Callidus Assassin to Inquisitor?

By alemander, in Dark Heresy General Discussion

Ugh. Well, guess I'll just stick to earlier editions -- I care too much for consistency to adapt my interpretation all the time, especially when the Chamber Militant fluff is what I "grew up" with and am used to.

As for the Tau, turns out the 4E bit is not a contradiction: The BFG article for Tau Fleets goes into some more detail, explaining it as a consistent development that basically had the Tau use slow "gravitic drives" first, then experiment with a salvaged Warp engine (which they could only use to "dip" into the space between realspace and Immaterium), and finally they combined this engine with the existing gravitic drive to extend the time a ship can spend in this in-between, significantly increasing the range of their ships as they are now effectively "surfing" on the acceleration wave created by the transition.

[edit] added excerpt:

"Once unified by the Ethereal Caste the Tau made incredible technological progress. By M39 they had spread through the T'au system and ringed their homeworld with orbital research and manufacturing facilities. Further expansion required a drive system capable of spanning interstellar distances however and this proved to be a formidable barrier.
Tau vessels already used a form of gravitic drive. This projected a sheath of gravitic energy ahead of and around the vessel which was continually re-projected further ahead, drawing the ship behind it rather like an archaic sail. For two hundred tau'cyr the Water Caste grappled with the problem only for the breakthrough to be handed to them.
On the innermost of T'au seven's moons a routine geological survey discovered the remains of an alien vessel. The significance of the find did not disrupt Tau society as much as might have been expected. Tau theorists had long reasoned that other life forms existed and the verification helped confirm the belief that there was a greater destiny awaiting them. No Tau commented on the sheer good fortune of finding the technology that they so desperately needed on their doorstep just when they needed it.
The Tau were able to duplicate the warp drive of the alien ship but the initial test flights were disastrous. Achieving transition to the Warp required more than technology, it required psychically attuned minds and the Tau race boasted no psykers. Without them to guide the transition no amount of power could breach the dimensional barriers. The best the Tau could do was make a partial transition, forcing themselves into the void that separated Warpspace and real space before they were hurled out again like a ball held under water then released.
Data gathered at great cost during the test flights was studied closely. The Water caste scientists made the observation that the boundary between real space and warp space was not a neat line. It was closer to being a turbulent ocean fomented by the tempestuous warp tides below. By carefully angling their descent toward the Warp and extending the field generated by the gravitic drive into a wing, shaped to hold the vessel down a Tau vessel could extend the duration of the dive considerably. The speeds achieved in the ascent back to real space were staggering and this coupled with the effect of the Warp on time and space ensured that the real distance covered by the dive was immense. Early tests lost several drone ships because they inadvertently passed far beyond the sensor range of their recovery vessels.
The details were soon resolved. There was still a major constraint, only the most powerful (and bulky) drives could sustain the gravitic wing throughout the dive and the power drain meant that considerable recharge time was needed between dives. Also by comparison to actually navigating the warp the pace was still very slow. Taking typical Imperial Warp speeds the Tau drive was slower by a factor of five. The speed was consistent though, did not expose the Tau to the perils of the Warp and enabled the Tau to expand beyond their home star for the first time.
The first major class of Starships built were the ponderous Gal'leath (trans. Explorer). These leviathans laid the foundations for the Tau Empire and formed the basis of the Kor’vattra for its first wars with the Orks and the Niccassar. The Niccassar were less advanced than the Tau and after their speedy defeat were one of the first other races absorbed into the Empire. The Orks however posed a major problem. Their ships were faster, better shielded and more heavily armed. Against such a dangerous enemy the Gal'leath class was simply too expensive a resource to risk. Fortunately new, more compact gravitic drives led to the introduction of the smaller Il'fannor (trans. Merchant) class.
To counter the numerous Ork escorts the Tau developed their own Kass'l (trans. Orca) gunships. The Tau were slow to build a gravitc drive with sufficient power for Warp dives small enough to create an independent escort so the Kass'l would travel inside a larger vessels gravitic sheath over long distances, disengaging when back in normal space. This combined with the introduction of super-heavy ion cannons and barracuda fighters helped restore the balance, but it was the power and efficiency of the Tau shipyards that prevented the Empire from being devastated."
Edited by Lynata

This hurts my brain. I don't like the idea of ignoring massive chunks of GW/BL fluff, especially the huge HH series, but gah.

My thoughts:

Maybe the creed incorporates bits of Lorgars work, but I would think it is an amalgamation of various authors.

The chambers militant will always be a thing in my mind, but remember that the Sisters are primarily part of the Ecclesiarchy.

Mostly, I am basing my Sisters headcanon on the 2E and 3E Sisters codices, so anything that is in conflict with those books that I can't fudge to make fit will probably be ignored. Like that bit about Praxcedes being confirmed dead. Confirmed is a relative term in 40k anyway.

The design was however only capable of short hops that skimmed the surface of the Warp, hence why the Tau are so slow (or were, now they are faster than the Imperium bcs... I don't know why.)

The Tau aren't faster than the Imperium. Or at least, they are, but not in the way you think. A lot of people have been claiming this, but their 'speed advantage' is the one that matters least. I'm not a massive fan of the Tau suddenly having per-unit naval superiority, but I guess it was a sooner-or-later inevitability given that they're meant to advance whilst the Imperium regresses.

The original sort-of-warp-engine, the Ether Drive, was supposed to be developed into a 'proper' warp engine based on the research done at the observatory on Medusa V - which could observe a warp storm up close and let them finally understand the principles properly. They discovered that "observing a warp storm up close" was every bit as ****ing stupid and suicidal an activity as the Gue'La always maintained it to be, so they gave up on the idea.

The 'new tau codex' background talks about increases in speed being due to new reactor technology. But, it talks about the "the ZFR Horizon engine that allowed them to go to near-light speeds" - it's talking about sub-light tactical manouvrability (the equivalent of an Imperial Plasma Drive), not supra-light strategic manouvrability (warp jumps).

