(Well perhaps except Lynata, the eccelsiarchy ends up doing kinda naughty things in that book. )

Huh? The Ecclesiarchy doing naughty things is part of the Grim Darkness™ of the setting! I'd consider it rather boring if anything in the setting was just black and white rather than shades of grey, purely as a matter of realism.

It all just comes down to how it's being pulled off and explained. In short: reasonability.

That's my point: It goes way beyond 1st SOB codex or even what Vandire was up to, that was par for the course with the ecclesiarchy. No where I draw the line is at what they were doing in RvsE:

Yes I haven't played as those yet but I totaly have not looked at the PDF for high programmers, I mean it's treason to look at GM stuff you have no security clearnce for and I'm no traitor, right?

For a troubleshooter to be aware of the existence of any information relating to high programmers is evidence of treason. Please report for termination.

This is also my approach to players seeking FL(Inquisition) in any form, unless they have sufficient clearance

The Eccelsiarchy teamed up with the frikkin' WORD BEARERS! Who were learning them Nunctia: magic words that Abnett pulled out of his ass. But come on! The word bearers and the church of the emperor together! Gaaah! How did that alliance happen? "Hey,you guys worship the emperor? We used to do that to. say wanna learn some magic tricks?

Uh. Well.

On a more serious note, though, I suppose it really depends on the exact circumstances. I assume your novel is referring to some local Cardinal rather than "the Ecclesiarchy" as in the entire Adeptus Ministorum -- and just like in real life, a lot of the upper echelons of the clergy are somewhat corrupted by internal politics and power plays, using the assets under their control as a tool to maintain or expand their influence.

Then, of course, there are also the heretical cultist aspects, where that local group may have wandered off the sanctioned path. The Imperial Cult is not so much a unified canon but rather a messy amalgamation of local beliefs loosely strung together by lip service to the God-Emperor and acceptance of the Ecclesiarch as the one religious authority. With travel and interstellar communications in 40k not being very common, speedy and/or reliable, it occasionally happens that entire groups fall from grace and are excommunicated, their leader awaiting forced retirement by a Sororitas kill team or an Assassinorum operative. Worst case you get your holy war as the Ecclesiarchy mobilises its own forces and those of its allies as it declares a War of Faith on the wayward splinter group.

I've no idea how Abnett described the background (feel free to go into detail), but perhaps

Or that is how I would approach the topic. Emperor knows just how much thought Mr. Abnett put into this detail, if any.

Yes I haven't played as those yet but I totaly have not looked at the PDF for high programmers, I mean it's treason to look at GM stuff you have no security clearnce for and I'm no traitor, right?

For a troubleshooter to be aware of the existence of any information relating to high programmers is evidence of treason. Please report for termination.

This is also my approach to players seeking FL(Inquisition) in any form, unless they have sufficient clearance

Err I meant citizens of ultraviolet clearance? Maybe members of the Mystics secret society? No?

Ok I admit, I'm a traitor! Here, I'll surender! Take my laser and my grenade -whoops I just dropped the grenade. Not my fault, you see, the pin came off. I'll go report that malfunction to R&D, not reporting malfunctions is treason after all.

The Eccelsiarchy teamed up with the frikkin' WORD BEARERS! Who were learning them Nunctia: magic words that Abnett pulled out of his ass. But come on! The word bearers and the church of the emperor together! Gaaah! How did that alliance happen? "Hey,you guys worship the emperor? We used to do that to. say wanna learn some magic tricks?

Observation - that wasn't exactly 'the ecclesiarchy' assuming we're talking about Ravenor. The individual in question responsible for that was a Mk1 standard issue Lord Governor with a Corrupt Dark Secret ^TM (stores reference code TR/OP-E-001/Predicatable), whose Brutal Reign Of Terror ^TM and Nefarious Secret Police ^TM were doing things behind the backs of the Ecclesiarcy, the Inquisition, the Magistratum and basically everyone else. The fact that the place they chose to hold their Dark Ritual of Egregious Doom ^TM happened to be the cathedral and about a dozen minor chapels in specific co-ordinates (out of the hundreds you'd expect to see in a hive city) doesn't exactly mean that every member of the Ecclesiarchy on the world had signed on with the idea.

The Eccelsiarchy teamed up with the frikkin' WORD BEARERS! Who were learning them Nunctia: magic words that Abnett pulled out of his ass. But come on! The word bearers and the church of the emperor together! Gaaah! How did that alliance happen? "Hey,you guys worship the emperor? We used to do that to. say wanna learn some magic tricks?

