Remember: 40k has no canon.

This is just one of the examples in how the sources may differ -- just like how in the Horus Heresy novels, Magnus never managed to deliver his warning, in direct contradiction to GW's own Index Astartes articles as printed in White Dwarf. Not to mention the whole business with the Primarch's power levels, or the silly Perpetuals.

The only thing that irks me at this point is that these novels and the deviating information contained within are more popular and thus more widely known than the original fluff by Games Workshop themselves ...

Remember: 40k has no canon.

This is just one of the examples in how the sources may differ -- just like how in the Horus Heresy novels, Magnus never managed to deliver his warning, in direct contradiction to GW's own Index Astartes articles as printed in White Dwarf. Not to mention the whole business with the Primarch's power levels, or the silly Perpetuals.

The only thing that irks me at this point is that these novels and the deviating information contained within are more popular and thus more widely known than the original fluff by Games Workshop themselves ...

I know, which is why I said "canon" in quotes. It was just a mater of what to call fluff printed by GW. In this case, I went with "canon" in quotes.

Edit: post above edited to remove the use of the word "canon"

How where the Primarchs described before the HH books? Remember, I started playing when they where 6 or 7 years into the series.

Also, what I quoted doesn't necessarily mean Keeler couldn't have played a role in the founding of the Temple of the Savior Emperor. She could have been in the background, while Fatidicus was the public head of the Temple.

I don't know why this is such a debate about who helped bring about the worship of the Emperor when the first draft of the Imperial Creed was penned by Lorgar anyway

I don't know why this is such a debate about who helped bring about the worship of the Emperor when the first draft of the Imperial Creed was penned by Lorgar anyway

Ah, the point Lynata would make is that that bit was added in the HH books, and was not part of the original fluff. So that is simply another contradiction between newer and older fluff.

Some people do not include the HH books in their interpretation of the 40K universe. At this point, I'm not entirely sure where I fall. *shrug*

I don't know why this is such a debate about who helped bring about the worship of the Emperor when the first draft of the Imperial Creed was penned by Lorgar anyway

As with most things in 40k, it's a simple matter of preferences. Some people may generally prefer a certain consistency, and are thus biased against contradictions by default. Other people may be convinced that not everything in the setting needs to go back to some Space Marine. And others more may simply not appreciate the supposedly "clever" idea of attaching a SURPRISE IT'S ACTUALLY HERESY label to the Ministorum -- even though it would have been a delicious twist ... had it actually been part of the setting since the beginning.

Any sort of change always brings the risk of altered portrayal, and sometimes, people just prefer the old to the new.

It's the same with Ollanius Pius in his original version, and the travesty those novels made out of him.

Some people do not include the HH books in their interpretation of the 40K universe. At this point, I'm not entirely sure where I fall. *shrug*

Only you can decide! Either is a valid interpretation of the setting. All I could recommend would be to do more research on what makes the various takes on the setting different, and then opt for what appeals to you the most. Maybe you can even borrow one or two of the novels to check for yourself?

The most obvious distinction is probably that the original fluff sounds a little more grounded in average sci-fi realism, whereas the HH novels take many of the various myths and legends at face value, effectively resulting in a superhero setting a la "Marvelhammer 40,000". If you like superhero comics, you might actually prefer this! On the other hand, if you'd be more interested in a gritty, low-key portrayal, you may wanna stick with GW. It's a bit like ... the difference between Star Wars and Aliens; both have their advantages, but they're very different kinds of storytelling.

Hum . . . if that's the case we may have an issue here . . . or not?

Technically the first Imperial holy book was written by Lorgar.

Congratulations! Your entire religion is based on the writings of the guy who started the Heresy. LOL!

Depending on wether you count the HH novels ofcourse. I like them a lot altough the later ones are getting a bit on my nerves. Unremembered Empire was good. But the Bangels have no buisness beeing there.

And I had to put up with a lot of emo Salamanders to get some Loli Daemonettes...

Remember: 40k has no canon.

This is just one of the examples in how the sources may differ -- just like how in the Horus Heresy novels, Magnus never managed to deliver his warning, in direct contradiction to GW's own Index Astartes articles as printed in White Dwarf. Not to mention the whole business with the Primarch's power levels, or the silly Perpetuals.

The only thing that irks me at this point is that these novels and the deviating information contained within are more popular and thus more widely known than the original fluff by Games Workshop themselves ...

I tought he did. He break in the webway, ends up in the Emperors Basment and tells the big E that Horus has gone rebel. And the emperor just goes, Yeah that's nice son. Bad news, but we could have handled that. Now you just broke something that was gonna deliver us the galaxy and even I can't fix that. Well done son. well done. and Magnus goes: "Oh. Crap."

What gets me in the later novels is A) the Bangels and Dangels being on Ultramar. (If Sanguinius managed to get back to Terra in time for the siege, what the unholy F was guilliman doing?) and B) Nighthaunter invoking his powers of plot armor: He flat out states that he's not meant to die there and now. Sanguinius goes "He's right you know." And the Lion just rolls with it? If it was me I'd put that to test.

Gaaah! Curze is suposed to be a primarch version of Batman and the Punisher, not Deadpool!

I tought he did. He break in the webway, ends up in the Emperors Basment and tells the big E that Horus has gone rebel.

Are you sure? The Lexicanum article claims he didn't manage to deliver his message because of the breaking bit, citing the HH novel "False Gods" as a source.

Granted, it's just a wiki, but then again, you are just one other poster too. And it does fit to the Emperor's portrayal in the HH novels which by the readers has been described as omnipotent and omniscient -- and obviously, this portrayal would conflict with an Emperor who ignores the warning provided by Magnus, as described in GW's Index Astartes series.

Nighthaunter invoking his powers of plot armor

Between Titan-flipping Primarchs and immortal Guardsmen, isn't that kind of the theme in those books?

Congratulations! Your entire religion is based on the writings of the guy who started the Heresy. LOL!

