Graver said:

I've heard of that Haarlock before on the forums, but where exactly is his name mentioned? I've never been able to find it.

Also, although that Haarlock was the first to hold the warrant, I don't really buy the explanation that he is the "first." Solomon was the first to explore the Calyx expanse and seems to behind a great deal. Throne, in the first adventure that the players meet the Haarlock Legacy it is on a planet perhaps named after him. I'd say Solomon's the first here.

numb3rc said:

Mordercai is mentioned in the Calaxian Timeline .

While the what the "first" and "last" are first in or last in is never defined, it, by how it's used, implies the originator of something and the ending of that thing. Thus it seems natural for it to be the originator of the Haarlock legacy and the ender of it as well. Erasmus easily fits the bill for the latter and since time manipulations are afoot, he might be able to fill the shoes of the former as well. Your solution is doable, though if it is to hold to it's pretense of being polar opposites, then then Last in such a case would have to be the last Haarlock to explore the Calyx expanse... and that just doesn't seem quite as awesome or epic ;-)

On a related note, I've recently finished going over TF and one thing struck me. In the discription of the Widower, it mentions that it was once a scion of the Haarlocks, a Haalcok himself until he crossed them or some such. He is tied to the Tyrant Star and is called a Widower as if that were the most important feature of this creature... what if the Widower were Erasmus after he "succeeded" in his mad venture to undo the past? What if the process of undoing time, stepping out of it, or going back in it changed him so horribly (much like those darn halo devices do) that he ended up becoming a beast who was quickly enslaved by his ancestors... just as he always had been and always will be...

Graver said:

And this is, IMHO, the exact reason that using time-travel, or the manipulation of time on such a scale, is always a bad idea.

Graver said:

Interesting thought It could be a manifestation of Haarlock 'trapped in time' or 'banished from time' or something. However, I don't think so. The Widower is a servant to the Haarlocks of some sorts and he rants and prophecies a lot about the Dark Traveller (i.e. Erasmus) returning and in that he is clearly referring to someone or something else.

The widow theme that keeps popping up in the Haarlock adventures has always puzzled me. Erasmus has slain his kinsmen, so of all people, HE should be the Widower (as in Widowmaker). Instead, he employs a lot of enigmatic, terrible creatures whose names revolve around the Widow theme: Widower, Gilded Widow etc.

he could always be ranting about himself, i.e. parallel versions of himself due to time travel that way haarlock will never really die there will always be another to take care of

I am entirely unsure quite how I cam to form this impression, but nonetheless it's here:

Solomon Haarlock got lost in time, somehow, doing something mental.

Solomon Haarlock is The Dark Traveller and it is him who is returning.

He's not quite the first, but he's coming back to 'inherit the legacy', albeit a ruined, shady, miserable legacy.

So, the question then is this: By which facts is this a ludicrous idea?

well the first major flaw i see is that Eramus isnt mentioned at all in your idea

Xisor said:

Well there is this thing going on with the Haarlocks about 'the last being the first' etc and we all know Erasmus somehow found a way to manipulate time. It's quite possible that he so mixed up time and his ancestry that in some way there is no distinction between him and Solomon anymore. It isn't entirely inplausible.

The Laughing God said:

Hmm ... true that. *sighs* Why do I feel the literary heresy of Chris Claremont here? I do SO hate time-manipulation in story-telling. It is the ultimate "cop out" to telling a compelling story, IMHO.

The Laughing God said:

How about this: Erasmus isn't the Dark Traveler. Perhaps it's Solomon. After all, his tomb is suspiciously lacking in is remains and that will work Solomon back into the mix of things.

Or perhaps it's anouther "version" of Erasmus -after all, if there's time manipulations going on here, then that's a definite possibility.