Maybe the creed incorporates bits of Lorgar's work, but I would think it is an amalgamation of various authors.

That's all I've ever been suggesting. I'm no more a fan than Lynata of the view that "It's all because Lorgar and no-one else" - you can explore and expand the role of Lorgar, Keeler, Sigismund and Garro in the foundation of the cult without elbowing out the lore that's previously been written.

The Old Guard certainly loved the hobby and the setting they created; they'd often post additional material written on their own volition, and Andy Hoare even used to hang out at the ancient Yahoo! Battle Sisters group to talk with the fans. I'm sure this is also part of the reason some of them eventually ended up writing for Black Library or FFG. The old team felt like a bunch of friends who got together over a beer to create 1E Rogue Trader based on all the 80s pop culture references they considered cool in their youth, and then proceeded to turn it into a proper setting starting with 2E.

Which is actually why I'll give you that on recent codices and similar (I find a lot of recent codices a bit bang! zap! kapow! this faction is the most awesomest evar!!11!!1), but am happy to consider the current Horus Heresy stuff (both Forgeworld and Black Library) as the view of the same team:

A lot of the people I think of as the aforementioned 'old guard' (Such as Gav Thorpe, Graham McNeill - who wrote Codex: Witchhunters - and William King) form the Black Library team co-operating on the Horus Heresy series - and I know from talking to them at events that they do regularly compare notes and track plotlines between material produced in different rulebooks, audiobooks and novels by different authors, and do go back through 'old stuff' to include things wherever they can.

Hence, as I say, I won't be in the least surprised to see things evolve into the background as written in the Sisters of Battle background pop up - you'll recognise the end point (Fatidicus and an officially-sanctioned-but-minority church), you just may not recognise the start points (Keeler & co in Vow of Faith ).

Edited by Magnus Grendel

A lot of the people I think of as the aforementioned 'old guard' (Such as Gav Thorpe, Graham McNeill - who wrote Codex: Witchhunters - and William King) form the Black Library team co-operating on the Horus Heresy series - and I know from talking to them at events that they do regularly compare notes and track plotlines between material produced in different rulebooks, audiobooks and novels by different authors, and do go back through 'old stuff' to include things wherever they can.

Yeah, from how ADB explained it, they're at least trying to coordinate as best as they can. It's probably more difficult keeping track than with GW, simply because it's more people churning out more text involving more detail. I doubt each of the series' authors truly reads every single book the other writes, simply because they'd be busy writing their own stuff. With codex fluff, it'd be easier, as they're all pulling the same previously written texts from a shared library and adding to them.

The HH novel team does seem to have a different consensus than the old GW team, too. Maybe it's because it's not all of the Old Guard, maybe it's because some of the new novel authors, or maybe because of some of sort of guideline from the editors, but they are taking those novels into a different direction than codex fluff did. It all feels more ... "supercharged", all Epic +1.

Whereas the old fluff used to make it rather obvious that most of the Primarch feats as described in the books were distorted by myth and legend, the new novels seem to take everything at face value whilst ignoring what would knock them down a peg. For example, does Horus still get almost killed by a random infantryman with a plasmagun? What about the Emperor almost being choked to death by an Ork warboss in spite of his supposed psychic omnipotence?

Studio fluff also seems to pointedly ignore certain HH inventions that, by now, should have found at least a short mention in GW's books, such as the Sisters of Silence.

"I’m aware of the general picture and the major characters involved, but that series is in essence a new universe, with its own rules and logic."

-- Gav Thorpe

Edited by Lynata

What about the Emperor almost being choked to death by an Ork warboss in spite of his supposed psychic omnipotence?

A Wolf Of Ash & Fire covers this. Urlak Urkk is (a) the biggest warboss the Imperium has ever seen - as you might imagine as the commander at Ullanor, the biggest ork empire the Imperium has ever fought (with the possible exception of the Beast's Waaaggh!) and (b) not stupid.

He's not the 40k warboss model choking the Emperor, he's a **** near knight titan-sized greenskin king kong 'choking' him by crushing him, with the Waaaggh! energy of a flobberty-bajillion greenskins running through his veins. The Emperor might or might not have been able to save himself before Horus intervened (but we'll never know, because he did).

Also, the Emperor's extreme super-awesome psychic potential has always had its limits - soul-flambee-ing Horus wasn't just "okay, I can't save you, I have to kill you" and he wasn't trying before, but to an extent was essentially a suicide pact; the Emperor sacrificed non-trivial bits of himself to do so (implied all the way back to the star child fluff), whilst the 'keeping the webway gate closed against an army of daemons" and "projecting the astronomican across the entire galaxy" both aren't the Emperor's unaugmented strength, but his strength plus the contributions of the Hollow Mountain.

For example, does Horus still get almost killed by a random infantryman with a plasmagun?

Not to date. The one time he faces 'normal' army troops I can think of is Molech, and whilst he gets his command transport shot out from under him and hurt, he's not seriously wounded. Several primarchs have been meaningfully 'almost killed' (as in 'seriously in danger of dying/not able to fight on' not 'and he narratively took another wound but shrugged it off and killed his foe because he's badass') - the list (that I can think of):

  • Horus - The Anathame (a daemon weapon wielded by a possessed)
  • Lorgar - The Bloodthirster Ann'grath
  • Lorgar (again!) - Titan plasma blastgun shot
  • Magnus - Pulsar (?) fire from Eldar titan
  • Magnus (again!) - Leman Russ
  • Mortarion - Sustained gatling fire from a flight of Fire Raptor Gunships
  • Sanguinius - The Bloodthirster Ka'Banda
  • Ferrus Manus - Fulgrim (obviously)
  • Vulkan - A nuclear warhead
  • Vulkan (again) - Konrad Kurze (repeatedly!)
  • Vulkan (again) - Unplanned Orbital Re-Entry

Studio fluff also seems to pointedly ignore certain HH inventions that, by now, should have found at least a short mention in GW's books, such as the Sisters of Silence.