See, that's exactly how it comes across: "We know that for 30 years GW has said that the Creed was started by some religious Navy dude who wanted to play prophet ... but feth it, wouldn't it be cool if we just ignore that bit and mess with Ecclesiarchy fluff just for gaks and giggles? It's not like that faction has any fans, anyways."

I tought he did. He break in the webway, ends up in the Emperors Basment and tells the big E that Horus has gone rebel.

Are you sure? The Lexicanum article claims he didn't manage to deliver his message because of the breaking bit, citing the HH novel "False Gods" as a source.

Granted, it's just a wiki, but then again, you are just one other poster too. And it does fit to the Emperor's portrayal in the HH novels which by the readers has been described as omnipotent and omniscient -- and obviously, this portrayal would conflict with an Emperor who ignores the warning provided by Magnus, as described in GW's Index Astartes series.

Nighthaunter invoking his powers of plot armor

Between Titan-flipping Primarchs and immortal Guardsmen, isn't that kind of the theme in those books?

Congratulations! Your entire religion is based on the writings of the guy who started the Heresy. LOL!

See, that's exactly how it comes across: "We know that for 30 years GW has said that the Creed was started by some religious Navy dude who wanted to play prophet ... but feth it, wouldn't it be cool if we just ignore that bit and mess with Ecclesiarchy fluff just for gaks and giggles? It's not like that faction has any fans, anyways."

I'll have to look up the exact book, I think Prospero burns, but It's definatly a later novel , so might depend on the writer. I know Magnus couldn't just comunicate psychically with his dad. He had to go in person.

I'm with you on the "no to the perpetuals" bit, But Angron is just that awesome. (me and ADB say so! ) Plus there's a bit of fluff of a space wolf terminator, survivng getting stepped on by a titan (warhound?) His armor was in bad shape and his mood even worse. (effin OP wolves )

I like it, its very dark humour hypocarcy grimdark irony Alanis Morisette to have Lorgar as the writer of the imperium's 1st holy book. But I can immagine why that would upset people.

Oh the SOB/Ecclesiarchy has fans. Just no new minis. Hoyoooooooooo! Ok I'm sorry, that was bad of me. I know that's a sore spot for Sisters players. And I know the feeling: still waiting for new chaos dwarfs...

I know Magnus couldn't just comunicate psychically with his dad. He had to go in person.

Ah, in GW's Index Astartes, he just sent a psychic message from Prospero. The Emperor was just like "I don't believe you, you're just jealous!"

Oh the SOB/Ecclesiarchy has fans. Just no new minis. Hoyoooooooooo! Ok I'm sorry, that was bad of me. I know that's a sore spot for Sisters players. And I know the feeling: still waiting for new chaos dwarfs...

No worries, I've long since crossed over into the 5th Stage of Grief. I've just chosen to be cynical about it.

To quote another veteran:

"I don't play Sisters of Battle, I play Sisters of Bitter. They are almost like Sisters of Battle, but rather than using Acts of Faith, they use Acts of Spite : they infuse their weapons with all their resentment for being the most neglected army still present in the setting."

Better watch out for players who haven't yet spent a decade whining about it, tho!

Hum . . . if that's the case we may have an issue here . . . or not?

Not necessarily. Bear in mind the scale of the Imperium (and even Terra) and it's easy to have a huge cult 'hidden in the shadows' pre-Justinian Christianity style.

"Even before his internment in the Golden Throne, the Emperor was worshiped as a god by many members of the Imperium, especially on the more regressive planets rediscovered during the Great Crusade"

Many members of the Imperium can easily be millions or billions across the Imperium without it showing up in the general population. Equally, whilst we can assume the population of Monarchia had a fairly stern talking to, the earlier worlds conquered by Lorgar were probably still out there raising cathedrals if no-one specifically came to tell them to stop, and superstitious primitive worlds would have stayed superstitious and primitive no matter how many times iterators said 'there re no gods' because trying to explain that there are no gods but you've been sent by an immortal angel who's the son of an immortal leader who can see into your soul and reach across the stars with his mind to tell you to give atheism a try is a losing starting proposition no matter how good an orator you are....

"As is the way of such things, the stronger cults grew and prospered while the smaller, weaker ones faded away or where incorporated into the larger sects. Compromises of interpretation where found and slowly many cults became united. Although lots of worlds still had several different sects, other cults managed to spread beyond the surface of their planet, their servants traveling to other stars and worlds to spread their own version of the faith. The most successful of these was the Temple of the Savior Emperor"

There are definitely many separate splinter cults, even on Terra. What Euphrati Keeler is doing (for the first time) in Vow of Faith is putting them directly in touch with one another, presumably leading to the aforementioned amalgamation.

"The Temple of the Savior Emperor had a number of advantages over its theological rivals. For a start it was centered on Terra *sign of the Aquila*, the Imperial planet, the center point of the human race and the resting place of the Emperor himself. Secondly, its fanatical leader was originally a well-respected and highly decorated Imperial Guard officer who served in the defense of the Imperial Palace. He claimed he was sent instructions by the Emperor, who came to him in dreams and visions. His original name has long since passed from memory, but the officer renamed himself Fatidicus, which means 'Prophet' in one of the ancient Terran tongues. Fatidicus formed a massive following from the Imperial forces on Earth. From lowly scribes and clerks to Imperial Navy commanders and colonels of the Imperial Guard, the Temple of the Savior Emperor welcomed everybody."

No-one knows what's going to happen to Keeler between 'now' in the Heresy series and the siege of terra. It's quite likely she's going to go away (especially since Horus apparently knows what she's doing and wants her dead).