Observation - that wasn't exactly 'the ecclesiarchy' assuming we're talking about Ravenor. The individual in question responsible for that was a Mk1 standard issue Lord Governor with a Corrupt Dark Secret ^TM (stores reference code TR/OP-E-001/Predicatable), whose Brutal Reign Of Terror ^TM and Nefarious Secret Police ^TM were doing things behind the backs of the Ecclesiarcy, the Inquisition, the Magistratum and basically everyone else. The fact that the place they chose to hold their Dark Ritual of Egregious Doom ^TM happened to be the cathedral and about a dozen minor chapels in specific co-ordinates (out of the hundreds you'd expect to see in a hive city) doesn't exactly mean that every member of the Ecclesiarchy on the world had signed on with the idea.

Ok, That's true. But even from a chaos point of view - and this probably just in my headcanon- but Word Bearers should just go: " Die false prophet of the false emperor !" *BLAM!* and not creep around in imperial cathedrals. Yes I get that they like corupting stuf, but still it kinda rankled with me.

And I get people in the ecclesiarchy can get corupted, but there's a difference between, "More statues of the Emperor! More! Better! Make it look alive! All hail Slaanesh errr The Emperor !' and teaming up with the Word Bearers! Of all the legions...

Why? After all, they're just as gifted at corrupting and persuading as everyone else. Word Bearers do go all heresy police (just with a very different definition of 'heresy') but they do cults and worship and oratorial skills just as well as anyone else. A Dark Apostle manipulating people from the shadows makes sense to me.

And as to why not team up, I doubt the cardinal put out a wanted ad "Arch-heretic who is the antithesis of every faith I hold dear wanted for light experimentation with blasphemous heresy. Must be good orator and have at least three visibly obvious mutations. Non-smoker preferred." - if you're going to have a chaos marine manipulating a churchman, someone who's spent 10,000 years as a religious orator, expounding two mutually antagonistic faiths, knows every strength, weakness, and grey area in the apologist arguments for both, and possibly actually saw the individuals you consider god and saintly demigods in the flesh seems like he's got a pretty good chance.

There's a reason they were noted in the lead-up to the 13th black crusade as being principal rivals to the Alpha Legion in the 41st millenium.

There's a reason they were noted in the lead-up to the 13th black crusade as being principal rivals to the Alpha Legion in the 41st millenium.

I tought that was becuz they both used cults/followers but the AL were secretly loyal/proving they could do it better.

especially as they keep on hinting to the emperor having made a deal with chaos...

And just like that I have even less reason to read the Horus Heresy novels.

WTF a deal with Chaos... Well that does kinda play to the idea that the the Big E is the 5th Chaos God

especially as they keep on hinting to the emperor having made a deal with chaos...

And just like that I have even less reason to read the Horus Heresy novels.

WTF a deal with Chaos... Well that does kinda play to the idea that the the Big E is the 5th Chaos God

WTF a deal with Chaos... Well that does kinda play to the idea that the the Big E is the 5th Chaos God

Eh, I don't see what one would have to do with the other. For one, this deal proposed by the novels' interpretation of the setting would have taken place long before either the Emperor's "ascension" on the Golden Throne or a hypothetical empowerment via the Warp-fueling emotions of his people. And secondly, Chaos Gods don't need to make deals with Chaos, they simply do , as they are the essence of the Warp.

But of course I am not entirely unbiased in my assessment either, given how I prefer a much less ... fantastical origin for the Primarchs.

Yeah, not a huge fan of the Emperor taking the power of Chaos to make the Primarchs, rather than just being realy realy good at genetic engineering. But I did think that what Horus did on Molech later on was pretty cool

Yeah, not a huge fan of the Emperor taking the power of Chaos to make the Primarchs, rather than just being realy realy good at genetic engineering. But I did think that what Horus did on Molech later on was pretty cool

he goes in to the warp portal, and (offscreen) basically builds a chaos empire in the warp and demands the patronage of all four chaos gods iirc. It soulds like it was somthing like centuries for him, but not that much time in realspace.

And he tells the first demon he meets there to "SHUT UP and take me to your leader." Guy had balls.

WTF a deal with Chaos... Well that does kinda play to the idea that the the Big E is the 5th Chaos God

Eh, I don't see what one would have to do with the other. For one, this deal proposed by the novels' interpretation of the setting would have taken place long before either the Emperor's "ascension" on the Golden Throne or a hypothetical empowerment via the Warp-fueling emotions of his people. And secondly, Chaos Gods don't need to make deals with Chaos, they simply do , as they are the essence of the Warp.

But of course I am not entirely unbiased in my assessment either, given how I prefer a much less ... fantastical origin for the Primarchs.

He's the chaos god of Trolling.