Yes and no. One of the things that emphatically we've been told is that the Silent Sisterhood aren't just not mentioned in the newer 40k fluff, they're deliberately not mentioned because they're not around anymore and only the better-informed members of the Inquisitorial Ordos know that they ever existed.

It's not been stated why (but implied that it's going to be explained in the Beast Arises series), but they're not, and their role as security on the League Of Blackships is now performed by someone else.

I doubt each of the series' authors truly reads every single book the other writes, simply because they'd be busy writing their own stuff.

Which is why in addition to big team meetings (which are apparently a regular thing) they retain one person (Laurie Goulding) who does read everything and who's primary job is tracking continuity between the books and finding old statements relevant to a given setting to offer up to the writers for consideration. He writes the occasional short story (and is very good at it!) but is primarily a co-ordination and continuity man.

i've come across him at the HH weekender running the pub quiz events (fans verus "authors team 1" - thorpe, abnett & king versus "authors team 2" - Dempski bowden, swallow, mcneil).

Edited by Magnus Grendel

He's not the 40k warboss model choking the Emperor, he's a **** near knight titan-sized greenskin king kong 'choking' him by crushing him, with the Waaaggh! energy of a flobberty-bajillion greenskins running through his veins.

I'll be blunt: that sounds pretty stupid. Same as with Primarchs surviving nuclear explosions and titan guns. Makes me wonder just how they're going to explain Dorn's death on the bridge of a random Chaos cruiser, once it gets to that.

But I'm just too used to a different depiction of the setting that is at least somewhat more in line with my personal preferences for sci-fi in general.

Yes and no. One of the things that emphatically we've been told is that the Silent Sisterhood aren't just not mentioned in the newer 40k fluff, they're deliberately not mentioned because they're not around anymore and only the better-informed members of the Inquisitorial Ordos know that they ever existed.

But there's a lot of other stuff from earlier ages that doesn't exist anymore and whose knowledge is limited to only a handful of people, yet it still gets mentioned. From the records concerning the Horus Heresy as explained in the Index Astartes, to details of the Cursed Founding, to name just two examples.

Which is why in addition to big team meetings (which are apparently a regular thing) they retain one person (Laurie Goulding) who does read everything and who's primary job is tracking continuity between the books and finding old statements relevant to a given setting to offer up to the writers for consideration. He writes the occasional short story (and is very good at it!) but is primarily a co-ordination and continuity man.

That's pretty cool, and should at least lower the risk of contradictions considerably. I still hear about supposed conflicts between individual volumes on reddit and other forums, but it's hard to say how much of that is genuine, and how much is just readers misunderstanding/misremembering something or a novel intentionally uncovering the truth behind what was originally just a subjective description. Knowing the 40k fandom, I suspect it's mostly the latter.

Edited by Lynata
I'll be blunt: that sounds pretty stupid. Same as with Primarchs surviving nuclear explosions and titan guns.

The 'titan guns' thing, to be fair was probably a bit understated above - I should be clearer - don't see that as "I was shot with a titan gun and all I got was this nasty suntan." Lorgar didn't get hit directly by much of the blastgun shot - what primarily took the hit was a kineshield, which - despite being created by one of them most potent sorcerors in the imperium and hence probably in 'light void shield' territory - shattered like cheap crockery from a hit from a titan's gun, with enough bleed-through to smash his artificer armour, upper chest, and most of his left arm and face.

This would have been followed few seconds later by the primarch's death by being contemptuously stepped on, had Angron and Syrglah (a Legio Audax warhound) not intervened.

The 'recovery' was more akin to sorcery-forced haemonculus-style regrowing himself from beyond jason vorhees level burns, taking several weeks and a lot of agony.

And in Vulkan's specific case, he did get killed by the nuke. I know you don't like the whole perpetual thing, so I'm not going into the detail, but the short version of it was that he in no way 'survived'. He just subsequently happened not to be dead anymore.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

This would have been followed few seconds later by the primarch's death by being contemptuously stepped on, had Angron and Syrglah (a Legio Audax warhound) not intervened.

From what I hear, by Angron lifting that Titan (how many tons is that?) in the air...

He just subsequently happened not to be dead anymore.

Ah, I see. In a roundabout way, I suppose this actually makes it somewhat less silly. ;)

Apologies. As you can see, I'm just really not a fan of the idea of retroactively inserting "superpowers" into this particular setting in general. It undermines the idea that the average citizen's beliefs are based on nothing but superstition and propaganda, which in turn erodes the Grimdark.

Matter of taste, obviously.

Edited by Lynata

Maybe it's like when mothers get a super rush of adrenaline and lift cars off their babies.

Sure, but that's just because human bodies have an evolutionary built-in safety that locks our full potential to prevent us from injuring ourselves. Needless to say, there are still limits to what you can lift even then -- and you'd think Marine bodies come with these safeties permanently off as part of their creation process.

This would have been followed few seconds later by the primarch's death by being contemptuously stepped on, had Angron and Syrglah (a Legio Audax warhound) not intervened.

From what I hear, by Angron lifting that Titan (how many tons is that?) in the air...

He just subsequently happened not to be dead anymore.

Ah, I see. In a roundabout way, I suppose this actually makes it somewhat less silly. ;)

Apologies. As you can see, I'm just really not a fan of the idea of retroactively inserting "superpowers" into this particular setting in general. It undermines the idea that the average citizen's beliefs are based on nothing but superstition and propaganda, which in turn erodes the Grimdark.

Matter of taste, obviously.

It's not like he was lifting it up, it was slowly crushing him, and he was using all his strenght to keep both of them from getting squashed. Still **** impressive even for a primarch.

