i know, i remember it well i was just reiterating the point

Not a person who posts here often but who is very interested in the discussion you more lovecraftian minded folks have been able to piece together (well done indeed!) but it seems that the group here often references Eisenhorn as well but not Abnett's Ravenor for clues/info.

Something interesting from the ravenor books is the idea of the clockwork incunabula (Page 124, chapter 9)

First, it is bound to a metal, robotic shell (like a mechanical daemonhost?) . This could just be the Ravenor series' specific incanabula, however. Perhaps they can be bound in other fashions. The one in the series was the Brass Thief.

This does, however, make some interesting potential connections to the clockwork notions of Haarlock....

Second, it is a daemonic entity from the beginnings of Chaos- not aligned to any specific gods. Something that is a daemon and yet is not - something even older - from further back in time.

QUOTE ('Ravenor Returned @ page 149')
Something primaeval, an atavistic throwback to the pre-formed ages of Chaos...

QUOTE ('Ravenor Returned @ page 326')
The feral essence... the azoic daemon-spark... free from the ancient device that had bound it for so long. It vanished, never, I imagine, to be found or enslaved again.

I dunno if this impacts lines of thinking or draws together any more threads for y'all or not but it has been nattering in the back of my mind for a while.

Well if Haarlock managed to get his time travel he could have essentially started chaos back in the primeval times...oh my...what if...his...and i dare say this...the Emperor?!?! Oo...i mean it makes a wierd backwards sense sort of thing he could have essentially done it if he found out enough.

ThenDoctor said:

sorry, but ... what?

yeah laughing god i dont really remember where i was going with that...just forget the discrepancy, anyone have Dead Stars that will help the discussion

A quick note to say I'm ducking out of this topic 'til I have Dead Stars myself. It's strange, but I wan't to see the spoilers with my own eyes

I might still post a thought or two, but I confess I shan't be reading the previous replies (probably). On the upside, reading up on the Phaeonites, Ocularians and Ordo Chronos (all paragraph of 'em) didn't enlighten me...

Yes let's have the information of Dead Stars become part of this discussion!

I don't have the book yet, it seems to always have to take ages before it reaches the Old World ... but what is in there that sheds more light on the motives, objectives, and fate of Haarlock and his dark legacy?

I have only skim read it so I am just taking this from my speed read through last night but not much is really shed on the subject of Erasmus himself. What we know already is pretty much the nub of the matter. He went insane trying to find a way to turn back time to bring back his Wife and child. Dabbling in every proscribed activity you can imagine he still found no answers until he struck a deal with the Dusk Hag and entered the Blind Tesseract.

He left numerous agents on this side of reality as the portal can only be opened from one side, hence all his servants getting a bit agitated throughout the trilogy, I guess the inference being that they were getting ready to answer his summons. Whilst the Tyrant Star is used its nature is not explained (perhaps an ascended triliogy of adventures will deal with that subject matter). What returns through the portal (if the Acolytes allow him) isn't entirely Erasmus Haarlock anymore, but a twisted pale shadow of his former self, albeit very powerful. The adventure looks excellent, best one of the three, but its strengths lies in the setting and the different factions* racing to find the Blind Tesseract.

Apologies if i I have cocked that up, as i say based on my spead read through last night.

* Slight tangent but I plan to re-introduce Master Nonesuch as the leader of the Amaranthine syndicate. The Acolytes were slightly overawed by him in the HoDaA back when they were rank 4 Acolytes and although they struck an uneasy truce with him to ensure their escape they know full well how powerful he is.

One thing I'm wondering as a GM is why there was no option of letting a PC Scion of Haarlock get their grubby hands on the Haarlock Warrant. I'm tempted to have it get trapped in realspace as a result of the PCs efforts to destroy the Soul-trap.

Lucifer216 said:

I think that your idea is a logical step but that would turn the game from Dark Heresy to Rogue Trader.

Of course just because the scion gains the physical warrant it does not mean he (or she) inherits everything (that's left standing after the scenarios); there are other claimants and the whole thing is stuck in the slow grinding gears of the Courts; come back in a couple of centuries for an update

DW

It's a fair point, but given the insane amounts of gear that the Acolytes will have if they survive, I expect switching to Rogue Trader or going to Ascension are the only real options. They won't all have enough xp to Ascend after the adventure, but are all comfortably past the 5000xp mark needed to start Rogue Trader.

What I will say about Dead Stars is that to me, it doesn't give the PCs enough ambiguity to make them seriously doubt whether or not stopping Haarlock from returning is a good thing, particularly given the inertia built up over the previous three adventures (very loosely stop his agents at all costs or at the very least stop them from killing the PCs).

To all of you who have already read Dead Stars ... can you tell us if there's anything in there to shed light on the questions that this thread started with?

Is the Solomon-Erasmus enigma solved?