The foundation of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor is therefore quite possibly going to devolve on another - if I had to pick a character named already to be Fatidicus, I'd say there's a good chance it's Khalid Hassan; he's an Imperial Army Special Forces officer in the Audiobook The Sigilite, and heavily hinted to be one of the four non-astartes picked by Malcador to found the Inquisition. Of those four, we know from the cover of the Inquisitor rulebook that two, both male, approved heavily of and may have had a hand in the public and open deification of the Emperor after his enthronement (whilst the other two, Promeus - possibly Yasu Nagasena - and Morianna, were much more loyal to the Emperor and the 'truth' - Imperial or otherwise rather than the Imperium and political necessity and became the first Resurrectionist Inquisitors and ultimately the first Radicals).

"At the venerable age of 120, Fatidicus dies, but by now there were over a billion dedicated followers on Earth itself and countless servants throughout the Segmentum Solar."

Okay, but that may be over half a century into The Scouring, and as such not really relevant to the pre-heresy state. I would point out, though, that despite the Emperor's Children running off to do inappropriate things to civilians, 'over a billion' is still a pretty poor showing for a primus-grade hive world when tens of billions is the implied norm.

I don't know why this is such a debate about who helped bring about the worship of the Emperor when the first draft of the Imperial Creed was penned by Lorgar anyway

Lorgar may have been the most open and influential early Emperor-worshipper, but he wasn't the only one; as noted, cults of the Emperor probably started in a hundred different worlds with a hundred different individuals - he was just the most obvious and most gifted orator. Beside, when looking to make themselves official, his stuff was well-written.

The fact that Lorgar turned traitor later doesn't invalidate the words themselves - after all, the bits of the proto-codex mentioned in the Unremembered Empire sequence and Forge World horus heresy rulebooks makes it clear that a good third of the Codex Astartes is plagiarised from the writings of Perturabo and other traitor primarchs.

in the Horus Heresy novels, Magnus never managed to deliver his warning, in direct contradiction to GW's own Index Astartes articles as printed in White Dwarf.

I'll have to look up the exact book, I think Prospero burns, but It's definatly a later novel , so might depend on the writer. I know Magnus couldn't just comunicate psychically with his dad. He had to go in person.

Ah, in GW's Index Astartes, he just sent a psychic message from Prospero. The Emperor was just like "I don't believe you, you're just jealous!"

He does deliver it. It's just disregarded - as previously noted - largely because the Emperor is seriously hacked off with how much damage Magnus does on his arrival. Outcast Dead and Prospero Burns further explain this.

It's not just " you just broke something that was gonna deliver us the galaxy and even I can't fix that" - it's "you just turned the Dolmen Gate I was using to explore the webway into a daemon portal which is going to trap me and the bulk of the custodes and sisterhood down here fighting it and the psychic feedback from what you just did caused a huge amount of damage on terra generally - killing a huge proportion of the astropathicus".

You see - several times, in fact - in the series that Magnus can essentially send a psychic projection that's an astral 'self' which can talk, see, and interact (if not touch per se) the world around him. It's not a message in the way an astropathic message is. If it had been an astropathic message along the lines of "Dad. Horus is a traitor. Love you. Magnus. P.S. Told you psychic powers were cool !", then it wouldn't have got him in trouble (much) but it also would have been ignored. No-one - even Dorn, who was on Terra - could get into the dungeons to talk to the Emperor, so you couldn't have the magister astropathicus pass on a note, and no 'mere' astropathic message could penetrate the shields around the dungeons, so the Emperor wouldn't hear anything sent directly to him.

So Magnus decided to send a projection with sufficient force to punch through the shields, manifest and talk to his dad directly. The problem was, that (although he'd found out about the existence of the webway independently) his father had never told anyone what he was doing in the dungeons and he didn't realise what the shields were for - to keep stuff in, not to keep stuff out. Breaking them ripped a hole in the shielding around the imperial webway gate, letting in all manner of gribbly daemons, as well as causing a psychic feedback shock that did a hell of a lot of damage to terra (especially the psy-sensitive bits, like the Hollow Mountain of the Astronomican and the City of Sight of the Astropathicus), not to mention making it blatantly clear that he'd been messing with serious daemon-binding/blood magic sorcery, not just psychic powers.

Hence the Emperor was in no mood to listen, banished Magnus' astral self, and sent out orders for russ to bring Magnus to Terra in person(and Horus subsequently quietly modified said orders to a kill-mission that Russ - who'd was unaware anything was up, had a history of 'sanctioning' primarchs and hated Magnus personally - was only too happy to oblige with and not ask too many questions)

it does fit to the Emperor's portrayal in the HH novels which by the readers has been described as omnipotent and omniscient -- and obviously, this portrayal would conflict with an Emperor who ignores the warning provided by Magnus, as described in GW's Index Astartes series.

Outcast dead is quite good in this regard - since you get to see the Emperor talking to someone more-or-less candidly (which is a rarity) about the limits of prescience in a discussion not a million miles away from Paul Atriedes lament on it in Dune - firstly, whilst it's a useful tool, it gets clouded when two prescients are conspiring against one another, and secondly, if you accept seeing the future, you can only really do it by being locked into the future you see - and the future he sees is really, really crappy and he's desperately trying to avoid it. Whether it is the 41st millennium of 40k, or a worse one that he managed to dodge, we don't and probably will never know.

What gets me in the later novels is A) the Bangels and Dangels being on Ultramar.

How the Blood Angels get to Terra will be interesting to see and isn't yet clear. The Dark Angels have Tchukulatha (long story) to get them through the Ruinstorm (which is fair enough as it subsequently explains where they get a warp engine capable of moving the Rock).

Nighthaunter invoking his powers of plot armor: He flat out states that he's not meant to die there and now. Sanguinius goes "He's right you know." And the Lion just rolls with it? If it was me I'd put that to test.

It's a bit odd then (although they do try to kill him!) but there is a reason that's important in Angels of Caliban. The whole point of Imperium Secundus is that Gulliman, The Lion, and Sanguinius genuinely thing they're all that's left. Terra has gone silent, Baal has gone silent (ruinstorm), Caliban has gone silent (ruinstorm plus Luthor's secession), they know about the Istvaan massacre so believe there are no other loyal legions left, any attempt to pass through the storm results in a horrible death - they're just trying to protect the only human worlds left that aren't reduced to hell by the traitors.