In Vengefull spirit, even Horus acknowledges that he "should be dead" (arc words) but at this point it's Obvious the Chaos gods are protecting him.

Oh man, Lynata, you are not gonna like any of the later books any better, especially as they keep on hinting to the emperor having made a deal with chaos...

Ugh Bloody Vulkan...and bloody Emperor to, why would you make only one of your sons immortal? I wonder if the Beast will properly finnish him off in the beast arises series...

especially as they keep on hinting to the emperor having made a deal with chaos...

And just like that I have even less reason to read the Horus Heresy novels.

It's not like he was lifting it up, it was slowly crushing him, and he was using all his strenght to keep both of them from getting squashed. Still **** impressive even for a primarch.

Indeed. Not picking up, or throwing, or whatever people on reddit are claiming; he was braced, hercules style, underneath one foot for a few seconds stopping it crushing Lorgar and buying long enough for Syrglah to get behind it with an ursus claw.

Ugh Bloody Vulkan...and bloody Emperor to, why would you make only one of your sons immortal? I wonder if the Beast will properly finnish him off in the beast arises series...

I'm not sure it was deliberate that he got it, much less that the others didn't. The primarchs each got different aspects of the Emperor's abilities (plus whatever else he stitched in). I'm not sure how much was deliberate division of gifts and how much was random. Not everyone got Curze and Sanguinius' prescience, or Magnus' psychic gifts, or Corax' pariah-esque qualities.

And just like that I have even less reason to read the Horus Heresy novels.

To be honest, this addition makes more sense to me. The primarchs aren't just science - or if they were, then the Emperor could and probably would have made more than just twenty of them. Yes, all right, 'magical accident that scattered them across the galaxy' but that, in and of itself, jumps out to me and says "there is some reason the warp had a connection to them in the first place" - if the chaos gods were just trying to sabotage the crusade, they'd have done far better preventing the astartes themselves, or the thunder warriors, from coming into existance en masse.

The primarchs aren't just science - or if they were, then the Emperor could and probably would have made more than just twenty of them.

On the other hand, why would he? The plan was for twenty legions, so he needs twenty leaders. Twenty is quite the number already, suggesting that a Primarch certainly isn't a unique achievement. The short story in White Dwarf #98 suggests further that the Primarchs and the Astartes are the brain-child of one Dr. Outek; the Emperor didn't even know what zygotes were and had to ask his lead-geneticist for these specifics. Likewise, the Index Astartes article on the Cursed Founding in WD #260 has a secretive coven of Inquisition and AdMech personnel actually create a new Primarch, it just so happens that the one surviving specimen got stolen by Fabius Bile.

Though even if the Primarchs were "magic", I don't see why there should have been some sort of limitation on their creation. Not to mention that any inherent psychic potential as explanation for their abilities would make all Primarchs psykers, to which I just don't see much of a basis in any fluff preceding these new Black Library novels.

And as for the "magical accident that scattered them across the galaxy", GW has always been quite vague about what actually happened, with the only line describing this event as suggesting the hand of Chaos. Which could just as well mean an infiltration job similar to what Fabius Bile has pulled off, with Tzeentch remotely influencing a powerful pawn close to the Primarch project.

If, of course, Chaos actually had anything to do with this at all, and this isn't just revisionist propaganda glossing over a more mundane explanation, such as a rebel group resisting the Emperor's hold on Terra blasting their way into the lab and stealing the clones.

Notably, GW's Index Astartes clearly mentions the Primarchs crashing on the various planets they'd come to call home in something described as a "stasis pod", which doesn't sound very magical to me.

---

The visitors waited in the elevator capsule whilst hidden pumps silently adjusted the temperature, humidity and pressure. When the doors opened there would be no sudden draught. No breeze to alter the constant thirty-one point seven degrees in the subterranean vault. In laboratory nine, the most stable environment on earth, chance had long since been eradicated.
Inside the laboratory, Dr. Devam Outek and his staff shuffled nervously as machines made final miniscule adjustments to the capsule's oxygen content. In a moment they would be in the presence of the man who had planned and guided their work through five generations of human endeavour. The visitors, sealed in their pristine suits, barely heard the doors move aside to reveal the shadowy world of red and yellow light. The technicians and scientists bowed as their visitors stepped from the lift.
"My emperor", intoned Dr. Outek.
"Dr. Outek. Phase nineteen is complete?"
The scientist straightened stiffly. "Oh yes", he said, "a pretty baby... Very pretty indeed."
[...]
"...And here", continued Outek, "we have five of the phase eleven zygotes. The eldest has now been functioning uninterrupted for fourteen years." The doctor gestured towards the row of glowing incubators containing several varieties of organic components in clear bubbling baths.
"You call the organs zygotes?"
"Yes - our geneticists create the single germ cell for each new organ. Every cell takes years of work as you know. At that stage we can store the cells indefinitely in the zero-room as gene-seed. Inside the incubator we can activate and control the growth process. The cell divides, multiplies, and eventually grows into a whole organ. Until the organ is ready for implant, we refer to it as a zygote."
The doctor led the party along the long row of glass cases, past incubators labelled with the names of the strange organs. He stopped before a large door emblazoned with the Imperial Eagle and the stark sign Security Zone One.
"Now", announced the doctor. "Now you'll see what all this flesh and gristle really amounts to!"
Edited by Lynata

On the other hand, why would he? The plan was for twenty legions, so he needs twenty leaders. Twenty is quite the number already, suggesting that a Primarch certainly isn't a unique achievement. The short story in White Dwarf #98 suggests further that the Primarchs and the Astartes are the brain-child of one Dr. Outek; the Emperor didn't even know what zygotes were and had to ask his lead-geneticist for these specifics.

Observation: The Emperor's discussion with Outek isn't necessarily about the Primarchs;given the discussion about growing 'gene-seed' and talking about implanting organs, it could just as easily be the astarte - which the Emperor definitely wasn't involved in the day-to-day creation of in the same way he was with the primarchs.