Say Erasmus goes and dose his Time Manipulation Thing. However, in doing such, he dose something in the "future" of the Calixis Sector which unleashes something, or otherwise causes the whole death and destruction thing to fallow in his wake (connected to Komus?) before he manages to go back in time to undo things. He or a part of his 4th dimensional continuance (no longer even remotely human) got stranded far back in time (before even Mordercia) only to be eventually found and enslaved by Solomon who, as per his namesake, managed to bind the Thing That Was Erasmus Back In Time anchoring him with the Steel Clock and enslaving the last Haarlock (who, due to going back in time was also the first) as a mere bestial servant and slave with a bitter hatred for all Haarlocks (and himself). Hell, as such a creature through the ages, he might be the one responsible for the darkening of the Haarlock blood and all the woes he sought to undo, just for added serendipity and the so-thereness of timetravel irony. Mad, tortured, not even human anymore, and not even Erasmus any longer, he really just wants to end his own twisted and tortured existence now (or by the time of TF) but also knows the time is soon at hand when he'll be returning to the Calixis Sector and doing that terrible thing or unleashing that power that should not be unleashed that he'd done before going back in time and getting trapped by Solomon. Perhaps he had also done something to himself (as the Widower) not knowing it was himself (as the dark Traveler) which, now as the Widower, he understands and is truly horrified/terrified and possibly wises to escape in death before tat time comes again. Time manipulation... ya...

Graver said:

How do we know his tomb is empty? Is that the tomb in House of Dust and Ash?

Graver said:

I like that!

The Laughing God said:

Yup, as far as I know, Solomons tomb has controlls to rais and lower a void shield and, inexplicably, hoards of Children of the Kingdom stuffed into it. Dosn't sound like there'd abe a lot of room left for the corps nor that such a tomb would be a very restful place for the dead ;-)

IIRC that Widower creature in Tattered Fates is described somewhere as having a protean form. I'm not a native speaker so I'm not too familiar with protean (and my dictionaries are not with me now) but doesn't it mean something old, out of time, primal? Something Lovecraft would dub antediluvian ?

The Laughing God said:

Actually, I believe it is referring to the following definitions:

1. readily assuming different forms or characters; extremely variable.

2. changeable in shape or form, as an amoeba.

Just my two cents.

Oh, that is quite possible too. Heck, there goes our lead

Regarding time travel: Ascension mentions "Ordo Chronos", an Inquisition faction specializing in investigating temporal anomalies, such as ships leaving the Warp before entering it.

Silas Marr's (HoDaA) people, perhaps?

Man, that is a tantalizing concept!

Remember, however, that it states that the Ordo Chronos was shut down though, it's no longer in existance.

Why was it shut down? Now that's the 40,000k throne gelt question.

MILLANDSON said:

It wasn't shut down, it simply vanished. Every inquisitor who was connected to it simply all disappeared at roughly the same time leaving no evidence as to what happened or where they went... or even much evidence that they had ever existed in the first place...

Inquisitor: You think it'll last forever. The people, and vehicles, and plascrete. But it won't. Then one day it's all gone. Even the sky. My planet's gone. It's dead. It burned, just like Scintilla. It's just rocks and dust. Before its time.
Acolyte: What happened?
Inquisitor: There was a war, and we lost.
Acolyte: A war with who?
<the Inquisitor doesn't answer, looks lost in thought.>
Acolyte: What about your people?
Inquisitor: I'm of the Ordo Chronos. I'm the last of the Ordo Chronos. They're all gone, I'm the only survivor. I'm left travelling on my own, 'cause there's no one else.

As long as one of the worlds in the Jericho Reach is called Kalliphrei (or they mention the Apocrypha of Skaro ), I'll be happy...

In answer to my own earlier queries, the end of "Damned Cities" and the prelude up for "Dead Stars" indicate it's all Erasmus, not Solomon. Simples!

sinisalo said:

Except that Ascension also mentions that the Ordo Chronos vanished without a trace...

Xisor said:

Why? what is Kalliphrei and the Apocrypha of Skaros?

Xisor said:

That does not technically have to mean that Erasmus and Solomon, the last and the first, cannot be one, merged in some unfathomable way through their manipulations of time. It's a popular theory on these boards.

The Laughing God said:

Say Kalliphrei out loud, and it sounds a lot like the place a certain Doctor was born And Skaros is where his pepper-pot shaped friends come from.

hmm, i guess its good i made time lord rules for DH, even if they were a bit broken i love this concept

great transition xisor, that would be amazing if it happened like that and its a great way to interpret the ordos

perhaps Haarlock hunted the ordos to extinction?

acolye: who is he?

inquisitor: he's one of us...

other slightly fruity acolyte: but i thought the ordos chronos were a peaceful ordos they never really interfered in the inquisition politics

inquisitor: they revived him for the war...

MILLANDSON said:

Sorry, doesn't ring a bell. I am from the Netherlands, so perhaps our references do not entirely match ... my guess would be: Dr Who?

Hasn't been that big over here.