Nighthaunter's visions are 'real' enough - Sanguinius - also being a prescient - knows they are. What matters is that the Lion realises later that if Nighthaunter's vision of being murdered by an assassin sent by the Emperor (a detail not mentioned initially) is real, the Emperor must be alive to send said assassin. Which means (a) he can't kill Kurze for fear of messing up that future, and (b) at the moment, the Emperor is probably alive. Which is his justification for pulling his forces out of defending Imperium Secundus in favour of what's probably mass suicide by jumping through the warp storms.

The Lexicanum article claims he didn't manage to deliver his message because of the breaking bit, citing the HH novel "False Gods" as a source

Then it's not been updated with respect to Outcast Dead and Prospero Burns, both later in the series, where you actually see the scene rather than simply Magnus complaining to Ahriman in the aftermath.

See, that's exactly how it comes across: "We know that for 30 years GW has said that the Creed was started by some religious Navy dude who wanted to play prophet ... but feth it, wouldn't it be cool if we just ignore that bit and mess with Ecclesiarchy fluff just for gaks and giggles? It's not like that faction has any fans, anyways."

Not even slightly - at least not to me. Lorgar was one of the twenty primary commanders of the crusade. Even assuming he moved at half the speed of everyone else (hence his dad complaining), one in forty imperial worlds were taken by forces reporting to him. Emperor-worshipping worlds, set up by the Word Bearers, will have been out there in plenty long before Fatidicus was even born. Nor is it a surprise that the primarch whose gift was being a supreme orator and who worshipped the emperor wrote down his beliefs, nor that said beliefs should end up being one of (not necessarily all of) the source materials for the eventual Imperial Faith.

None of this says Fatidicus can't be the first Ecclesiarch. Because the Temple of the Saviour Emperor as a genuine faction won't come out of the shadows pre-siege of terra, before which it's ultimately just a bunch of prayer groups with aquilla keychains muttering "the emperor protects" and trying not to get caught in a public place.

See, that's exactly how it comes across: "We know that for 30 years GW has said that the Creed was started by some religious Navy dude who wanted to play prophet ... but feth it, wouldn't it be cool if we just ignore that bit and mess with Ecclesiarchy fluff just for gaks and giggles? It's not like that faction has any fans, anyways."

Not even slightly - at least not to me. Lorgar was one of the twenty primary commanders of the crusade. Even assuming he moved at half the speed of everyone else (hence his dad complaining), one in forty imperial worlds were taken by forces reporting to him. Emperor-worshipping worlds, set up by the Word Bearers, will have been out there in plenty long before Fatidicus was even born. Nor is it a surprise that the primarch whose gift was being a supreme orator and who worshipped the emperor wrote down his beliefs, nor that said beliefs should end up being one of (not necessarily all of) the source materials for the eventual Imperial Faith.

None of this says Fatidicus can't be the first Ecclesiarch. Because the Temple of the Saviour Emperor as a genuine faction won't come out of the shadows pre-siege of terra, before which it's ultimately just a bunch of prayer groups with aquilla keychains muttering "the emperor protects" and trying not to get caught in a public place.

The issue isn't that Lorgar makes Fatidicus impossible, it's that now the central tenants of the Creed are from some book (which the HH books made up) that was penned by a traitor astartes, rather than just being a collection of doctrine and tradition from a bunch of different human groups.

And about Keeler, I agree that she could have been involved, no problem.

I know Magnus couldn't just comunicate psychically with his dad. He had to go in person.

Ah, in GW's Index Astartes, he just sent a psychic message from Prospero. The Emperor was just like "I don't believe you, you're just jealous!"

Oh the SOB/Ecclesiarchy has fans. Just no new minis. Hoyoooooooooo! Ok I'm sorry, that was bad of me. I know that's a sore spot for Sisters players. And I know the feeling: still waiting for new chaos dwarfs...

No worries, I've long since crossed over into the 5th Stage of Grief. I've just chosen to be cynical about it.

To quote another veteran:

"I don't play Sisters of Battle, I play Sisters of Bitter. They are almost like Sisters of Battle, but rather than using Acts of Faith, they use Acts of Spite : they infuse their weapons with all their resentment for being the most neglected army still present in the setting."

Better watch out for players who haven't yet spent a decade whining about it, tho!

Although I've only been playing Sisters for a year, I don't think I complain about an update (well, it's fun to make jokes about, but I feel that's different). I got into the faction with the expectation that an update was unlikely, and the Sisters players I've run into on the internet seem to be rather proud (in a joking way) not fall into the trap of the stereotypical chaos player (in a playful way).

Complaints or negativity (on the B&C SoB forum, where I have been) generally get the response that we must have faith, and some day the Emperor will provide, which I think is a great (and fun) way of thinking about it.

Not to say that there aren't whiny Sisters players (every faction has some of them, I'm sure)

I almost feel worse for chaos than I do for Sisters. It always feels like a real chaos update must be just around the corner, but it never seems to come (well, they got a bit of help last weekend, but I've already seen the disappointment and negativity of some players return).

The issue isn't that Lorgar makes Fatidicus impossible, it's that now the central tenants of the Creed are from some book (which the HH books made up) that was penned by a traitor astartes, rather than just being a collection of doctrine and tradition from a bunch of different human groups.

They still are from a bunch of different groups. Again, there are loads of different groups even just on Terra - Keeler has been moving around the orbital plates and Afrik enclaves for (in narrative time) at least a couple of years, and the point is that this lot already existed before she turned up; she's putting them in touch with one another, not founding them.