As to 'only twenty', the comment - in fact a musing by Horus himself in Horus Rising - is why not - if you could - an entire legion of primarchs; rather than merely as legion commanders; any argument for the primarch's skills as a legion commander could easily also apply to (using the example he gives) an expeditionary fleet commander, as they are essentially an independent command, albeit of only a few thousand astartes and hangers-on.

Likewise, the Index Astartes article on the Cursed Founding in WD #260 has a secretive coven of Inquisition and AdMech personnel actually create a new Primarch, it just so happens that the one surviving specimen got stolen by Fabius Bile.

Nowhere does that article say 'primarch' that I remember - the resulting individual could just as easily have been an 'enhanced marine', of the kind Bile has great fun producing and seeding throughout the imperium according to his army list entry.

Though even if the Primarchs were "magic", I don't see why there should have been some sort of limitation on their creation.

The short-hand (based on implications from False Gods, The First Heretic and Vengeful Spirit) is that the Primarchs are a product of both science and warpcraft. The warp-craft bit included some sort of power bargained for? tricked from? stolen from? the chaos gods (the exact circumstances aren't clear, but whatever it was, the warp gate on the Knight World of Molech was involved).

The science was exceptional biotech by the Emperor and his scientists, not a million miles from the thunder warriors.....actually no. Not a million miles from the custodes; the Thunder Warriors were normal humans with vat-grown implants (like the astartes) whilst the custodes were clone-grown themselves, grown with their implants already present (arguably grown around them). In the case of a primarch, it was like this, 'life form grown to order'.

Not to mention that any inherent psychic potential as explanation for their abilities would make all Primarchs psykers, to which I just don't see much of a basis in any fluff preceding these new Black Library novels.

They're definitely not all psykers. Some are psykers of moderate (lorgar) to impressive (magnus), some are psykers on an instinctual level but not much more (probably russ, definitely kurze & sanguinius), some are definitely not psykers in any way and if anything the reverse (Corax is....not exactly a pariah but something not a million miles different. Like whatever the Mhara Gal dreadnought is - I think "warp-cursed" is the forgeworld phrase?)

And as for the "magical accident that scattered them across the galaxy", GW has always been quite vague about what actually happened, with the only line describing this event as suggesting the hand of Chaos. Which could just as well mean an infiltration job similar to what Fabius Bile has pulled off, with Tzeentch remotely influencing a powerful pawn close to the Primarch project.

You get to see the 'magical accident' (ish) in False Gods. At least - the aftermath/scattering bit. You don't get to see why/how it happened until the First Heretic - and you're pretty close; the chaos gods have....let's just say "an agent" able to influence events there (very, very long story). Said agent destroys the protection around the primarch lab (there's a gellar field protecting it) and with the field gone, they are able to cause a (small, temporary) warp breach that lets chaos reach through and yell 'yoink!'.

If, of course, Chaos actually had anything to do with this at all, and this isn't just revisionist propaganda glossing over a more mundane explanation, such as a rebel group resisting the Emperor's hold on Terra blasting their way into the lab and stealing the clones.

And scattering them all over the galaxy? Including to worlds with no off-world contact that would take years to reach?

Notably, GW's Index Astartes clearly mentions the Primarchs crashing on the various planets they'd come to call home in something described as a "stasis pod", which doesn't sound very magical to me.

Again, magical doesn't mean "snap my fingers, click my heels three times, and there are twenty primarchs". There was a lab. Scientific equipment. Scientists. Etc, etc. Just because the chaos gods (willingly/wittingly or not) provided some of the power to do it, doesn't mean they did everything.

Each primarch was being grown in life support tanks which had a stasis function, and which is what got ripped out and stolen by the warp breach after the gellar field failed, what got dragged through the warp, and what crashed into Baal/Chemos/Macragge/Caliban/etc.

Without the scientists, there would be no primarchs. But without the spark of warp energy, they wouldn't have been primarchs either - custodes-analogues, but physically bigger, yes. But the fundamentally superhuman (as opposed to just post-human) capabilities, no.

Since you don't like the idea of superhuman-esque primarchs, I accept that argument kind of falls down, but thats why they are how they are, and what's needed for them to be what they are in said novels.

To be honest, it seems no worse -to me - than some of the old background describing the adeptus custodes (in collected visions), which had them killing off a hundred thousand orks in an hour in exchange for three casualties.

Custodes feature quite a bit in the heresy books, and are emphatically better than marines but not invincibly so in the novels - they always take out more than their weight of opponents but they do get killed when placed in impossible situations; three of them, for example, kill quite a lot (something like a dozen?) of the senior officers of the word bearers and assorted guards and flunkies, but get taken down before getting to Lorgar.

I do like the HH series and Beast Arises series - largely because they go a long way to trying to explain why people make wierd decisions. A good example in the Beast Arises series is Drakan Vangorich. From a one-paragraph comment about someone who basically woke up one morning and decided to murder absolutely everyone (a less bizzare idea for the Master of the Assassinorium than, say, a produce clerk, I guess), he becomes much more of a fleshed out character, and - having read the series - I can honestly say that in his place and seeing the people he has to deal with I'd be considering the pros and cons of decapitating the Imperial government en masse.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

Observation: The Emperor's discussion with Outek isn't necessarily about the Primarchs;given the discussion about growing 'gene-seed' and talking about implanting organs, it could just as easily be the astarte - which the Emperor definitely wasn't involved in the day-to-day creation of in the same way he was with the primarchs.

Well, Outek was mentioning a "pretty baby". Granted, he could have been talking metaphorically about a simple black carapace implant (given how the Emperor inquires about a phase nineteen) -- but in general I do not see much of a difference between the Space Marines and the Primarchs. Both are arguably the same "tech level" for the Imperium, given the time of their first installment.

