Admittedly, my criticism is based on the "outrageous" things people mention on reddit and elsewhere, but it really sounds as if the Horus Heresy is its own universe, "with its own rules and logic"

Well, I'm just a reader without any insider knowledge (but I've read almost all HH books), and for me it's looks like they have had an idea: "Let's tell the story about how bad guys are not so bad and good guys are not so good". The problem is that you need a really good authors for such a goal, but the quantity of good authors in BL is something around 0.5 - and they failed. Anything written good introduces "its own rules and logic" and anything written bad is... just bad.

ADB pulled it off... to the point half the fanbase wonders if the guy has father issues, the way he writes the emperor.

He really turned angron from burmmaimkill* into a broken figure that's actualy making a good point about the great crusade being a form of conquest and slavery ("join us or die", isn't exactly a choise is it?)

* yes I know that's Kharn's line.

It wasn't "just" that. These Marine Chapters were created and some of them are still in existence; the Black Dragons, for example, were active in the Third War for Armageddon.

As such, I'd ask: what else could it be?

Unlike the Index Astartes, which was published in White Dwarf and written by the same team that design the codices.

If you can find that excerpt, feel free to post! I'm curious about the details.

I think it's mostly as described - the armour itself is part-buried and the wolf guard is bleeding profusely. I can't find a white dwarf issue number reference, but the article was called "Crux Terminators", and it was early 3rd edition.

Vulkan is a Loyalist, but apparently he is also a Perpetual; an idea I will almost certainly never warm up to

And it often depends on just how a feat is presented.

Well, I'm just a reader without any insider knowledge (but I've read almost all HH books), and for me it's looks like they have had an idea: "Let's tell the story about how bad guys are not so bad and good guys are not so good". The problem is that you need a really good authors for such a goal, but the quantity of good authors in BL is something around 0.5 - and they failed. Anything written good introduces "its own rules and logic" and anything written bad is... just bad.

And not all of the stories are attempting to explain or excuse the traitors.

Fulgrim, for example, is just a complete prick. All the time. And no story featuring him is in any way apologetic for this.

As far as I'm concerned, something analogous to Bile's enhanced marines, who are supposed to be faster, stronger, and more callously psychotic than their 'normal' brethren. Sons of antaeus, for example, are definitely larger and tougher than any normal marines, but no-one's claimed that they're not astartes. But to each their own.

That doesn't sound like something the Emperor has created before. But as you said, let's agree to disagree.

Like Graham Mcneil & Gav Thorpe.

Exactly -- though it's worth pointing out that individual authors may have ideas that are different from studio consensus, so the same writer may present two different versions of the same world, all depending on the standards they were beholden to.

It's the same with the Horus Heresy crew; Aaron Dembski-Bowden's own novels will differ from the portrayal he delivers when he writes HH stuff.

"My Lorgar isn’t Anthony Reynolds’s Lorgar. My Fabius Bile won’t be Jim Swallow’s Fabius Bile. My Logan Grimnar isn’t Bill King’s Logan Grimnar. And so on. I’m not bound by what they’ve done before, and they’re not bound by what I’ve done."

- ADB's blog

I think it's mostly as described - the armour itself is part-buried and the wolf guard is bleeding profusely. I can't find a white dwarf issue number reference, but the article was called "Crux Terminators", and it was early 3rd edition.

Perfect. Thanks for the clarification.

Just being a perpetual doesn't make him any less loyal - indeed he doesn't know what he is.

Ah, that was just in reference to Jargal's remark about Loyalist Primarchs showing more weaknesses.

I think a lot of that is relevant. Again, it's "where you draw the line", but regardless, I'm much happier with Angron bracing the few tonnes of leg for a moment whilst Sygalah takes it out (and the story making clear that he's losing) as opposed to 'lifting a titan', which I've seen it described as on forums quite a bit.

By laws of physics, lifting one of two legs involves about half the weight of the entire structure, and I think "a few tonnes" would be quite the understatement for a Titan, even a "small" one.