Part of their ultimate scripture is going to be the Lectitio, but as I say, why is that weird or wrong? Lorgar was Lorgar . Not a marine but a primarch. The Aurelian. One of the Gene-sons of the person these people are agreeing is a god. Essentially the greatest and most religion-obsessed orator and preacher of the era, and this has been true ever since the different legions were described way back when in Index Astartes. He was in the background as being out there preaching how =][= was divine since chronologically (in reality) before Codex Witchhunters was written, and chronologically (in universe) was doing it during the early crusade, over a century in-universe before the events described talking about Fatidicus and the Temple of the Saviour Emperor coming out of the shadows. It'd be frankly bizarre and inexplicable if the better parts of his works hadn't been picked up and used, but that doesn't have to mean the Ecclesiarchy uses nothing but Lorgar's writings.

I almost feel worse for chaos than I do for Sisters. It always feels like a real chaos update must be just around the corner, but it never seems to come (well, they got a bit of help last weekend, but I've already seen the disappointment and negativity of some players return).

Having seen variations on this in numerous editions, the problem with chaos marines is ultimately that they're marines. Because GW produces a Codex: Space Marines, and a Codex: This Marines and a Codex: That Marines and a Codex: The Other Marines, you can directly compare one to the other and one of those comparisons is (because of the inevitable creep in power) unflattering.

You saw this at the start of.....I wanna say 5th edition? The last thing produced was the 'new format' Dark Angels codex, and then along comes the Space Marines codex which has everything they have plus massive bonuses for free. Comparing Space Marines to Chaos Marines has historically been similar; go back to mid 3rd edition and it was the other way around; chaos marines got everything space marines got but could make their 'captain equivalent' into ludicrously godlike melee monsters who could destroy a marine captain without breaking a sweat (or frankly even breaking stride). Seeing one codex get an update (like drastically cutting the price of bikers, or making assault cannons heavy 4 rending, or storm shields 3++) can take years to disseminate into every codex which uses them.

Sisters of Battle are spared this because (a) their codex is distinct enough in play style (given, for example, a sister militant's complete ineptitude in melee compared to anything marine-esque) from marines that whilst it looks marine-like (bolters, rhinos, etc) players who know what they're doing enough to be upset by such things don't instinctively look at a marine book and compare, and (b) because, as noted, given the length of time since Codex Witchhunters, players have just gotten used to the fact that they're not getting a new release anytime soon, and rather take the occasional epub release or side mention in a campaign book as a pleasant treat rather than a "desperately needed fix".

I'm rather more of a fan of the way Forgeworld's done their Horus Heresy list, to be honest. All the legions use a core "legiones astartes" army list, with a couple of legion-specific bolt-ons (2-3 characters, 1-2 squad types, 1-2 special rules) - so that any time there's a fundamental update (they recently cut the price of assault squads rather drastically, after realising no-one used them because....well....they sucked) it instantly applies to every army using that core list.

I think I can see what you're saying. My HH fluff is pretty spotty as it is so Ill just take you at face value.

I agree with Lynata in that I'd rather the spotlight not be taken from the normal humans, but at the same time, I feel what you ah E suggested leaves the spotlight with the humans in an acceptable way.

As to the chaos thing, yeah I have the 3.5 codex. Such an interesting piece of rules design.

While I like the idea of a core SM list, that could get rather expensive, if I am forced to buy the rules for all the chapters, and, as a BA player, I'm more interested in getting to keep ALL of my unique units and options than I am in being 100% in line with C:SM. They could just release 1 C:SM, then a full supplement for each of the bagillion chapters, but do we really want that? I don't know.

And it's funny you should mention Sisters in assault, because it's something I'm still trying to make work (please please please I don't need a lecture about how the army is just bad at cc). Im still adjusting a year in after being a BA player obsessed with assault units.

Thanks for the thoughtful response!

Part of their ultimate scripture is going to be the Lectitio, but as I say, why is that weird or wrong?

If it were only that -- but it seems a significant portion of the fandom takes a perverse joy in pointing out this "Lectitio" started it, as if everything would go back to that point.

It's yet another area where the HH novels kind of shoot themselves in the foot. The Crusade fleet was a long, long way from Terra and in its mission of conquest moving ever further away, yet somehow these teachings are supposed to have found their way all the way back to the homeworld? Against the wishes of an Emperor who - or so these novels claim - actively outlawed and forbade any sort of religious worship (except the Cult Mechanicus, but that's another plot hole)? And without Imperial forces brutally suppressing his writings in the wake of his obvious treason during the Heresy?

It just comes across as rather ... constructed. Artificial.

It is my interpretation of the setting that the Imperial Cult originated on Terra as an independent development based on the teachings of Fatidicus -- and that IF any part of Lorgar's writing would have found their way into the Creed, it would have at best been minor snippets that were adopted by the Temple, along with hundreds or thousands of other cults that were gobbled up (or eradicated) when it expanded from Terra outwards.

That Lorgar preached the Emperor was a god is not something the HH novels added to the setting, after all; we've known this for decades. It is this weird new focus, this limelight that is put on his works that irks me. Like I said, as if someone actually thought that Marines weren't important enough in the material already.

On a sidenote, thanks for the details in regards to Magnus' warning! I keep hearing all sorts of different accounts (almost like GW intends for it to work, hah), but I trust you more than the guys on reddit.

It's still different to what the Index Astartes wrote, but not as much as Lexicanum claims.

I'm rather more of a fan of the way Forgeworld's done their Horus Heresy list, to be honest.

Agreed. In addition to a more encompassing, unified approach to Space Marines as a whole (possibly getting more fans interested in lesser known Chapters) and the avoidance of power creep, this would also free up design resources for the other armies. It always felt a bit meh when half the factions in the franchise have to wait years for an update, but every third book is another Marine codex.

And it's funny you should mention Sisters in assault, because it's something I'm still trying to make work

I keep saying GW ought to give Celestians storm shields and power swords.

But I guess Acts of Faith having been "streamlined" into hardcoded single-use perks actually hurts more. 3E Seraphim + Spirit of the Martyr ftw.

And it's funny you should mention Sisters in assault, because it's something I'm still trying to make work (please please please I don't need a lecture about how the army is just bad at cc). Im still adjusting a year in after being a BA player obsessed with assault units.