As to 'only twenty', the comment - in fact a musing by Horus himself in Horus Rising - is why not - if you could - an entire legion of primarchs; rather than merely as legion commanders; any argument for the primarch's skills as a legion commander could easily also apply to (using the example he gives) an expeditionary fleet commander, as they are essentially an independent command, albeit of only a few thousand astartes and hangers-on.

The same reason as to why the Emperor established the Imperial Army from ordinary human soldiers rather than genetically enhanced Space Marines, whose role and importance grew over the Great Crusade the more Imperial forces scattered across the galaxy: time and resources.

It's far easier to draft a grown man and give him a lasgun than to turn him into a Space Marine. Likewise, it is far easier to take a teen and turn him into a Space Marine than to grow a new Primarch in a test tube on Earth. Perhaps the precision hinted at in the opening paragraph of the old piece of fluff quoted above simply could not be replicated on the front lines, and the Space Marines were the ideal compromise.

It obviously makes less sense in the context of the HH novels, where Primarchs are all but invulnerable to conventional weapons, but in a more grounded interpretation of the setting, spending decades on hand-crafting a single Primarch in some laboratory on Earth and then shipping them halfway across the galaxy just to have them get shot by some mook with a plasma gun doesn't sound very cost-efficient to me, not to mention that supply may be unable to keep up with demand.

Nowhere does that article say 'primarch' that I remember - the resulting individual could just as easily have been an 'enhanced marine', of the kind Bile has great fun producing and seeding throughout the imperium according to his army list entry.

I do believe the source strongly hints at it:

Log Entry No: 23
Project Homo Sapiens Novus continues to meet with further success and I believe that within the next few accelerated evolutionary iterations we may achieve ...... goal of recreating the [fragment destroyed] and imbue them with psychically attuned minds to resist the .................. of Chaos. That we may follow in the footsteps of our Glorious Emperor fills me with pride and that my name may be spoken of in the same breath is an honour I can scarce believe.

Sure, it says "fragment destroyed", but what other sort of soldier could they have "recreated" by "following in the footsteps" of the Emperor? Normal Space Marines? That wasn't the project's ultimate goal, and besides the Imperium is recreating normal Space Marines with every single Founding.

They're definitely not all psykers. Some are psykers of moderate (lorgar) to impressive (magnus), some are psykers on an instinctual level but not much more (probably russ, definitely kurze & sanguinius), some are definitely not psykers in any way and if anything the reverse (Corax is....not exactly a pariah but something not a million miles different. Like whatever the Mhara Gal dreadnought is - I think "warp-cursed" is the forgeworld phrase?)

Given how the feats they perform certainly seem above what should be realistically possible (such as the Titan bit discussed above), I would have expected some form of innate psychic power - effectively making them some sort of daemon or perhaps rather possessed - to be the only explanation. If, as you say, the Warp was necessary for their creation, then they must maintain some sort of link to the Immaterium. Otherwise I would regard this as a plot hole.

And scattering them all over the galaxy? Including to worlds with no off-world contact that would take years to reach?

Depending on what exactly happened, yes. Keep in mind that in the Warp - the preferred method of transportation even back then - time and distance have no meaning. All it'd take would be something like these hypothetical rebels escaping in a Warp-capable cutter (the likes of which sometimes mentioned in various Inquisition novels) and they could go literally anywhere. Or perhaps they just opened the airlock and jettisoned those pods into the Immaterium, believing they'd be forever lost.

Of course one could argue that the Chaos Gods still played a role, then, as they could affect the Empyrean and command where these pods would crash. On the other hand, it also opens up the theory of the Chaos Gods wanting those stasis pods to be found, in true Tzeentchian way foreseeing the entire Horus Heresy and just waiting for the Emperor to kick off the chain of events that would ultimately result in his death at the hands of his own creation. How's that for a twist?

I mean, if you look at it that way, if Chaos truly was involved at all, and wanted to hide the Primarchs, why not just hide them where Imperial forces could never go ... in the Warp itself? Or at the very least within the Eye of Terror? Don't you think it's awfully convenient how the Emperor just managed to collect them all in time as his crusade coincidentally passed those worlds? That an entity that exists in the Warp would try to hide something in realspace ? ;)

To be honest, it seems no worse -to me - than some of the old background describing the adeptus custodes (in collected visions), which had them killing off a hundred thousand orks in an hour in exchange for three casualties.

Isn't Collected Visions a part of Black Library's Horus Heresy series?

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I do like the HH series and Beast Arises series - largely because they go a long way to trying to explain why people make wierd decisions. A good example in the Beast Arises series is Drakan Vangorich. From a one-paragraph comment about someone who basically woke up one morning and decided to murder absolutely everyone (a less bizzare idea for the Master of the Assassinorium than, say, a produce clerk, I guess), he becomes much more of a fleshed out character, and - having read the series - I can honestly say that in his place and seeing the people he has to deal with I'd be considering the pros and cons of decapitating the Imperial government en masse.

Certainly, that's what novels do. I just wish these would do so without so much needless contradiction to earlier sources, and without such a huge impact on the atmosphere and narrative style of the entire setting -- although this is, of course, a very subjective matter, and many fans will have perceived 40k as more of a "superhero" thing even before the HH novels, just by taking various myths and legends (in Index Astartes specifically mentioned as oral tradition) at face value rather than reading between the lines and questioning the veracity of certain claims such as, say, Ferrus Manus supposedly carrying an entire mountain range across a body of water.

Edited by Lynata

That wasn't the project's ultimate goal, and besides the Imperium is recreating normal Space Marines with every single Founding.

No, it isn't. Well....it is, but not recreating them. It's founding new chapters using existing gene-seed, like taking a cutting from a plant, not creating new gene-seed lines. The cursed founding is infamous as an attempt to tamper with existing gene-seed and 'improve' it (for example, trying to cleanse the black rage/red thirst out of the Sanguinius line with the Lamenters). In each case, it went horribly wrong (black dragons, flame falcons, etc), taking varying amounts of time for them to realise.