I have gleaned so far that the connection between Haarlock and the Tyrant Star is not really explained in the third book of the trilogy .. but is it elaborated upon?

Any new information on the nature of the Widower, the Gilded Widow, the Children of the Kingdom?

Can we make more now of that prophecy:"The black sun burns and he comes, riding its wake (...). At its passing the eye shall be snuffed out, the carrion lords thrown down, and the hungering ones torn from the outer dark.' ?

I'm so curious!

And one more: what is that picture on the cover of Dead Stars? Post of the soul trap ... or a chalice? Remember the quote of the first Haarlock that the Calixis sector is a 'wicked chalyce' or words of that manner?

The Laughing God said:

Don't know about connections of cover art, etc as I don't have the book, but chalices and cups will play a major part in the Calixis sector seeing as how Calixis is Latin for cup, chalice, or a vessel for drinking ;-)

I'm not sure I can give anyone any definitive answers to everything, having finally read the book. But I thought I'd chime in, as no one else is. I reasonably certain the book implies that the two entities known as Erasmus and Solomon Haarlock are sperate individuals(solomon is a distant relative of Erasmus).

There is a side box/bar on page 7 about the relationship between Erasmus and the Tyrant Star that is entitled: "The Final Truth". This is the penultimate "this is what's really going on" section. Now, the first sentence reads: "It's a trap. No, really..." From reading this section (which does not tell us what the Tyrants Star is, unfortunately.) It seems Erasmus long ago used a device (Blind Tesseract) to enable himself to travel into/though the tyrant star itself after setting in motion a series of clockwork events that drew his enemies into the same general location where he could destroy them and perhaps humanity after? It did go on to describe him as completely insane and the only thing that remained of his original self was his indominable will.

There are optional encounters later on, in which the characters have an oportunity to travel to the past, present and future. In one such encounter we meet Erasmus's wife and daughter. they are physically described, but it's more of a description of how they died. There are more little descriptions/insights into Haarlock sprinkled throughout. But nothing groundbreaking. His ship, "the Spear of Destiny" makes a dramatic appearance as well.

IMO I get the feeling that either a) There will be no true explanation of the Tyrant Star by FFG as they let G.M.'s utilize thier own theories. or b) they will create an epic Ascention level adventure that treats the Tyrant Star the same way FFG did for Haarlock in the Haarlock trilogy. Just a guess tho.

The nature of the widower is not mentioned in the book that I remember. and of course it's description in Tattered fates is very vague as you probably remember. Although, the fact that it reveals it's true face only when the Tyrant star appears, may reveal a connection to it in some way. No mention really of the guilded widow other than whats said in TF. Same goes with the utterly alien Children of the Kingdom.

And as for the prophecy? It does'nt point directly at connections but it seems more likely now, that the black sun refers to his return back through the Tyrant Star at the end of the adventure. And the carrion lords are very much the Slaughth, as it is descibed that the P.C.s actions/inactions bring about the Slaughth's dominion/enslavement/destruction of Sibellus and the Calixis Sector. The "hungering ones torn from the outer dark" could be the Twilight Stalkers that have enslaved Sinophia Magna in the future. They are described in the book as "Servants of the dark". But nothing more of thier true nature is discussed. So, yes, this seems to make more sense than before, which is satisfying. The stanza "At it's Passing the eye shall be snuffed out" is still a mystery. It could be inerpreted in many ways. Maybe a reference to Nostromo, Haarlock's navigator's third eye being snuffed out as his last duties are performed. Yeah, thats a stretch. Just an idea.

My interpretation of the cover came when I had all my Haarlock Legacy books together. I noticed that all the covers are actually one big picture! if you put them side by side with the chalice in the middle, it's as though the evil factions are vieing for controll of the Calixis Sector, symbolised by the chalice which is what the word "Calixis" means in latin or something. I thought that was kinda cool that FFG would make the covers peices to a puzzle like that!

Anyway, anybody else got any revelations from Dead Stars? Cause thats all I got.

Finally got the book, Leisure Games rules, thanks for the tip that someone here gave me

I think it's a great read, a fitting end to the trilogy, and Mara is a fascinating locale. What does struck me, however, is that Damned Cities is really the odd one out in the trilogy. Apart from the daemon's hint at the end of the adventure, it has absolutely no relevance to the Haarlock story. That is quite a shame.

Mithras said:

On p57 of Dead Stars is says that when Haarlock steps back into the world he raises his hand, forefinger and thumb in a circle, and puts it close to his face where his right eye would be.

I believe he paid the Dusk Hag with his eye when he had his council with her.

Mithras said:

That is brilliant! It really shows Heron Mask and what I think is the Daemon from Damned Cities (though he looks more like a daemon-host) eyeing the chalice i.e. the Calixis Sector. Look at how the wings of the draconic ornaments are repeated on the margins of Tattered Fates and Damned Cities!