Lifting the entire Titan would be just as much hyperbole, and after hearing a more detailed account of the event, I'll be sure to remember it for the future, but it doesn't change the nature of my criticism. 400 tons or 200 tons (going by FW numbers) ... both is outrageous. But yeah, different lines.

Ah, that was just in reference to Jargal's remark about Loyalist Primarchs showing more weaknesses.

And with all this power Curze killed Vulkan hundred times, in one case with a fork.

And with all this power Curze killed Vulkan hundred times, in one case with a fork.

I hope it at least was a chainfork or a powerfork.

I hope it at least was a chainfork or a powerfork.

- I'll cut your heart out with a spoon!

- But why a spoon?

- Because it's dull, you twit! And it'll hurt more!

I hope it at least was a chainfork or a powerfork.

- I'll cut your heart out with a spoon!

- But why a spoon?

- Because it's dull, you twit! And it'll hurt more!

Proves that even with his fatalistic visions and callous attitude, Conrad Curze still gives a fork.

*ahem*

Master-Crafted Adamantine Sack of Power Doorknobs

I wonder if someone will recognize where this is from . . .

*ahem*

Master-Crafted Adamantine Sack of Power Doorknobs

I wonder if someone will recognize where this is from . . .

Diskworld?

Angry Marines !

http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Satchel

I hope it at least was a chainfork or a powerfork.

No. But this was essentially "tied up and repeatedly stabbed", not in a fair fight. And Vulkan does get his own back, sort of.

After all, it's still a hammer .

Angry Marines !

http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Satchel

yep!

I hope it at least was a chainfork or a powerfork.

No. But this was essentially "tied up and repeatedly stabbed", not in a fair fight. And Vulkan does get his own back, sort of.

After all, it's still a hammer .

Also, by the time they both end up on Ultramar, Nighthaunter is getting a bit freaked out by it...

Why. Wont. you. DIE?!!

I know Curze has some visual prowess, when it comes to the demise of others, and, I suppose himself, but it seems weird, but if he really did see the dark fates of all his brothers, save Fulgrim, he maybe should have seen that Vulkan, at least now, treats death the same way a comic book villain does (read: minor inconvenience), and if he, himself, can benefit from plot armor, of this magnitude (he knows he won't die, because he's seen how that will occur), it shouldn't maybe seem so strange for one of his fellow Primarchs to do something similar. It's also something similar that a player did, erroneously, in a game of Vampire: the Masquerade, where he argued he could take all kinds of stupid risk, safely, because he had Dark Fate, and knew what would eventually kill him; problem is, that Flaw specifically say "if nothing else kills you first, this will ; it's a Flaw, not a Merit. He walked through three deathtraps, with a poor GM, who didn't want to listen to his whining, before he finally got called on it, threw a fit, and walked out on the game. Neither here, nor there, one supposes, but I'd love to call Curze out on cheating. Also, if he saw everyone's fate, did he see Empy's? Even if he didn't know the particulars, one would think, with a being so powerful still needing one hundred Custodes bodyguards, wherever He went, Curze would warn his father something was coming. Oh well, they can change details about the Horus Heresy, all they want, and how some people behaved, who knew what, and all, but it won't ever change the events, so I guess it doesn't really matter.

Based on where this thread had gone, I'm also interested when we'll start talking about a returning Primarch, somehow hiding that truth from everyone, somehow getting himself placed as an Inquisitor; we haven't mentioned the Inq, or Callie-chan, in over a whole page of these. Fun to see where these things can wander, sometimes.

Well, there are a lot of rumours about who Cypher is or what he is trying to do ...

And yeah, longer thread do have a tendency to go way off-topic, but that's normal I think!

Because Kurze is one of those prescients who gets an unlabelled picture-book of the future, as opposed to a narrative dot-to-dot (like eldrad).

He knew he was going to be killed by an assassin sent by the Emperor. Just like he knew Lion El'Johnson was going to beg others to spare his life. In neither case did he know why, until the event arrived.