It wasn't meant as a criticism, and it's something they definitely can do even in their current rules.

I can attest from painful experience that Repentia are truly horrific (provided you accept they're not coming back!) - each two-attacks-with-rage model costing less points than the wargear entry for the chainfist they each carry! They die like flies but hit harder than assault terminators....And Celestians, Confessor's retinues (whatever theyre called these days) and so on are hardly bad (bloody crusaders led by Uriah Jacobus just WILL.NOT.FETHING.DIE. ); in my comment I only really meant the generic battle sister, who looks like a marine on paper but, whilst essentially a discount tactical marine in a firefight is essentially just a slightly better armoured guardsmen in an assault).

The Crusade fleet was a long, long way from Terra and in its mission of conquest moving ever further away, yet somehow these teachings are supposed to have found their way all the way back to the homeworld?

There's not just one 'crusade fleet', remember - one thing which makes massively more sense is the emphatic breaking up of the crusade into multiple "expeditionary fleets", which cycle back from the battle front to forgeworlds and the Imperial core and legion homeworlds (that's why, for example, Sor Talgron's Word Bearers were in Sol to be sent on to Istvaan). There was a regular flow of supply ships, personnel and major units back and forth.

And without Imperial forces brutally suppressing his writings in the wake of his obvious treason during the Heresy?

Except the writings are an eloquent argument for absolute loyalty to the emperor.....so...do we want to get rid of them or not? Plus, the bulk of copies you see during the books are in the hands of second-tier individuals (serfs, imperial army officers, etc) who probably don't realise the origin; they just know the content is eloquent and resonates with their beliefs.

It is my interpretation of the setting that the Imperial Cult originated on Terra as an independent development based on the teachings of Fatidicus -- and that IF any part of Lorgar's writing would have found their way into the Creed, it would have at best been minor snippets that were adopted by the Temple, along with hundreds or thousands of other cults that were gobbled up (or eradicated) when it expanded from Terra outwards.

As noted, to each their own view - see classic "there is no canon" quote. My only comment is that Fatidicus - whoever he ends up being - is someone who comes on the scene after the siege of terra (because part of his importance is having fought in it), and at least in some sense the worship of the Emperor appears to have existed before that; I'm not trying to say he's not important but that there's a distinction between the birth of a faith and the birth of an organised church - Fatidius was, in my view, Emperor Constantine, not Saint Peter.

Agreed. In addition to a more encompassing, unified approach to Space Marines as a whole (possibly getting more fans interested in lesser known Chapters) and the avoidance of power creep, this would also free up design resources for the other armies. It always felt a bit meh when half the factions in the franchise have to wait years for an update, but every third book is another Marine codex.

Well - in the case of the Horus Heresy, part of the point is that it is 80-90% space marine armies - that's kind of the point - but despite the common starting block with bolt-on approach, forgeworld do a very good job of making each legion feel different from the next, without using anything but the same core units and without resorting to werewolves or randomly declaring every item of wargear 10% better because they've put the prefix "blood-" in front of the name....

On a sidenote, thanks for the details in regards to Magnus' warning! I keep hearing all sorts of different accounts (almost like GW intends for it to work, hah), but I trust you more than the guys on reddit.

It's still different to what the Index Astartes wrote, but not as much as Lexicanum claims.

You're welcome.

Except the writings are an eloquent argument for absolute loyalty to the emperor.....so...do we want to get rid of them or not? Plus, the bulk of copies you see during the books are in the hands of second-tier individuals (serfs, imperial army officers, etc) who probably don't realise the origin; they just know the content is eloquent and resonates with their beliefs.

In context of the HH novels, these writings are also in direct violation of the Emperor's decrees, so I would certainly assume that loyalist forces would suppress them. That they were written by an arch-traitor is just icing on the heresy-cake.

What made the rise of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor believable was that it was led by a well-respected veteran with no connection to the Emperor's enemies, just a lot of useful contacts. In addition to the Emperor never having issued an "Imperial Truth" in GW's version of the narrative, of course.

I also would not think that someone like Lorgar would not put his name on his writings, and that consequently a lot of his books would be burned without ever reading them, just because they'd be classified as a traitor's work.

To me, there are just too many factors speaking against a notable influence by Lorgar's writings, so in addition to GW's own material not ever mentioning them as having had any sort of influence on the Ministorum's rise (2E codex SoB mentions thousands of cults all popping up independently all over the galaxy, without any outside help -- why must Terra be different, why must Lorgar be special?), my opinion stands.

But like you said, there is no canon. I guess I'm just salty because the incredible popularity of these novels has led to the current generation of 40k fans - the ones who dominate social media like reddit and the wikis - to be basing their interpretation of the setting entirely on these books, and quite often knowing very little about Games Workshop's own material. This shift, and indeed ignorance towards the original content, is a bit sad -- but maybe I'm just being a grognard because I do not like the many changes presented by this brave new world.

But like you said, there is no canon. I guess I'm just salty because the incredible popularity of these novels has led to the current generation of 40k fans - the ones who dominate social media like reddit and the wikis - to be basing their interpretation of the setting entirely on these books, and quite often knowing very little about Games Workshop's own material. This shift, and indeed ignorance towards the original content, is a bit sad -- but maybe I'm just being a grognard because I do not like the many changes presented by this brave new world.

Always in flux the background is. Especially regarding the heresy.In the (epic) space marine rulebook there's a bit of fluff about the Eisentsein and how it was seized by 70 loyal marines from all the traitor legions.(Wich just plays absolute havoc with the Istvan dropsite massacres continuty)

Why must Lorgar be special? Because he wasn't and he wanted to be, and now look where we're at 10.000 years later.

Actualy He might not have put his name on the LD, because of humility is a virtue and all that. Now when he went pro chaos that's a different matter: then it's the Book of Lorgar this, and litanies of Lorgar that (and dammit Erebus, quit hoggin' my spotlight!)