I haven't finished reading Dead Stars yet, but one vitally important piece of information seems to be what the Hag told him (p8):

His family found the means [to travel in time, I guess] long ago but failed to understand what it was. At Tanis, his bloodline had even captured the memory of its radiance but remained ignorant of its truth and power, and by their misunderstood lore he had used its shadow and echo in his devices without understanding their full implications. His answer lay in that thing which mankind called Komus, the Tyrant Star.

This cute little piece of writing is purposefully vague (memory of radiance? its shadow and echo without being clear what 'it' refers to?), but the reference to Tanis is very intrigueing. What the hell really happened there? Radiance may refer to Komus, who shines black.

You may or may not remember a small transmission fragment (pg. 18, DotDG) found on ( of all places...) Dusk. ( Maybe around the same ship wreckage where the Hag lives! ) The fragment goes on to describe the cancelation of all Tithes from Tanis, long ago, due to complete population depletion. The word "Tenebrae" is found near the end. So... I'm assuming there may have been suvivors/witnesses (maybe from ST. Astrids Fall) who recorded the event in some way, who may have been part of the Haarlock lineage. Haarlock ( before losing his wife and Daughter) may have adopted some of the black sun imagery for himself without fully understanding what it meant. But it may have been the future Erasmus trying to eliminate his kin in the past by way of controlling Komus. I'm just trying to connect Tanis with the Hag section in Dead Stars. I could be dead wrong. But it seems to make sense...

That's interesting Mithras! I've finished the book and came up with these new riddles:

On p51 the future version of one of the acolyte has a black cylinder which contains a fine red dust. What the hell is that?

On p55 the Dusk Hag is cradling a narrow steel canister .. what is that? It should hold the price that Haarlock paid for his council with the hag. I am thinking his eye. Or perhaps his soul.

If I understand things correctly, [HEAVY SPOILERS] Haarlock created a machine, the Blind Tesseract, with which he could more or less control the time/space rupturing qualities of Mara in such a way to make time travel possible.But even travelling in time did not solve his problem: everything taken back from the future crumbled to dust and in the past he could change nothing. So his final resort was going to the Tyrant Star .."the only place that would end his desires ", the hag said. Mark her words: not solve anything, but end his desires!

And then he comes back, returns to the Blind Tesseract .. and then how would he go back to the present? Take one of the mirror doors? And then do what exactly? Does he somehow bring about the future the acolytes have seen a glimpse of?

I remember the Tyrant Star being described somewhere as 'a shadow out of time'... does this mean both Komus and Haarlock where 'out of time', in that great echoing place, the beyond, etc? Does anyone remember where that was written?

A very cool part is on p51 .. in the alternate future of Sinophia Magna there is the mark of a three-pronged bird's claw defacing the statues and signs of the Imperial creed. Flip open your DotG on p14 .. a description of a visitation of the Tyrant Star to Sinophia Magna: a bird mark appearing on the faces and bodies of the damned ....

Perhaps visitations of the Tyrant Star are, for those who whitness it, vissions of that dark other-future and the star is actualy from the future? It is in these visions of horror that the madness and sipare spring, for if that is the future, everything is for not?

What is the context in which the red dust is in?

It is held by a dead future self of one of the PCs - but no explanation is offered about its importance, other than in this future the Acolytes defeated Haarlock only to watch Calixis tear itself apart in factional in-fighting which the Slaugh take as an opportunity to move in.

Could the three pronged claw be either a link to the Crow Father or to a Greater Daemon of Tzeench perhaps?

*sighs and waits for the ascension level campaign to find out more* **** you FFG you are good

RedMike said:

Not the Crow Father, I reckon, that storyline is pretty closed off. But I do strongly suspect Tzeentch, yeah.

And indeed, FFG is very good at tossing little secrets and cross-references and hits here and there, takes a lot of work for folks like us to tie them all together in threads like this

The Laughing God said:

I agree that it is most likely not the Crow Father, but what do you mean that story line is closed off?

Getting back to the claw, so far, aside from DS, it has only appeared in a recounting of one mad mans visions during an unrecorded visitation of the Star on Sinophia. If the mark is indeed a rune of a power (such as a LoC) then the theory that one sees the dark future during the visitations, perhaps the now and the terrible future overlap for a bit, has a bit of weight to it. After all, if it is the mark of a creature that is not related to the Tyrant Star, then the Tyrant Star might just be showing what might/will be or, going back to an earlier phrase, a dark Shadow Out of Time (from the future) and when it comes, so dose that future... something like that.

Guys, the Haarlock's Legacy trilogy has finished!

Where are your insights, your conclusions, your suspicions, your answers to the many riddles? Surely we should reach something of a grand theory now, on these here boards?