Based on where this thread had gone, I'm also interested when we'll start talking about a returning Primarch, somehow hiding that truth from everyone, somehow getting himself placed as an Inquisitor; we haven't mentioned the Inq, or Callie-chan, in over a whole page of these. Fun to see where these things can wander, sometimes.

Because I guess the Dark Heresy forums tend towards people who know odd bits of the background, and like to make connections and come up with theories. A lot of the people on the forums are GMs, too, who (if they have any pride in their 'work'), like to make sure their world-building is both as true to the setting and as logically consistant as possible - even when the two are sometimes mutually exclusive...

Odd scraps of background can be very useful especially when you've got a lore-wise RPG group - especially things they almost-sort-of-remember-why-the-bloody-hell-does-that-sound-so-familiar , because that's one of a GM's key tools in developing a sense of inexplicable mounting paranoia which helps set the atmosphere for a Dark Heresy campaign so well.

Well, there are a lot of rumours about who Cypher is or what he is trying to do ...

Well, he's definitely been found impersonating an inquisitor before. So that at least fits the topic.

I should think it's possible for an Inquisitor, or more likely an acolyte, to be insinuated into an assassin temple. There is an Ordo dedicated to watching them (Assassinorum?) and it's been stated that one of their preferred methods is to have 5th-column assassins under their thumb. So I could see an assassin revealing themselves as having been an Inquisitorial acolyte all along and perhaps rising to Inquisitor -- although, since we've seen almost nothing from the POV of an actual Temple Assassin, I'm not sure they'd be able to retain their qualities. Might depend on the temple. Eversors are kept quiescent at all times save when in battle, for example, so there wouldn't be much use for an acolyte that had gotten through the training - he could never sneak around or report any findings to his Inquisitor. The others, though...

Based on where this thread had gone, I'm also interested when we'll start talking about a returning Primarch, somehow hiding that truth from everyone, somehow getting himself placed as an Inquisitor; we haven't mentioned the Inq, or Callie-chan, in over a whole page of these. Fun to see where these things can wander, sometimes.

Well, there are a lot of rumours about who Cypher is or what he is trying to do ...

Hydra Dominatus!

Thought I'd get that in before Robin did! Given the crazy time displacement effects that the warp can cause, it could explain A LOT about Cypher's origins and why Johnson appointed him to his position... ( ex Paranoia player, so I always assume things are more complicated than they seem!)

There is an Ordo dedicated to watching them (Assassinorum?) and it's been stated that one of their preferred methods is to have 5th-column assassins under their thumb. So I could see an assassin revealing themselves as having been an Inquisitorial acolyte all along and perhaps rising to Inquisitor -- although, since we've seen almost nothing from the POV of an actual Temple Assassin, I'm not sure they'd be able to retain their qualities. Might depend on the temple.

Ordo Sicarius.

It's generally implied (from the Dark Heresy supplement featuring them, in fact) that it's done rather more openly; Inquisitorial acolytes are embedded, with the knowledge of everone involved in the assassinorium as team leaders, briefing officers, ship pilots, handlers and field technicians to assist operatives in their missions. It's an advanced speciality for pretty much any career (with bonuses varying - but usually combat-focused).

It's not impossible for an assassin to be a former inquisitorial acolyte, but - as noted - an eversor isn't going to be much use.

Based on where this thread had gone, I'm also interested when we'll start talking about a returning Primarch, somehow hiding that truth from everyone, somehow getting himself placed as an Inquisitor; we haven't mentioned the Inq, or Callie-chan, in over a whole page of these. Fun to see where these things can wander, sometimes.

Well, there are a lot of rumours about who Cypher is or what he is trying to do ...

Hydra Dominatus!

Thought I'd get that in before Robin did! Given the crazy time displacement effects that the warp can cause, it could explain A LOT about Cypher's origins and why Johnson appointed him to his position... ( ex Paranoia player, so I always assume things are more complicated than they seem!)

If you want some chaos + inquisition bff action people should read Ravenor vs Eisenhorn.

