7 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

If the streamer had called a judge as soon as the mistake was discovered, it would have made way less problems 

Devil‘s advocate: how often does it happen that players can solve it by themselves? And how often does it happen that they need to get judges etc to retrace everything?

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Devil‘s advocate: how often does it happen that players can solve it by themselves? And how often does it happen that they need to get judges etc to retrace everything?

I'm not following, what are you devil advocating exactly?

Think of it more like a nature documentary where no one intervenes when a mongoose gets into a den of small badgers and gets eaten alive. Only, in this case, the damage deck is the mongoose, the players are the burrow and twitch chat are the small badgers.

7 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I'm not following, what are you devil advocating exactly?

Ah, yes, thanks, I forgot that part

Point is: maybe the amount of situations solved by players, where twitch chat would call for judges without need and conplicating things, is so much larger than those few situations where it would have been better to listen to twitch chat and call a judge immediately?

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Ah, yes, thanks, I forgot that part

Point is: maybe the amount of situations solved by players, where twitch chat would call for judges without need and conplicating things, is so much larger than those few situations where it would have been better to listen to twitch chat and call a judge immediately?

If a game state violation is fixed before it makes damage, what's the difference if it's fixed by a judge or by the players?

In my experience chat isn't nearly as bad and ravenous as the rep it gets. Maybe we're just blessed with the viewers we get but it also could be Becuase our stream will inform judges on major violations.

Two examples from the recent worlds were a ship that took a blinded pilot off of a bomb that couldn't deal crits and another ship that had forgotten a console fire. In each case players seemed appreciative.

You don't freak out and interrupt the game, but flag down a judge and let them make a call

4 minutes ago, Deathrevived91 said:

In my experience chat isn't nearly as bad and ravenous as the rep it gets. Maybe we're just blessed with the viewers we get but it also could be Becuase our stream will inform judges on major violations.

Two examples from the recent worlds were a ship that took a blinded pilot off of a bomb that couldn't deal crits and another ship that had forgotten a console fire. In each case players seemed appreciative.

You don't freak out and interrupt the game, but flag down a judge and let them make a call

Exactly this.

People seem to think that calling a Judge is a big thing while, most of the time, it's just fast and easy.

I mean, judges get called for the some really dumbshit, why are people making a fuss for calling one when it actually matters?

14 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

People seem to think that calling a Judge is a big thing while, most of the time, it's just fast and easy.

I don't think I've ever heard Dion claim that that's the reason why he doesn't do it.

31 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

If a game state violation is fixed before it makes damage, what's the difference if it's fixed by a judge or by the players?

See, I think that‘s the point of contention. Is there a difference between a situation fixed by players or judges?

We both think there isn‘t or shouldn‘t be.

But the argument can be made that player-solved cases make the individual games more casual and friendly, while judge-solved heats up the competitiveness. As such, the fewer judges are called the healthier for the game as a whole.

I think that concern has some truth to it.

43 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

See, I think that‘s the point of contention. Is there a difference between a situation fixed by players or judges?

We both think there isn‘t or shouldn‘t be.

But the argument can be made that player-solved cases make the individual games more casual and friendly, while judge-solved heats up the competitiveness. As such, the fewer judges are called the healthier for the game as a whole.

I think that concern has some truth to it.

Are judge calls really perceived so badly? I have called judges plenty of time and my opponents did the same. I often call a judge even after me and my opponent resolve something in our own, just to make my opponent extra sure that we did it by the books.

I think that kind of soft "judges distrust" (pass me the term, I can't fine a better one in english right now even if this one sounds harsher than what I wanted to express) came mostly by people whose only tournament experience is watching streams...

I mean, it's almost like judges are there to help players...

59 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

I don't think I've ever heard Dion claim that that's the reason why he doesn't do it.

As I said in the previous post, I'm not specifically arguing against streamer: I get that, especially in "official" tournament like Coruscant, they are scared of overstepping their boundaries and ruin every future streaming attempt.

I still think that's wrong, but at least I can get behind it, what I'm arguing against is the people who aren't streamers themselves and are agreeing that streamers shouldn't call a judge in case of game state violations. That gets me mad every time

1 hour ago, __underscore__ said:

I don't think I've ever heard Dion claim that that's the reason why he doesn't do it.

I mean isn't the reason being it is actually a rule violation? Didn't FFG rule that only people physically at the table were spectators and only spectators could call judges about broken game states/cheating/etc.? Maybe Dion double checked beforehand with FFG on how much he should interact during games? I remember this being a change over the summer.