Actualy He might not have put his name on the LD, because of humility is a virtue and all that.

That does not sound very likely, given how his charisma and popularity are cited as major reasons for how he was able to convert so many people. He thrived on the idea of playing messiah, needed it so much that he switched sides when his chosen god disappointed him, and in addition to feeding his ego it may have also simply been a "strategic" choice to put his name on his documents simply to give them more weight -- knowing full well that the word of a Primarch and leader of one of the Emperor's elite Legions of Space Marines counts for something.

Which would also explain how the Imperium was able to collect and suppress this:

"Few records remain of the society that arose from the ashes of the Age of Strife, save those penned by Lorgar himself, and these are sealed in the deepest vaults of the Library Sanctus on Terra."

- WD #270: Index Astartes, The Word Bearers

Always in flux the background is. Especially regarding the heresy.In the (epic) space marine rulebook there's a bit of fluff about the Eisentsein and how it was seized by 70 loyal marines from all the traitor legions.(Wich just plays absolute havoc with the Istvan dropsite massacres continuty)

In fairness, one thing Black Library has gotten good at is picking up throwaway comments from the background - many of which are mutually contradictory, let's be fair, and weaving them in the background somewhere . After all, in the first first version of events, the Vengeful Spirit itself was a command bunker on terra, and there were no such thing as 'Primarchs' - Horus was a human General and Leman Russ was simply the founder of the Space Wolves and Imperial Commander of.....buggered if I can remember, but it sure wasn't Fenris.*

But they do read all the old background and reuse where they can stitch it in. So whilst the Eisenstein was moved to be a Death Guard only affair, several of the named survivors who are supposed to have been involved in stealing it have popped up elsewhere (having stolen other ships and escaped in the same timeframe, but not making it to terra as part of the 'initial warning'). Macer Varren of the World Eaters - now one of the main Knights Errant characters, is an example.

"Few records remain of the society that arose from the ashes of the Age of Strife, save those penned by Lorgar himself, and these are sealed in the deepest vaults of the Library Sanctus on Terra."

If that's referring to the histories of Colchis, then it's more fundamental than that; after all, Colchis was burned to cinders by the Imperium in the Scouring, and even before it got there, all traces (well, almost all traces thanks to Kor Phaeron!) of the 'old civilisation' were burned to ashes by Lorgar during his crusade in the name of his new One God (having visions of the Emperor prior to his arrival). Otherwise Colchis would have been destroyed by the Emperor the moment he saw who their temples were raised to (Making it two Primarch homeworlds - Colchis and Caliban - he should probably have blown up on sight).

At the same time, he would have recorded what happened in exacting detail. A lot of the better HH books (and there are bad ones!) are good at fleshing out the personalities of the primarchs, especially the traitors, beyond the one-line stereotype charicatures that the original GW design studio background assigned them. In Lorgar's case, the one thing driving him more than anything was truth - at least, the truth as he saw it (which admittedly isn't the same thing as absolute truth). The thing that pushed him over the edge wasn't so much the Emperor refusing to be worshipped or the 'hurry the feth up and get crusading' (although neither helped) it was a selection of things, explored in The First Heretic, Aurelian and Betrayer:

• He demanded the obedient devotion, rights and privileges of a god but essentially 'just didn't like the word'.
• He demanded faster expansion and more rapidly captured worlds but didn't really care what state they were in.....whilst using Gulliman (who along with Lorgar is actually one of the more human and compassionate primarchs) to 'show him up' was a fair example, some of the other Primarchs were much less useful - capturing worlds but leaving them in a burned, shattered wreck which nominally had an aquilla flag on them but were no fething use to anyone, whilst by the time the Word Bearers handed over a world it was a productive, loyal, and self-maintaining domain.
• He insisted there were no gods whilst - as Lorgar later discovered - lying through his teeth to everyone. This, ultimately, is the big one. It's not so much "well, if you're not going to play god, I'll find someone who will" - it's that trying to find out if gods are real or not, he peels back the carpet and finds a whole 'nother universe under there, and - understanding what's actually there - finds a better way for humanity. It sounds a bit wierd without explaining, but Lorgar's not really fighting for Horus, or for the Chaos Gods (hence his conversation with Magnus about hearing the Pantheon**), he's fighting for Argel Tal and his kin. A big part of the Word Bearers beliefs - which came up in the Word Bearers Trilogy several years before the Horus Heresy stuff ever started - is that the whole coexisting with the power of chaos - ultimately in the form of "blessed" possessed strong enough to establish a sort of symbiosis - is a way to ultimately provide humanity the strength to survive a universe which otherwise will sooner or later find a way to kill it.

It's in kind of the same way that Angron's primary characteristic (after breathtaking anger management issues) is honesty. Which didn't help given that (for example) Russ increasingly turns out to be a complete hypocrite.

* [Rustling of pages]....Here we go. The Rogue Trader rulebook biography of Leman Russ:

Born 2612016, M32, Guranta D Gurantan system. Commissioned Adeptus Terra as a special agent 0134041, M32. First rose to imperial notice during Lucan Crusade. Appointed Imperial Commander Lucan 033042, M32. Instrumental in founding Adeptus Astartes unit 4 'Spacewolves'. Suffered severe alviola damage during acid storms on Susa. Transplanted with model cybron-osmotic gill

Again - in terms of the 'throwaway comments', the BL team did say that they'll make sure to mention Susa and the acid storms somewhere in the Heresy series - just rolling it back chronologically...

** Lorgar: "I hear the whispers of the Gods in my ear."

Magnus: "I told you you shouldn't believe them."

Lorgar: "I said I could hear them. I never said I trusted them."

In fairness, one thing Black Library has gotten good at is picking up throwaway comments from the background - many of which are mutually contradictory, let's be fair, and weaving them in the background somewhere .

This is more of a mutual back-and-forth between GW and BL. Games Workshop has also adopted select things from Black Library novels into their codices, and continues to ignore other stuff. Just like Black Library adopts select things from GW fluff, and continues to ignore others (I'm sure you're aware of my gripe with the Cain novels, for example ).