(Well perhaps except Lynata, the eccelsiarchy ends up doing kinda naughty things in that book. )

And how' are situations in Paranoia complicated? Everybody except you (and friend Computer ofcourse) is a filthy mutant commie traitor who needs a good dose of killing!

And how' are situations in Paranoia complicated? Everybody except you (and friend Computer ofcourse) is a filthy mutant commie traitor who needs a good dose of killing!

But you don't know that anyone except you is:

a) A mutant

b) A treacherous member of a secret society

c) Failing to fulfil their duty through deliberate choice rather than incompetence!

Or that friend Computer is even more confused than you are*, even though " Friend Computer is always right".

*were you assigned to the mission because Friend Computer thought you were the best clone for the job, because you're under suspicion as a traitor/mutant, because you're expendable, because of some plot by a secret society or Programmer, at random, or by mistake?

*were you assigned to the mission because Friend Computer thought you were the best clone for the job, because you're under suspicion as a traitor/mutant, because you're expendable, because of some plot by a secret society or Programmer, at random, or by mistake?

Yes.

if you think normal paranoia's bad, try playing High Programmers at some point. It can best be described as equal parts of Yes Minister and Despicable Me.

I think the party's best example of pro-active management so far is the "unscheduled fissile energy surplus" , which they managed to take credit for using to "reduce the levels of health-hazardous bacterial contamination in nearby INFRARED living complexes by nearly 100%"

It's generally implied (from the Dark Heresy supplement featuring them, in fact) that it's done rather more openly; Inquisitorial acolytes are embedded, with the knowledge of everone involved in the assassinorium as team leaders, briefing officers, ship pilots, handlers and field technicians to assist operatives in their missions. It's an advanced speciality for pretty much any career (with bonuses varying - but usually combat-focused).

Codex Assassins mentioned "moles" being planted by the Inquisition inserting its own agents as potential recruits, but prepared in a way that they divulge secret information during supervised hypno-therapy interrogation. This screening is by default conducted on all operatives, except that assassins are capable of suppressing vital info.

I've quoted some fluff on page 2, but given how the Ordo Sicarius was just brought up again in form of a question, I guess pointing it out wouldn't hurt.

(Well perhaps except Lynata, the eccelsiarchy ends up doing kinda naughty things in that book. )

Huh? The Ecclesiarchy doing naughty things is part of the Grim Darkness™ of the setting! I'd consider it rather boring if anything in the setting was just black and white rather than shades of grey, purely as a matter of realism.

It all just comes down to how it's being pulled off and explained. In short: reasonability.

*were you assigned to the mission because Friend Computer thought you were the best clone for the job, because you're under suspicion as a traitor/mutant, because you're expendable, because of some plot by a secret society or Programmer, at random, or by mistake?

Because I'm a troubleshooter, and the troubleshooters are the Computer's first, last and only* (thin red) line of defense against mutant/commie/traitors. The Computer sais so! Do you doub't the Computer, Axe-Span-Na?

Did you just imply the Computer makes mistakes? The Computer makes no mistake citizen! I think a trip to the nearest termination booth is in order for you. (makes sign of the church of christ computer programmer)

* only line of defense, except for Int-sec, Armed forces, Vulture squad, Teela-o and that one group you don't have enough security clearence to know about.

*were you assigned to the mission because Friend Computer thought you were the best clone for the job, because you're under suspicion as a traitor/mutant, because you're expendable, because of some plot by a secret society or Programmer, at random, or by mistake?

Yes.

if you think normal paranoia's bad, try playing High Programmers at some point. It can best be described as equal parts of Yes Minister and Despicable Me.

I think the party's best example of pro-active management so far is the "unscheduled fissile energy surplus" , which they managed to take credit for using to "reduce the levels of health-hazardous bacterial contamination in nearby INFRARED living complexes by nearly 100%"

Yes I haven't played as those yet but I totaly have not looked at the PDF for high programmers, I mean it's treason to look at GM stuff you have no security clearnce for and I'm no traitor, right?

Also: slight apology for derailing the thread (as usual)