4 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Are judge calls really perceived so badly? I have called judges plenty of time and my opponents did the same. I often call a judge even after me and my opponent resolve something in our own, just to make my opponent extra sure that we did it by the books.

Except for one time, every judge call I've been involved in has been either an arc/range check or a rules question. The one time when a combative player called a judge on me - on the bright side Chico was that judge.

7 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

I mean isn't the reason being it is actually a rule violation?

Maybe, but most of the reasoning seemed to be more about the player experience of being on stream and having a few hundred people online back seat referee your game. Most of it can all be filed under Community Management.

20 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

I mean isn't the reason being it is actually a rule violation? Didn't FFG rule that only people physically at the table were spectators and only spectators could call judges about broken game states/cheating/etc.? Maybe Dion double checked beforehand with FFG on how much he should interact during games? I remember this being a change over the summer.

Yeah it's definitely that and I'm mind blown by the whole dumbness of that.

"We'd rather have a game, in a top cut of a prestigious tournament, where the outcome is fouled by a mandatory trigger not executed because both players (in good faith mind you) forgot than allowing a streamer to point out the mistake to a judge"

wtf seriously?

16 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Maybe, but most of the reasoning seemed to be more about the player experience of being on stream and having a few hundred people online back seat referee your game. Most of it can all be filed under Community Management.

Make sure you message FFG and tell them that, since the FFG stream commentators corrected game states at least twice by notifying a judge...

spoiler - deal with it on stream or don’t go on stream.

6 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Yeah it's definitely that and I'm mind blown by the whole dumbness of that.

"We'd rather have a game, in a top cut of a prestigious tournament, where the outcome is fouled by a mandatory trigger not executed because both players (in good faith mind you) forgot than allowing a streamer to point out the mistake to a judge"

wtf seriously?

FFG has absolutely not ruled that the streamers themselves are not present - they are physically there and spectating a game, and this can absolutely call a judge.

8 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

because both players (in good faith mind you) forgot

... which is the best but not only case...

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Make sure you message FFG and tell them that, since the FFG stream commentators corrected game states at least twice by notifying a judge...

Right... which is why I don't think it's an issue with an FFG rule.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

... which is the best but not only case...

And no spectator (which weren’t allowed to be close to the table to see, except for the stream) called a judge.

i have called a judge for gamestate as a spectator in almost every worlds.

i have called a judge in my game when my opponent was unsure of an interaction: I explained the interaction, and he seemed unsure but said ‘okay’, and I called a judge telling him ‘fortunately there are judges, and you don’t have to take my word! I’d rather you be happy with the call than be upset later’

Look, I think at least part of the solution here is: if we, as players, do not like the interference rule of the stream, we refuse to be streamed.

I think I'm out on letting the streamers with this policy. It'll probably never matter, as I've been on stream like 4 times, and there are many to replace me. But that, and not watching are primarily my only options.

Also, if you give patreons, you should consider what's important to you.

http://starfightermafia.blogspot.com/2018/10/article-3-x-wing-basics-1-threat-maps.html

Shorter, with pictures.

Did Bio save the thread?

18 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Did Bio save the thread?

Looks like content is back on the menu boys!

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

http://starfightermafia.blogspot.com/2018/10/article-3-x-wing-basics-1-threat-maps.html

Shorter, with pictures.

Nice pics. Threat zones are a really important concept for flying against any ships that move after you. You want to create areas where the Ace has no good moves. Thoughtful threat zone creation can make it that it doesn't even matter what your opponent dials in.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

http://starfightermafia.blogspot.com/2018/10/article-3-x-wing-basics-1-threat-maps.html

Shorter, with pictures.

Fun read. Worth re-iterating how important it is to keep options open every turn. I think it might be the main thing that defines good X-Wing players?

Seems so obvious but it has taken awhile for the game to begin to slow down enough for me to be able approach it this way and see the table more clearly.

Its also why Supernatural Reflexes, Advanced Sensors, and any premovement abilities are so valuable.

40 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Fun read. Worth re-iterating how important it is to keep options open every turn. I think it might be the main thing that defines good X-Wing players?

Seems so obvious but it has taken awhile for the game to begin to slow down enough for me to be able approach it this way and see the table more clearly.

Its also why Supernatural Reflexes, Advanced Sensors, and any premovement abilities are so valuable.

You read Article 1!