But as a whole, I'd certainly say BL is more mutually contradictory, simply because when you're only looking at 2nd Edition and onward, after the setting had solidified, the codices were written by the same team of half a dozen people for decades. Though I'm sure it also helped that they were lazily using a lot of copy&paste, too. Even Matt Ward's Marine codices are 50% 2E fluff, with entire paragraphs ripped out of old material (which I only noticed as I was comparing the sources directly).

If that's referring to the histories of Colchis, then it's more fundamental than that; after all, Colchis was burned to cinders by the Imperium in the Scouring, and even before it got there, all traces (well, almost all traces thanks to Kor Phaeron!) of the 'old civilisation' were burned to ashes by Lorgar during his crusade in the name of his new One God (having visions of the Emperor prior to his arrival).

But as a whole, I'd certainly say BL is more mutually contradictory, simply because when you're only looking at 2nd Edition and onward, after the setting had solidified, the codices were written by the same team of half a dozen people for decades. Though I'm sure it also helped that they were lazily using a lot of copy&paste, too. Even Matt Ward's Marine codices are 50% 2E fluff, with entire paragraphs ripped out of old material (which I only noticed as I was comparing the sources directly)

That can be misleading, especially with the new 6th and 7th edition stuff. While a lot has been taken over, major retcons and glaring inconsistencies have flown pretty much under the radar and hidden within the fine text of numerous new codices.

Examples include:

>The hastily fixed notion that Knights were once logging equipment that got armor strapped on them from Codex: Imperial Knights

>The dying of the Golden Throne that the AdMech make a bargain with the Dark Eldar to fix from Cult Mechanicus,

>Tau using FTL drives instead of short-jump Warp Engines (which was subsequently changed back for no reason in Mont'Ka but w/e)

>Deathwatch no longer being part of the Inquisition (but still have the symbol bcs f*ck you)

>The Orks now winning the Octarian War and Ghazghkull getting involved

>The atrocities inflicted upon the Iron Hands in Clan Raukaan that pretty much killed the Chapter

>and last but certainly not least, the death of the Craftworld Eldar in the recent box set with Eldrad ripping each and every soul from every Infinity Circuit of every Craftworld and leaving them stranded and dead in the void

the so-called "GW Creative Team" is a bunch of people that have probably only read snippets of 2E lore and went from there, at least with BL (which I don't read, but I've heard some books are good) you have mostly people who care about what they're writing about.

>Deathwatch no longer being part of the Inquisition (but still have the symbol bcs f*ck you)

This one, to be fair, can be laid at the door of FFG rather than the design studio or BL. The deathwatch RPG was the point where the 'chamber militant' idea got largely shelved, to the bafflement &a annoyance of all the BL authors I've had the chance to talk to. Obviously someone at GW would have to sign off on it, but it did seem a retarded decision largely driven by a desire to keep the deathwatch as super awesome bad asses who answer to no-one rather than the sort of 'rainbow six/dirty dozen' they were in Their first well-fleshed out appearances.

Much in that list is news to me (except for the Tau, which have always been using non-Warp FTL as far as I'm aware). But then again, I'm not up to date on 7th Edition at all.

I did notice that consistency has suffered starting with some of the later books in 6E, such as the expansion of the Stormtroopers from a single regiment into hundreds (thousands), or how Saint Praxedes is now confirmed dead rather than being MIA, which was a lot cooler.

the so-called "GW Creative Team" is a bunch of people that have probably only read snippets of 2E lore and went from there, at least with BL (which I don't read, but I've heard some books are good) you have mostly people who care about what they're writing about.

I think the problem is that the current team isn't the same people as the ones who took care of the fluff for the past couple decades. Many of the oldschool designers such as Gav Thorpe, Andy Chambers and Andy Hoare have left; beyond Matt Ward I don't even know who is writing the stuff nowadays as GW no longer prints a writer's name on a book.

The Old Guard certainly loved the hobby and the setting they created; they'd often post additional material written on their own volition, and Andy Hoare even used to hang out at the ancient Yahoo! Battle Sisters group to talk with the fans. I'm sure this is also part of the reason some of them eventually ended up writing for Black Library or FFG. The old team felt like a bunch of friends who got together over a beer to create 1E Rogue Trader based on all the 80s pop culture references they considered cool in their youth, and then proceeded to turn it into a proper setting starting with 2E.

It may well be that studio consensus has shifted over the last few years because of a massive restructuring in its design team. I've already considered to just "lock" my headcanon's affiliation with studio fluff into 2E to early 6E just to avoid such unnecessary and unhelpful retcons.

This one, to be fair, can be laid at the door of FFG rather than the design studio or BL. The deathwatch RPG was the point where the 'chamber militant' idea got largely shelved, to the bafflement &a annoyance of all the BL authors I've had the chance to talk to. Obviously someone at GW would have to sign off on it, but it did seem a retarded decision largely driven by a desire to keep the deathwatch as super awesome bad asses who answer to no-one rather than the sort of 'rainbow six/dirty dozen' they were in Their first well-fleshed out appearances.

Does the new Codex Deathwatch really present it as an independent organisation? In the 6E rulebook it was still firmly under Inquisitorial control.

Yes it does. Not only are they independent, but the new Codex even mentions how they have a massive spy network that reports only to the Deathwatch itself scattered across the entire galaxy, even the Ordos themselves, and supplies them with all the information they need for their missions.

As for the Tau, in the 4e codex the fluff stated how they found an "ancient starship" on their moon or some nearby planet that had a Warp Drive which they reverse engineered to fit their own ships. The design was however only capable of short hops that skimmed the surface of the Warp, hence why the Tau are so slow (or were, now they are faster than the Imperium bcs... I don't know why.) And I can go on about the retcons that some factions have been subjected to... though the gist of it is that if there is any canon of 40k, GW does not care for it anymore.