Passive mods are good apparently and with nearly every other faction getting hit way harder, the percentage of pilots in the faction that are competitive completely outstrips nearly everyone.

#1 - Empire. Quad Phantoms got nerfed pretty hard but Vader and Soontir only got sneezed on. Palp shuttles, high initiative aces, et cetera all exist. And for reference, Quad Phantoms got a 14 point nerf while average Rebel Beef got hit for 20 and so did Dreadloks. Imperial Bias!!!

@Boom Owl I agree with that list. Also from some discussions with scum players, more and more frequently the "+" in Fenn/Guri/+ is a bid. Not sure why, but 2 ship lists are on the rise

14 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Not sure why, but 2 ship lists are on the rise

Falling ship counts?