Isn't Collected Visions a part of Black Library's Horus Heresy series?

Yes and no. It's been republished under the horus heresy imprint to include the Neil Roberts cover art (which is awesome) but the text (which has never been changed) and the bulk of the images dates back to when it was first published as an artbook alongside the sabretooth CCG well over a decade ago - more or less contemporary with the Index Astartes, in fact.

Given how the feats they perform certainly seem above what should be realistically possible (such as the Titan bit discussed above), I would have expected some form of innate psychic power - effectively making them some sort of daemon or perhaps rather possessed - to be the only explanation. If, as you say, the Warp was necessary for their creation, then they must maintain some sort of link to the Immaterium. Otherwise I would regard this as a plot hole.

As noted, they're not all "throw lightning bolt!" psykers. All of them having some inherent level of...I guess biomancy? Sounds about right. It would also link rather nicely into the (not at all plagiarised from Highlander) noticable energy discharge mentioned in when Ferrus Manus got his rather extreme haircut from Fulgrim.

Depending on what exactly happened, yes. Keep in mind that in the Warp - the preferred method of transportation even back then - time and distance have no meaning. All it'd take would be something like these hypothetical rebels escaping in a Warp-capable cutter (the likes of which sometimes mentioned in various Inquisition novels) and they could go literally anywhere. Or perhaps they just opened the airlock and jettisoned those pods into the Immaterium, believing they'd be forever lost.

Fair enough. I'd accept "dump it into the warp" as an idea, but if trying to get rid of them, the effort involved in capturing them and taking them off terra is probably less than just killing them. If the chaos gods are essentially saying "do this!", fair enough. There were definitely enough psykers and loonies amongst the assorted warlords namechecked as being around during the end of the unification wars that one of them might have been a disciple of chaos. Most of the interestellar-capable elements (especially the archaeotech bits) came from either Mars or Saturn rather than terra, though (not that that invalidates the idea).

mean, if you look at it that way, if Chaos truly was involved at all, and wanted to hide the Primarchs, why not just hide them where Imperial forces could never go ... in the Warp itself? Or at the very least within the Eye of Terror? Don't you think it's awfully convenient how the Emperor just managed to collect them all in time as his crusade coincidentally passed those worlds? That an entity that exists in the Warp would try to hide something in realspace?

Because one thing you see in Aurelian, First Heretic and Vengeful Spirit is that you're right; stealing the nascent primarchs was essentially the chaos god's backup plan to get even with the Emperor for stealing from them/welching on the deal (depending on what the hell actually happened on Molech).

They didn't want to steal the primarchs or kill them (because, as you say, they simply would never have come out of the warp if that was the plan). They wanted to get at them, poke them a bit in the warp, put them in places to grow up where their servants could corrupt them (or at least lay the situational foundation for corrupting them) and then hand them back and watch the dominos fall (prodding them occasionally in key places like Davin or Cadia)

As far as the emperor 'coincidentally' passing those worlds, there is definitely no coincidence about it; it's strongly implied he knew where the relevant worlds were - not necessarily initially, but certainly as he moved through the galaxy, he became aware when there was one nearby (there are mentions of him 'diverting' elements of a crusade fleet to encounter primarchs).

Certainly, that's what novels do. I just wish these would do so without so much needless contradiction to earlier sources, and without such a huge impact on the atmosphere and narrative style of the entire setting -- although this is, of course, a very subjective matter, and many fans will have perceived 40k as more of a "superhero" thing even before the HH novels, just by taking various myths and legends (in Index Astartes specifically mentioned as oral tradition) at face value rather than reading between the lines and questioning the veracity of certain claims such as, say, Ferrus Manus supposedly carrying an entire mountain range across a body of water.

I understand, and I can accept that feeling. Personally, I don't feel the 'feel' has changed that much since second edition (original rogue trader was something of an exception - I'm not lumping Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Cluseau in this, but Jaq Draco onwards). I'm not advocating the Gorgon carrying mountains, or Russ drinking every barrel of ale in Asaheim in an hour. But there are tiers of 'superhuman' ability which is not to unrealistic given the sort of things astartes (and even plain old power armoured humans) have been known to survive or achieve. The very first WD article which introduced the Crux Terminatus invulnerable save, for example, had a wolf guard terminator surviving(ish) being stepped on by a scout titan.

At the same time, there are real elements of superhero-ness that are 'real' in the setting, not just myths; Bloodthirsters, for example, are known to be real(ish), and the blood angels don't just imagine myths they've been told - they see the final parts of the siege and the boarding of the Vengeful Spirit, live in HD - albeit through a glass darkly when trying to communicate it to anyone else due to the whole "frothing insanity" thing. The Ka'Banda/Sanguinius thing is so key to the blood angels backstory that dismissing it as "it's just an oral tradition" seems a bit of a disservice to them as a narrative entity. Which, in turn, implies certain minimum abilities for Sanguinius to fight Ka'Banda in any way as a peer.

Edited by Magnus Grendel
It obviously makes less sense in the context of the HH novels, where Primarchs are all but invulnerable to conventional weapons

Traitors-Primarchs. Loyal Primarchs regularly shows weaknesses: Corax almost killed by group of genetically-enhanced humans, Gulliman almost killed by squad of Alpha-legionairs under Ultramarines cover. El'Jonson and Gulliman together can't do anything with Curze - and this is after Lion first beat Curze in fight and then successfully tracked and almost killed Curze in depths of Invincible Reason... etc, etc...

No, it isn't. Well....it is, but not recreating them. It's founding new chapters using existing gene-seed, like taking a cutting from a plant, not creating new gene-seed lines.

It wasn't "just" that. These Marine Chapters were created and some of them are still in existence; the Black Dragons, for example, were active in the Third War for Armageddon.

And it's obvious that the facility mentioned in the source was also working on "recreating" something else, something that was larger, stronger and more resilient than the Astartes. As such, I'd ask: what else could it be? If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, ...

Yes and no. It's been republished under the horus heresy imprint to include the Neil Roberts cover art (which is awesome) but the text (which has never been changed) and the bulk of the images dates back to when it was first published as an artbook alongside the sabretooth CCG well over a decade ago - more or less contemporary with the Index Astartes, in fact.

Ah, yes; apparently it's a collection of four individual tomes that were published at around 2004-2008?

Still, it was a Black Library book , and so like any novel has a good chance of deviating from codex fluff. Unlike the Index Astartes, which was published in White Dwarf and written by the same team that design the codices.

I understand, and I can accept that feeling. Personally, I don't feel the 'feel' has changed that much since second edition (original rogue trader was something of an exception - I'm not lumping Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Cluseau in this, but Jaq Draco onwards). I'm not advocating the Gorgon carrying mountains, or Russ drinking every barrel of ale in Asaheim in an hour. But there are tiers of 'superhuman' ability which is not to unrealistic given the sort of things astartes (and even plain old power armoured humans) have been known to survive or achieve. The very first WD article which introduced the Crux Terminatus invulnerable save, for example, had a wolf guard terminator surviving(ish) being stepped on by a scout titan.

At the same time, there are real elements of superhero-ness that are 'real' in the setting, not just myths; Bloodthirsters, for example, are known to be real(ish), and the blood angels don't just imagine myths they've been told - they see the final parts of the siege and the boarding of the Vengeful Spirit, live in HD - albeit through a glass darkly when trying to communicate it to anyone else due to the whole "frothing insanity" thing. The Ka'Banda/Sanguinius thing is so key to the blood angels backstory that dismissing it as "it's just an oral tradition" seems a bit of a disservice to them as a narrative entity. Which, in turn, implies certain minimum abilities for Sanguinius to fight Ka'Banda in any way as a peer.

I guess it comes down to just where we draw the line between "badass" and "superhuman", which is probably going to vary from person to person, too. And the former I can accept, as long as it preserves a certain weakness and vulnerability that maintains the Grim Darkness of 40k. The latter, not so much.

And it often depends on just how a feat is presented. Taking the Terminator you mention, for example, it could rest entirely on how soft the ground was. I'd have trouble believing that a suit of TDA was so hard it'd perfectly resist the pressure of so many newtons -- but if the armour "just" gets dented a bit, and the armour is pushed a few centimeters into the ground to make up for the remaining pressure, having the Marine barely survive it with a few broken bones, that sounds much more in line with the atmosphere of the setting as I would want to perceive it.

If you can find that excerpt, feel free to post! I'm curious about the details.

Bloodthirsters are real because the Warp is real, and the Blood Angels relive the memories of their Primarch due to some weird genetic memory. As for Ka'Banda, from what I can see on the wiki this sounds as if it is just another example of Black Library novels (in this case Fear to Tread) one-upping and doubling down on the epic as suggested in the studio material.

Traitors-Primarchs. Loyal Primarchs regularly shows weaknesses: Corax almost killed by group of genetically-enhanced humans, Gulliman almost killed by squad of Alpha-legionairs under Ultramarines cover. El'Jonson and Gulliman together can't do anything with Curze - and this is after Lion first beat Curze in fight and then successfully tracked and almost killed Curze in depths of Invincible Reason... etc, etc...

And if we'd go by the Index Astartes, Horus was almost killed by a group of normal humans. Admittedly, my criticism is based on the "outrageous" things people mention on reddit and elsewhere, but it really sounds as if the Horus Heresy is its own universe, "with its own rules and logic", as Gav Thorpe said on his blog. For example, Vulkan is a Loyalist, but apparently he is also a Perpetual; an idea I will almost certainly never warm up to. I'll keep my original Ollanius Pius, thankyouverymuch.

Admittedly, my criticism is based on the "outrageous" things people mention on reddit and elsewhere, but it really sounds as if the Horus Heresy is its own universe, "with its own rules and logic"

Well, I'm just a reader without any insider knowledge (but I've read almost all HH books), and for me it's looks like they have had an idea: "Let's tell the story about how bad guys are not so bad and good guys are not so good". The problem is that you need a really good authors for such a goal, but the quantity of good authors in BL is something around 0.5 - and they failed. Anything written good introduces "its own rules and logic" and anything written bad is... just bad.

Yeah, there are what...3 authors at BL really worth their salt? I mean there are some absolutely dreadful ones but the majority are just average to below.

Yeah, there are what...3 authors at BL really worth their salt?

Uhm... can you give some examples? Because in my list there is only Abnett - as mentioned "one half of good author" - but at least he knows the difference between novella and novel...

Yeah, there are what...3 authors at BL really worth their salt? I mean there are some absolutely dreadful ones but the majority are just average to below.

So... who are these 3 authors? :)

Personal bias aside obviously because it's a subjective thing.

Abnett

Mitchell

Farrer (I love Shira Calpurnia)

But my exposure to BL writing is relatively limited in scope.

It obviously makes less sense in the context of the HH novels, where Primarchs are all but invulnerable to conventional weapons

Traitors-Primarchs. Loyal Primarchs regularly shows weaknesses: Corax almost killed by group of genetically-enhanced humans, Gulliman almost killed by squad of Alpha-legionairs under Ultramarines cover. El'Jonson and Gulliman together can't do anything with Curze - and this is after Lion first beat Curze in fight and then successfully tracked and almost killed Curze in depths of Invincible Reason... etc, etc...

That because Roboute can be such an idiot sometimes... But yeah Curze playing his "joker imunity" card pissed me off to.

Maybe it is to make up for the fact that Vulkan is essentialy immortal at this point. Ok, I know what it is: to make the good guys seem more human. People will root for the underdog after all. But I'm gonna asume as the series goes on the plot armor of the good guys will kick in aswel.